Nakshatra and Stars

1
Hi

I want to reopen a topic already debated in another thread of this forum: the relation between the Nakshatras and the fixed star they relate.

In the past times i've been studding the relations of the fixed stars with the Nakshastras, it seams clear to me that if the Nakshastras were based on asterisms, that I would like to understand better which ones are they in order to deepen my understanding of the Nakshastras.

The Surya-Siddhanta as well as other sources mentions this relations in a very clear way, nevertheless there are some doubts that are still in my mind.

The main matter is which fiducial point should one consider when defining the Nakshastras. The more common option nowadays is to sync the 0? Ashvini with the 0? Aries (Sideral), doing this there some fixed stars that are misplaced regarding their Nakshastras:

Betelgeuse is in Mrigashirsha insteed of Arda

Arcturus is in Chitta insted of Svati

Shaula and Lesath are really in the transitions between Jyeshtha and Mula
etc...

In the Surya Siddanta it's mention that the star zeta Pis is the one that marks the begin of Revati, and this star is at the moment in 26? Pis - So this means that Revati should begin in 26? Pis and not in 16?40' Pis. ???
This will also change the relative position of the fixed stars regarding their Nakshastras.

Other hypothesis is liked with the Pleiades. We know that in circa 2000 BC the Vernal point was the Pleiades and that this point was also the mark for Krittika. If we look at the ancient lists of Nakshastras Krittika appears as the 1st one on the list. Would this means that the fiducial point of the Nakshastras is linked with the vernal point? I not very inclined for this, but still is a hypothesis one should consider. Or at least it looks as if the list / order of the Nakshastras changes in time. I think there are recordings of different orders that relates to the vernal point.

Other big problem is Spica and Arcturus, it's said that Spica rules over Chitta and Arcturus over Svati, but as they are so closed together it's impossible that Arcturus in in Svati, unless we make the division between Chitta and Svati go trough these 2 stars. So Spica would be the very end of Chitta and Arcturus the begin of Svati.

Other issue is the link between Vega and Abhijit:
From the books were are told that the Abhijit Nakshatra extends from 6* 40' to 10 *53 of Sign Capricorn and that is ruled by the star Vega (a Lyr) and the presiding deity is Brahma. But when we look at the zodiacal place of the star Vega, she's in 21* 19 Sagittarius... in Purva Ashada


Well... as you see i've a lot in my head...

Looking forward to hear your feed-backs on these matters. :)

Ricardo

2
Hi Ricardo!

It's nice to see a new name here on Skyscript. You've mentioned several ideas in your post, and I'll have to think more about a reply. However, one point is clear, and that is the ancient nakshatras had no boundaries. They were simply single stars or groups of stars or asterisms.

Then when the 27-fold division was introduced equal boundaries were formed. These 27 divisions are really lunar mansions and not the ancient nakshatras at all. So we have two different concepts: the old nakshatras and today's lunar mansions. Although these mansions have the same names as the ancient nakshatras, they are really not the same, though in the majority of cases the nakshatra of he same name falls within the appropriate mansion

But, as you pointed out, Arcturus and Spica cannot be in different mansions. They are both located near the center of Chitra, and with the Lahiri ayanamsa Spica marks the junction between Virgo and Libra.

Many years ago I made a table of the 27 lunar mansions, and the stars that are actually in those mansions. I thought the table was on my web site, but I checked, and it isn't there. I'll have to see if I can find a way to post the table. It was typed in WordPerfect on an old computer (Windows 95 or 98?), probably in the 1990s.

A little later I'll reply to other points in your post unless someone else replies first.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

3
Hello Therese

Thank you for the reply.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
However, one point is clear, and that is the ancient nakshatras had no boundaries. They were simply single stars or groups of stars or asterisms.

Then when the 27-fold division was introduced equal boundaries were formed. These 27 divisions are really lunar mansions and not the ancient nakshatras at all. So we have two different concepts: the old nakshatras and today's lunar mansions. Although these mansions have the same names as the ancient nakshatras, they are really not the same, though in the majority of cases the nakshatra of he same name falls within the appropriate mansion.

True that in the ancient nakshatras didn't had no boundaries, but as far as I know, they were also used to track time. It's a quite natural if one look at the sky to see the moon "travelling" each night into different areas of the sky. It's true that maybe the divisions were not so well defined, but I tend to imagine they were regular, as the movement of the moon is.
It would be great to know when is the 1st recording of the division of the arc in 27 sections.... somewhere in siddhantic times ? or even before ? Does anyone know?


Therese Hamilton wrote: Many years ago I made a table of the 27 lunar mansions, and the stars that are actually in those mansions. I thought the table was on my web site, but I checked, and it isn't there. I'll have to see if I can find a way to post the table. It was typed in WordPerfect on an old computer (Windows 95 or 98?), probably in the 1990s.
I have this already , and I can also share it with the other persons in the forum.
I made a wheel were one can see the actual position of the stars , as well as other important astrological informations. I can send it by email ( PM me)
Check this the pic below for a snippet :

Image

4
Ricardo Moola wrote:
It would be great to know when is the 1st recording of the division of the arc in 27 sections.... somewhere in siddhantic times ? or even before ? Does anyone know?
Martin Gansten posted this on August 18, 2012:

"According to Prof. Michio Yano (I haven't checked this for myself, but I have no reason to doubt him) the 27 equal mansions go back to the Taittir?ya-sa?hit?. Difficult to be precise about dates, as nearly always in India, but it's definitely BCE, so quite a while ago."
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... c&start=15
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

5
Yes, sure. The list and order of the Nakshatras is really old and can be tracked back to the Taittir?ya-sa?hit? and the rest of the Vedas is full with references.
Regarding this check the book of David Frawley - "Gods, Sages and Kings"

My question was referring to the actual division of arc in 13?20'.

6
Ricardo Moola wrote:
My question was referring to the actual division of arc in 13?20'.
That division is what Martin Gansten was referring to: "27 equal mansions." [of 13? 20' each]

Ricardo, it seems that English isn't your native language (Congratulations on knowing more than one language!!), so it's difficult sometimes to fully comprehend what someone writes.

So knowing that the 27 or 28 ancient nakshatras are different than the 27 equal lunar mansions, I'm not quite clear on the questions you are asking. Are you asking how the mansions (or nakshatras) should be applied in practice?

It seems that over the centuries (especially in the 20th century) the lunar mansions have taken on a life of their own, and are greatly expanded from the short descriptions of nakshatras in the older texts. Kenneth Johnson has pointed out elsewhere that Ernst Wilhelm's Classical Mahurta is helpful in understanding how nakshatras were applied in practical ways.

But so much material on the lunar mansions is very new. The 27 equal mansions are a big research area, and they have been further divided into quadrants (the navamsas).

The all important question remains: Which concepts and rulerships apply only to the ancient nakshatra stars and asterisms, and which apply to one of the equal 27 lunar mansions? It seems obvious to me that any general influence a lunar mansion might have isn't specifically related to the ancient nakshatras as they were most likely limited in area to a few degrees.

The sky is full of stars which we may suppose have their own specific influences. It's possible that lunar mansion influences may directly relate to constellations within the boundaries of each mansion, and of course some of these will correlate with the ancient nakshatra stars.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

7
Hello Therese
Therese Hamilton wrote: That division is what Martin Gansten was referring to: "27 equal mansions." [of 13? 20' each]
You are right. I misread the quote.
Therese Hamilton wrote: Ricardo, it seems that English isn't your native language (Congratulations on knowing more than one language!!), so it's difficult sometimes to fully comprehend what someone writes.
True, English is not my native language, is one of the 5 languages I know beside my mother tongue. Sometimes it's hard to be perfectly correct, so sorry for any misunderstanding.
Therese Hamilton wrote: So knowing that the 27 or 28 ancient nakshatras are different than the 27 equal lunar mansions, I'm not quite clear on the questions you are asking. Are you asking how the mansions (or nakshatras) should be applied in practice?

I think we do have different perspectives on this matter. I don't make any distinction between the nakshatras and the lunar mansions. On the same way I don't any distinction between the zodiac constellations and the signs, this is one of the main reason I use the whole sign house system. For me in both cases ( nakshatra/lunar mansions and constellations/signs) they are the same.

My main question is : if the stars become completely out of sync with the nakshastras they are associated. How one should react to that.
Therese Hamilton wrote: It seems obvious to me that any general influence a lunar mansion might have isn't specifically related to the ancient nakshatras as they were most likely limited in area to a few degrees.
I'm afraid I will have to disagree. In my option the lunar mansions are influenced by the nakshatras and theirs stars. This is why i consider relevant the debate about this matter.
Therese Hamilton wrote: It's possible that lunar mansion influences may directly relate to constellations within the boundaries of each mansion, and of course some of these will correlate with the ancient nakshatra stars.
This is my believe, so this is why I don'y fully understand for instances, the situation of Spica (Chitta) and Arcturus (Svati).
Even if one makes sky simulations 2000 BCE or even before, somethings still don't make sense. Although this exercise of archeo-astrology is really interesting.

Of course the stars are moving and moving in different directions and speeds. Maybe it's an inglorious task to keep track of all this changes and try to fix them in a format that was devolved so long ago.

8
Ricardo Moola wrote:
I'm afraid I will have to disagree. In my option the lunar mansions are influenced by the nakshatras and theirs stars. This is why I consider relevant the debate about this matter.
Then it would seem you believe that we must "adjust" the nakshatra stars to place them in the mansion in which they are really located? Would you place both Spica and Arcturus in Chitra? This then makes the feet of Virgo and the Southern Cross the stars of Swati.

It's interesting that in the more modern books the goddess Saraswati has come to be associated with Swati. This association was not seen in the ancient past. Has this new association come about due to the influence of stars that are actually in Swati's mansion? Should Chitra then somehow combine the symbolism of both Arcturus and Spica? It doesn't seem that we can simply "pretend" that Arcturus is located in Swati when using ecliptical measurement.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

9
Dears.. it's will be long post, but it has a reason.
Therese Hamilton wrote: Then it would seem you believe that we must "adjust" the nakshatra stars to place them in the mansion in which they are really located? Would you place both Spica and Arcturus in Chitra? This then makes the feet of Virgo and the Southern Cross the stars of Swati.
I think the stars can not be adjust, as the are "fixed". Although we know now that actually they move (and a lot). Nevertheless if there is some kind of adjustment to be made is on the boundaries of the mansions. As I will suggest latter.
Therese Hamilton wrote: This then makes the feet of Virgo and the Southern Cross the stars of Swati.

On the study made by Dr. S.Balakrishna, he redefines all the starts of the mansions, with the argument that they should be in the ecliptic. In this his perspective the feet of Virgo are the stars of Swati. Although the study revels interesting aspects and relations, I personally have some reservations regarding this approach.

*****

- The "27 Nakshatras" versus the "28 Nakshastras"

In my recent studies of this matter, I made a comparison between the 27 and 28 version of the Nakshastras.
As we all know there are lists that include a 28th Nakshastra - Abhijit. On the Atharvaveda it's mentioned and also later on. At a certain point in time, the list gets reduced to 27 and it stayed like that until now. Nowadays Abhijit its mainly in electional astrology.

I made two simple list for both versions to compare them:
-27th with the equal division of 13? 20?
-28th with the equal division of 12? 51?

Please note:
- These two lists are not the final versions, and might have some mistakes, so please bear with me.
- The lists consist of the boundaries of the mansions and the starts that fall into that space. I did not use all the starts associated with the nakshastras mansion, just the main ones, in order to see what is the difference between the two versions.
- When I write "rightly placed", I'm referring to the most common associated starts of the nakshastras. The ones you will find in most of the books and online. The name of the starts I use, are their common and Arabic names you find more easily on books and on the net.
- It's more easy to compare the 2 lists side by side, but here I don't have means to do it, so I invite you to copy-paste them into two documents in order to see them side by side.
- If you don't want to see the all the list, jump to the end for some initial conclusions.

***

27 Nakshatra - 13? 20?
  • Ashvini - 0? - 13?20' Aires
    Sheratan - 10?00? Aires (rightly placed)

    Bharani - 13? 20' - 26?40' Aires
    Bharani - 24?12? Aires (rightly placed)

    Krittika - 26?40' Aires - 10? Taurus
    Pleiades - 05?00? Taurus (rightly placed)

    Rohini - 10? - 23?20' Taurus
    Aldebaran - 15?47? Taurus (rightly placed)

    Mrigashirsha - 23? 20' Taurus - 6? 40' Gemini
    Bellatrix - 26?57? Taurus (rightly placed)
    Betelgeuse - 04?45? Gemini (wrongly placed, it belongs to Arda)

    Arda - 6? 40' - 20? Gemini
    ???

    Punarvasu - 20? Gemini - 3?20' Cancer
    Castor - 26?14? Gemini (rightly placed)
    Pollux - 29?13 Gemini (rightly placed)

    Pushya - 3?20' -16?40' Cancer
    ???

    Ashlesha - 16?40' - 30? Cancer
    Praesepe - 17?05? Cancer (wrongly placed, it belongs to Pushya)
    z-Hydra - 21?50? Cancer (rightly placed)

    Magha - 0? - 13?20' Leo
    Regulus - 05?50 Leo (rightly placed)

    Purva Phalguni - 13?20' - 26?40' Leo
    Zosma - 17?19? Leo (rightly placed)
    Chertan - 19?25? Leo (rightly placed)

    Uttara Phalguni - 26?40' Leo- 10? Virgo
    Denebola - 27?37 Leo (rightly placed)

    Hasta - 10? - 23?20' Virgo
    Alchiba - 12?10 Virgo (rightly placed)

    Chitta - 23?20' Virgo - 6?40' Libra
    Spica - 29?50? Virgo (rightly placed)
    Arcturus - 00?14? Libra (wrongly placed, it belongs to Svati)

    Svati - 6?40' - 20? Libra
    ???

    Vishakha - 20? Libra - 3?20' Scorpio
    Zuben Elgenubi - 21?05? Libra (rightly placed)
    Zuben Elschemali - 25?22? Libra (rightly placed)

    Anuradha - 3?20' - 16?40' Scorpio
    Acrab - 09?11? Scorpio (rightly placed)

    Jyeshtha - 16?40' - 30? Scorpio
    Antares - 15?46? Scorpio (rightly placed)
    Shaula - 30?00 Scorpio (wrongly placed, it belongs to Mula)

    Mula - 0? - 13?20' Sagittarius
    Kaus Media - 10?35 Sagittarius (wrongly placed, it belongs to Purva Ashadha)

    Purva Ashadha - 13?20' - 26?40' Sagittarius
    Ascella - 19?38? Sagittarius (wrongly placed, it belongs to Uttara Ashada)
    Vega - 21?19? Sagittarius

    Uttara Ashadha - 26?40' Sagittarius - 10? Capricorn
    Altair - 07?47? Capricorn (wrongly placed, it belongs to Shravana)

    Shravana - 10? - 23?20' Capricorn
    Rotanev - 23?05 Capricorn (wrongly placed, it belongs to Dhanishta)

    Dhanishta - 23?20' Capricorn - 6?40' Aquarius
    ???

    Shatabhisha - 6?40' - 20? Aquarius
    Sadachbia - 12?43? Aquarius (rightly placed)

    Purva Bhadrapada - 20? Aquarius - 3?20' Pisces
    Markab - 29?29? Aquarius (rightly placed)

    Uttara Bhadrapada - 3?20' - 16?40' Pisces
    Scheat - 05? 22? Pisces (wrongly placed, it belongs to Purva Bhadrapada)
    Algenib - 15? 06 Pisces (rightly placed)

    Revati - 16?40' - 30? Pisces
    Alpheraz - 20? 18? Pisces (wrongly placed, it belongs to Uttara Bhadrapada)
    z-Pisces - 25?54 Pisces (rightly placed)

*****

28 Nakshatra - 12? 51?

  • Ashvini - 0? - 12?51? Aires
    Sheratan - 10?00? Aires (rightly placed)

    Bharani - 12? 51? - 25?42? Aires
    Bharani - 24?12? Aires (rightly placed)

    Krittika - 25?42? Aires - 8?33? Taurus
    Pleiades - 05?00? Taurus (rightly placed)

    Rohini - 8?33? - 21?24? Taurus
    Aldebaran - 15?47? Taurus (rightly placed)

    Mrigashirsha - 21? 24? Taurus - 4? 15? Gemini
    Bellatrix - 26?57? Taurus (rightly placed)

    Arda - 4? 15? - 17?06? Gemini
    Betelgeuse - 04?45? Gemini (rightly placed)

    Punarvasu - 17?06? - 30? Gemini
    Castor - 26?14? Gemini (rightly placed)
    Pollux - 29?13 Gemini (rightly placed)

    Pushya - 0? - 12?51? Cancer
    ???

    Ashlesha - 12? 51? - 25?42? Cancer
    Praesepe - 17?05? Cancer (wrongly placed, it belongs to Pushya)
    z-Hydra - 21?50? Cancer (rightly placed)

    Magha - 25?42? Cancer - 8?33? Leo
    Regulus - 05?50 Leo (rightly placed)

    Purva Phalguni - 8?33? - 21?24? Leo
    Zosma - 17?19? Leo (rightly placed)
    Chertan - 19?25? Leo (rightly placed)

    Uttara Phalguni - 21? 24? Leo- 4? 15? Virgo
    Denebola - 27?37 Leo(rightly placed)

    Hasta - 4? 15? - 17?06? Virgo
    Alchiba - 12?10 Virgo (rightly placed)

    Chitta - 17?06? - 30? Virgo
    Spica - 29?50? Virgo (rightly placed)

    Svati - 0? - 12?51 Libra
    Arcturus - 00?14? Libra (rightly placed)

    Vishakha - 12? 51? - 25?42? Libra
    Zuben Elgenubi - 21?05? Libra (rightly placed)
    Zuben Elschemali - 25?22? Libra (rightly placed)

    Anuradha - 25?42? Libra - 8?33? Scorpio
    ???

    Jyeshtha - 8?33? - 21?24? Scorpio
    Acrab - 09?11? Scorpio (wrongly placed, it belongs to Anuradha)
    Antares - 15?46? Scorpio (rightly placed)

    Mula - 21?24? Scorpio - 4? 15? Sagittarius
    Shaula - 30?00 Scorpio (rightly placed)

    Purva Ashadha - 4? 15? - 17?06? Sagittarius
    Kaus Media - 10?35 Sagittarius (rightly placed)

    Uttara Ashadha - 17?06? - 30? Sagittarius
    Ascella - 19?38? Sagittarius (rightly placed)
    Vega - 21?19? Sagittarius (wrongly placed, it belongs to Abhijit)

    Abhijit - 0? - 12?51? Capricorn
    Altair - 07?47? Capricorn (wrongly placed, it belongs to Shravana)

    Shravana - 12? 51? - 25?42? Capricorn
    Rotanev - 23?05 Capricorn (wrongly placed, it belongs to Dhanishta)

    Dhanishta - 25?42? Capricorn - 8?33? Aquarius
    ???

    Shatabhisha - 8?33? - 21?24? Aquarius
    Sadachbia - 12?43? Aquarius (rightly placed)

    Purva Bhadrapada - 21?24? Aquarius - 4? 15? Pisces
    Markab - 29?29? Aquarius (rightly placed)

    Uttara Bhadrapada - 4? 15? - 17?06? Pisces
    Scheat - 05? 22? Pisces (wrongly placed, it belongs to Purva Bhadrapada)
    Algenib - 15? 06 Pisces (rightly placed)

    Revati - 17?06? - 30? Pisces
    Alpheraz - 20? 18? Pisces (wrongly placed, it belongs to Uttara Bhadrapada)
    z-Pisces - 25?54 Pisces (rightly placed)

****

Some initial conclusions that one might take from the 28. version:

- Betelgeuse is in the right place - Arda
- Praesepe - the main star-cluster of Pushya it's still out of place
- Arcturus is finally in it's right place - Svati
- Acrab - associated with Anuradha it's now wrongly placed in Jyeshtha
- Shaula - got its right placement in Mula
- Kaus Media - got it's right placement in Purva Ashadha
- Ascella - got it's right placement in Uttara Ashadha
- Vega - is wrongly placed in Uttara Ashadha , it belongs to Abhijit
- Altair - is still out of place
- Rotanev - also still out of place
- Scheat - still out of place
- Alpheraz - still out of place


Well... my general feeling is that it didn't got worse ! Actually many of the misplacement that are present in the 27. version ( and they were a lot) , now fall into their right place on the 28. version.

With this 28. version, one can also establish more parallelisms with the Arabic and Chinese lunar mansions, that also have 28 mansions.

Well... it as a long post... but I'm looking forward to your comments.

Best Regards. Ricardo

11
Therese Hamilton wrote:Ricardo, you didn't say which ayanamsa you are using for these calculations? (This is just for everyone's general information.)
Yes, sorry about that - I used Lahiri Ayanamsha, but as I said these were rough calculations just to check. I need to make a more accurate list.

By the way, does anyone know if there is a list of stars already with the Lahiri Ayanamsha ? I only find list with the tropical longitude.

12
Ricardo Moola wrote:
By the way, does anyone know if there is a list of stars already with the Lahiri Ayanamsha ? I only find list with the tropical longitude.
I've converted Michael Erlewine's list of 768 fixed stars to Krishnamurti. The tropical longitudes were available on Anne Wright's site.

But may I ask where you found the longitude of Bharani (41 Arietis)? Erlewine's list doesn't include stars that small, and I haven't been able to find the tropical longitudes of stars in that asterism (35, 39, 41 Arietis). On my star map they are well within the mansion of Bharani. (27-fold division)

Some of your longitudes aren't correct with Lahiri's ayanamsa. But it's late tonight, so I'll write more about this tomorrow. I do have the exact Krishnamurti longitudes for most nakshatra stars. These can be adjusted to Lahiri by subtracting six minutes.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm