76
An email correspondent recommended Abhyankar's book earlier this year. I purchased it through Amazon from Exotic India for USD $27 in July. Another North American email correspondent also purchased the book from the same company and commented that the book arrived in only a few days. It looks like we may have been fortunate enough to find the last two easily obtainable copies of Abhyankar's book!

The definition of cosmology I gave is standard in today's dictionaries. Unlike astrology, academic disciplines have to keep to standard well defined terminology. Otherwise no one would understand what another person is saying. If we're talking about the relationship of nakshatras to the ecliptic or equator, that is astronomy rather than cosmology.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

77
Mark wrote:
(...) Indeed Abhyankar is so keen to reject a non-ecliptical nature to the nakshatras that he even suggests the 28th Nakshatra Abhijit traditionally associated with the star Vega has been misidentified and is really the star Altair.
But how would this change of stars support the ecliptical measurement of Altair?? Altair practically sits on top of the celestial equator (declination +8?51') while its latitude (distance from the ecliptic) is much larger at +29?18'. Abhyankar points out that Altair falls within the ecliptical longitude designated for Abhijit whereas Vega is located in Purva Ashada in Sagittarius.

I don't know why we would want to argue with Abhyanakar, a professionally trained scholar who has specialized in classical works and has multiple books and articles in print. As astrologers we don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to the mathematics of astronomy. We have only our personal opinions and belief systems.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.insa.nic.in/writereaddata/Up ... ituary.pdf
BEGIN QUOTE:
OBITUARY: K D ABHYANKAR (1928-2007)
Professor K D Abhyankar, Indian astrophysist, teacher and well known populariser of astronomy, passed away in Hyderabad (AP) on 8 November 2007 at the age of 79. He was born on 21st June, 1928 and showed signs of brilliance from his childhood. He procured gold medals at high school and colleges.

After completion of his M.Sc. from Agra University, he worked for a short period at Holkar College, Indore. He obtained a Government of India senior research fellowship and worked at Kodaikanal Observatory during 1952-1954. He was awarded a scholarship for doctoral studies at the University of California at Berkeley.

He worked for his Ph.D. thesis, under the supervisorship of Otto Struve, and studied several close binary stars with a view to understanding stellar evolution. He discovered a short period variable AD CMi. The work done by by him for his Ph. D thesis was a masterpiece and has been well quoted...(etc.)
END OF QUOTE
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

78
Therese Hamilton wrote:
I don't know why we would want to argue with Abhyanakar, a professionally trained scholar who has specialized in classical works and has multiple books and articles in print. As astrologers we don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to the mathematics of astronomy. We have only our personal opinions and belief systems.
While Abhyanakar wrote numerous publications they were all about modern astronomical topics aside from this work. As far as I know he was not a leading historian or linguist. But you have his book. If I am wrong in that view I am sure you will correct me. In any case I am not in a position agree or disagree with the views of the late Dr Abhyanakar as I haven't even read his bookyet. I was simply reporting his idiosyncratic view on the Nakshatra of Abhijit.

Academic opinion is seldom monolithic Therese. It positively thrives on dialectic and disagreement. And other academics have reached different conclusions based on the same evidence. Knowledge seldom progresses through obsequious acquiescence to academic authority.

Your recurrent refrain on Skyscript seems to be we should all go off and do a PHD in linguistics, astronomy, or mathematics before we have the right to comment here. If we want to write books or produce peer reviewed papers that may be a legitimate view. However, this is a discussion forum intended to stimulate thought. All anyone can hope to achieve here is raise a few interesting points that challenge received opinion. People are welcome to disagree and refute anything said here.

I must state Therese I find your comments here often appear intended to discourage further discussion by citing what you regard as unassailable academic authority and implying our total ignorance as astrologers. Whether intended or not it comes over as very controlling and dismissive at times and therefore seems inimical to the spirit of a discussion forum like Skyscript.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
If we're talking about the relationship of nakshatras to the ecliptic or equator, that is astronomy rather than cosmology.
Things are not that black and white as I see it. Not least if an equatorial perspective was part of a wider cosmological world view underpinning it in the pre-Siddhantic era.

There are clearly different takes on the terms like cosmology. This piece is quite useful in demonstrating my point with the discussion of how anthropologists use the term:

http://what-when-how.com/social-and-cul ... hropology/

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

79
Mark, each field of study has its professionals and experts. Would you trust a Ph.D. in linguistics to interpret an astrological birth chart? Just as the scientists who try to prove that astrology is groundless hocus pocus without studying the subject first, so we aren't really qualified to judge professional fields we haven't specialized in ourselves. We owe our respect to professionals in all fields, and that includes astrology.

It takes a lifetime of study to become proficient in the various specialty fields. This is the problem with astrology. Many read a few books, attend a few lectures or conferences and decide they can practice astrology. So, yes, I'm for more stringent education and qualifications for astrological counseling.

But this is getting off topic. I'm still waiting for someone to provide some solid evidence that India's classic techniques work better in the tropical zodiac.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

81
Therese Hamilton wrote:
Mark, each field of study has its professionals and experts. Would you trust a Ph.D. in linguistics to interpret an astrological birth chart? Just as the scientists who try to prove that astrology is groundless hocus pocus without studying the subject first, so we aren't really qualified to judge professional fields we haven't specialized in ourselves. We owe our respect to professionals in all fields, and that includes astrology.
I think you have rather misunderstood my position Therese. I would have thought it was self evident from my previous posts here on Skyscript that I am not anti-intellectual or contemptuous towards academics. Let me be more explicit.

I was essentially making two points. Firstly, academic debate is not monolithic. Its seldom that one academic has an unquestioned monopoly in regards one subject. If that does happen its usually because they are a pioneer and first to research a topic. That is certainly untrue in the field of Indian pre-Siddhantic astronomy/astrology where there are disagreements on chronology and many other issues. So I find your assertion that one single academic has essentially sowed up the whole topic quite implausible. For example, I have read works by other Indian astronomers disagreeing with both the calculations and chronology used by Dr Abhyanakar.

My second point was regarding general posters here on Skyscript. As we all know this is an astrological discussion forum intended for an open exchange of views and information. Clearly the informal level of debate here will not storm the academic barricades. Its not intended to. Still, I feel people at all levels of understanding should be encouraged to participate. However, your comments at times seem to have the opposite effect by discouraging discussions from leaving the starting blocks in topics you disagree with. By all means lets examine and fully consider existing academic research. But lets not use it as a road block to cut off interesting discussions.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
It takes a lifetime of study to become proficient in the various specialty fields. This is the problem with astrology. Many read a few books, attend a few lectures or conferences and decide they can practice astrology. So, yes, I'm for more stringent education and qualifications for astrological counseling.
You have expressed your views on this in other threads and others have put counter positions. I don?t really see the point of going over all that again here as it seems a distraction from the topic here.


Therese Hamilton wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to provide some solid evidence that India's classic techniques work better in the tropical zodiac.
Maybe I missed the big news but when was solid irrefutable evidence provided to suggest that either zodiac works in the first place? Other than the views of practitioners (on both sides) what ''solid evidence'' are you relying on?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

82
Saturnhead wrote
They are both elite research centred astrologers who have developed awesome software.
Here are a few Cochrane youtube videos addressing the matter:-
I have watched Cochrane Before and he is very pleasant to listen to.

In his video about the two zodiacs he did not take a stand for or against but held his mind openminded in the issue. He suggested that taking some random charts for wellknown people and claiming the best zodiac fits would not do. Instead he suggested to let the software do controlled research with extreme sampling. Doing searches for charts with much emphasis on certain signs.

I did a small attempt for such a deed and did a datasearch in Solar Fire software for sign emphasis with sun, Moon and Ascendant in same sign.
out of 2200 charts in the database typically I got 1 or two charts for some signs. Cancer and virgo sidereally did not produce any charts at all.
The Ascendant, Sun and Moon are the key triad of most importance in a chart. So perhaps all of them in a sign would be interesting to look at.

I thought that perhaps opening a separate thread about this would be interesting. But due to lack of time right now I Think I just post the charts shortly of the first signs searched. Maybe later I do a separate thread for this.

( I may state that my personal take in this zodicac question is that I think both work in their own way. I have used both and been satisfied then. But the stance of this falang of tropical astrologers tends to polarise the issue by claiming the tropical zodiac is the correct one, which should be used. Which in fact is the same as saying that countless astrologers in east and west using the sidereal zodiac is working in a vacum with a faulty zodiac.)
Last edited by Stefan on Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

83
Search for Sidereal Aries sun, Moon and Ascendant.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Gallieni

He was a Soldier. He was Always dressed in army dress.
Taurus tropical ascendant, moon and sun.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Gal ... seph_Simon
(Interesting comparison to Hitler who had stellium in aries sidereally
as a warlord).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taurus search
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Victoria
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Vic ... of_England

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sidereal Gemini search:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Perot,_Ross

Interesting from the sidereal wiew that he built his fortune dealing with computers and information technology. He also was a top salesman for IBM
computers.
But he is stated from tropical wiew to be a family man and he also started out in the navy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sidereal Cancer:
No hits.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sidereal Leo:

1.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Johnson,_Lyndon_B.
(Politician and power personality.)


2).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_Fraser
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Fraser,_Dawn
(Athlete and politician).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Virgo sidereal search:
No Hits.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Libra sidereal search:
No hits.

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Scorpio sidereal search:


http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Helfgott,_Gillian
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 36163.html
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Helfgott,_Gillian

(Astrologer and wife to shizophrenic Prodigy pianist
Scorpio theme sidereally of dealing with life's mysteries and also
the psyche's deeper psychology issues).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok that's all I have done so far. Maybe a thread later with more room for discussion about specific charts. Not so much research. More a fun astrological investigation. Thanks to David Cochrane.


S

84
Therese Hamilton wrote:
I'm still waiting for someone to provide some solid evidence that India's classic techniques work better in the tropical zodiac.
Thinking about my words here, I would like to reword my thoughts: On the topic of Tropical Vedic Astrology, I'd like to see a demonstration of how the tropical zodiac is used with India's astrological concepts. Data would have to be provided so the techniques could be replicated in the sidereal zodiac for comparison.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

85
Stefan wrote:
I have watched Cochrane Before and he is very pleasant to listen to.

In his video about the two zodiacs he did not take a stand for or against but held his mind openminded in the issue. He suggested that taking some random charts for wellknown people and claiming the best zodiac fits would not do. Instead he suggested to let the software do controlled research with extreme sampling. Doing searches for charts with much emphasis on certain signs.
You have the right idea, Stefan, but from past research I've done myself, I know that asking for the Sun, Moon and Ascendant produces results that are not very helpful. This is because the position of the ascendant lord is more important than the ascendant sign, and the Moon is very much influenced by aspects from planets and its nakshatra position.

I have used the computer selection approach in my posts on the sidereal forum for the Sun and ascendant in nakshatras. Sometimes the results are interesting and sometimes they seem to be a dud.

My computer searches are in the 42,000 chart ADB database, and I would be delighted if someone would run searches in the tropical zodiac. But this discontinued database runs only on XP computers, and only a few of us are still running the program on old computers.

At any rate, with pre-determined parameters, I would be happy to compare tropical searches you can run with Solar Fire with sidereal searches I can run with ADB. If you are interested, Stefan, I can open a topic for this comparison. It will take less of your time if you only need to run Tropical searches.

Below are the links to my posts that used computer generated data for the results. I have posted the exact degree of the Sun, so it's possible to do a mental adjustment to place the Sun in the following tropical sign. (Except for the tropical/sidereal overlaps which happen in the early degrees of sidereal signs.) The star-based nakshatras are the same in the tropical zodiac for the Sun's location as the stars don't move between one zodiac and the other.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7562
Aries through Cancer

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7683
Leo through Scorpio

I stopped posting on this nakshatra series because there seemed to be little interest here on Skyscript. But I think it's important to complete the zodiac posts through Pisces, so I'm going to table other projects and finish this series of posts.

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

86
That's impressing searches Therese. I will read through your material again.

But first I will conclude my little minisearch with 2200 charts. I think the results were quite fascinating actually. The sun is a karaka for career as is the ascendant (lagna) so some hints at areas of interest should be shown. It's fun to see which charts are popping up.
I did the last signs this morning and did have a few hits:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sagittarius Asc, sun and Moon sidereal search

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Le_Gallienne

http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Eva_Le_Gallienne

"Le Gallienne was born in London to an English poet of French descent, Richard Le Gallienne, and a Danish journalist, Julie Norregard.[1] After Eva's parents separated when she was three years old, she spent her childhood shuttling back and forth between Paris and Britain. She made her stage debut at the age of 15 in a 1914 production of Maurice Maeterlinck's Monna Vanna. The next year Le Gallienne sailed for New York, and then on to Arizona and California where she performed in several theatre productions. After travelling in Europe for a period of time, she returned to New York and became a Broadway .
Le Gallienne never hid her lesbianism inside the acting community, but reportedly was never comfortable with her sexuality."


So there is travels and immigration and frankness with beliefs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Capricorn asc sun and Moon search


Writer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joris-Karl_Huysmans

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Huy ... Joris-Karl

"His work expressed his deep pessimism, which had led him to the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer"

"For 32 years, Huysmans worked as a civil servant for the French Ministry of the Interior, a job he found tedious"


------------------------------------------------------------------

Aquarius No hits.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Pisces asc, sun and Moon search

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algernon_ ... _Swinburne

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Swinburne,_Algernon

Poet.
Died of alcoholic dysentery.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare with chart of Charles Baudelaire (not in this search) who had 7 planets + node in
siderial pisces. may be fitting with what Cochrane means with "extreme sampling"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Baudelaire

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Baudelaire,_Charles

Poet.

"You have to be always drunk. That?s all there is to it?it?s the only way. So as not to feel the horrible burden of time that breaks your back and bends you to the earth, you have to be continually drunk.
But on what? Wine, poetry or virtue, as you wish. But be drunk
."
Charles Baudelaire



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the search started with an Aries Military general and ended with a Pisces Poet. In the between a Gemini computer man, two Leo politicians, one of them american president Lyndon B Johnsson et.c.

87
Thank you for these searches, Stefan. I hope there's more to Pisces than poetry and alcohol! We still have the problem, however, of these searches basically bringing singleton results. So a search needs to be of a type that will draw a large enough number of charts so that (hopefully) we might begin to see patterns.

I've tried many searches with ADB, and one that seems to bring helpful results is to ask for a stellium of personal planets in a sign. This is similar to Charles Baudelaire's stellium that you mentioned. So I would suggest for extreme sampling to begin with a stellium of personal planets plus the domicile lord for each sign. This would prevent the dispositor from shifting the energy to another part of the chart.

But I would eliminate the Moon from the stellium as the Moon can bring in too many other factors. It might also be helpful to include the planet that is exalted in a sign since the (sidereal) sign does often seem to reflect the exalted planet's traits.

I think also we may have nakshatra traits mixing with sign traits which means that signs express different energies in different degree areas. As astrologers we know that trying to pin anything down with limited parameters can be difficult or impossible. But forums are places for experimentation, so we can try different approaches.

In past stellium searches I eliminated the Ascendant (influenced by too many other factors with the ascendant lord being especially important) and Moon. In my nakshatra searches I did include the Ascendant with the Sun because the degree areas were limited, and the nakshatra is supposed to influence the ascendant. So that is rather like working with 27 signs rather than twelve. But the nakshatra areas are still too broad in my opinion since each navamsa (four to each nakshatra) is supposed to have a unique expression.

In this discussion we are departing from "tropical Vedic" astrology, so where would an "Extreme Sampling" topic be placed on Skyscript? There has sometimes been a distinct anti-sidereal tone under some topics, so should an "Extreme Sampling" topic go on the sidereal forum? (I could begin with a Pisces stellium search to compare with your results, Stefan.)

Therese
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm