Rahu - Sikhi = Rasi ?

1
I remember a while back finding a post with comments by Martin about the Indian attribution of Mars-like and firey qualities to Ketu, and the probable connection with the fact that comets wre also called Ketu. Can't find it now, but I found it very interesting - I knew of ketu meaning comet, but had never thought to make the connection. And I have never found that "Rahu behaves like Saturn, Ketu like Mars" idea convincing. And I've never found the explanations of R??i as meaning "heap, pile or cluster" because e.g. it's a heap of elements before being divided up into divisional charts (I think that was in Light on Life, but wouldn't swear).
An interesting alternative etymology for R??i is that it is based on an alternative name for the South Node, ?ikhi, which makes the R??i cakra quite literally the ecliptic.
I read this on his site along time ago, but can't find it now, but numerous references can be googled,e.g.
http://www.ancientindianastrology.com/c ... &Itemid=59

I don't recommend necessarily plowing through all the maths about his ayanamsa...

What I'd like to know (Martin?) is what connotations "?ikhi" might carry in Sanskrit - could it get us away from the Ketu:comet/Mars association? And is the etymology of R??i as R?-?i potentially valid?

Thanks for any informed ideas.

Graham

Re: Rahu - Sikhi = Rasi ?

2
Graham F wrote:What I'd like to know (Martin?) is what connotations "?ikhi" might carry in Sanskrit - could it get us away from the Ketu:comet/Mars association? And is the etymology of R??i as R?-?i potentially valid?
The short answer to both questions is no, but let me elaborate a little. ?ikhin (which is the stem form; ?ikh? is the nominative) means 'having a ?ikh?', the latter word meaning 'tuft [of hair], plume, flame', etc. As such, ?ikhin is a common word for 'comet' and a synonym of ketu.

As for etymology, it's important to understand that traditional Indian etymology is basically ahistorical. Because Sanskrit is perceived as a perfect and eternal language, its historical development is a non-issue. Instead, etymology or nirukta is concerned with finding the inner (and sometimes hidden) meaning of words, often by treating them as acronyms. A single author may offer several such explanations of one and the same word, treating them all as equally valid. Common examples of this process are the words guru and ha?ha (as in ha?ha-yoga) -- try Google and you'll see.

So while the etymology R?-?i is quite clever and entertaining, it has no value from a historical point of view. The word r??i is attested already in the ?gveda and means 'heap, group, quantity' etc -- in this case probably a group of stars, or possibly ecliptical degrees.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

Re: Rahu - Sikhi = Rasi ?

3
Martin Gansten wrote:
As for etymology, it's important to understand that traditional Indian etymology is basically ahistorical. Because Sanskrit is perceived as a perfect and eternal language, its historical development is a non-issue. Instead, etymology or nirukta is concerned with finding the inner (and sometimes hidden) meaning of words, often by treating them as acronyms. A single author may offer several such explanations of one and the same word, treating them all as equally valid. Common examples of this process are the words guru and ha?ha (as in ha?ha-yoga) -- try Google and you'll see.
hi martin,
i finished reading your article posted in the astro twins and profession thread and am curious to know is the word 'karma' can be viewed in a similar manner? thanks!

5
thanks martin,

here is something from wikipedia which you may or may not agree with..
"Modern Hinduism can be regarded as a combination of Vedic and Shramana traditions as it is substantially influenced by both traditions.Though ideas of Karma, Liberation and Samsara are present in the early vedic texts, concise arguments and definitions arose from the Shramana tradition."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana

6
Graham F wrote:
I remember a while back finding a post with comments by Martin about the Indian attribution of Mars-like and firey qualities to Ketu, and the probable connection with the fact that comets wre also called Ketu. Can't find it now, but I found it very interesting - I knew of ketu meaning comet, but had never thought to make the connection.
Actually I was the one who raised this point. I include my post and Martin's reply below. I noticed that that texts like the Brihat Samhita by Varahamihira refer to comets as Ketu.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6320

To save you scouring the old thread here is the relevant bit:

Mark wrote:
This may be a bit off topic but during my research on the astrology of comets I have discovered most ancient Indian texts describe comets as Ketu. Although there are noteable exceptions, most comets are described in these texts as malefic. Ketu is often described as the dragon's tail, which gives birth to comets and meteors and is known as the descending or the south node of the Moon. I strongly suspect the south node acquired its malefic, fiery association in Indian astrology by linkage to comets.
Martin replied:

I think you are right, Mark. If I may quote myself (Brill's Encyclopedia of Hinduism, vol. I, entry 'Navagrahas' [the nine planetary deities]):
The ?gveda (5.40.5) tells of a demon named Svarbh?nu afflicting the sun with darkness. In the Atharvaveda (19.9.10), R?hu occurs as a synonym for this demon, while the Ch?ndogya-Upani?ad (8.13.1) speaks of the moon escaping ?from the mouth of R?hu.? Later texts confirm the role of R?hu (perhaps derived from a verb meaning ?to grasp?) as an eclipse demon swallowing the sun or moon.

With the increase of astronomical knowledge, eclipses were understood to be the result of the relative positions of the earth, sun and moon. As the moon passes in front of the sun near the point where their apparent orbits intersect (the lunar node), it obscures the sun and a solar eclipse occurs. When the moon is on the other side of the earth, near the opposite node, the earth?s shadow falling on the moon causes a lunar eclipse. By the early centuries CE, R?hu was thus identified with whichever lunar node happened to be involved in an eclipse. Some astronomical texts speak of the ascending or northern node as R?hu?s mouth, and of the descending or southern node as his tail.

Ketu originally had no connection with R?hu, and was not included with it in the earliest texts of Indianized Hellenistic astrology (3rd to 4th centuries CE). The Sanskrit word ketu refers to something bright, such as a flame, but also to a flag or banner. As such, it was a common word for celestial phenomena such as comets and meteors, more than a hundred of which were described in pre-Hellenistic texts on celestial omens. Eventually these Ketus were included collectively as the ninth item in the list of grahas or planets, but were still discussed in the plural. Only in the 8th or 9th century do the names R?hu and Ketu seem to acquire the meanings which they have since held, being identified with the north and south nodes of the moon, respectively.
Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

7
james_m wrote:here is something from wikipedia which you may or may not agree with..
"Modern Hinduism can be regarded as a combination of Vedic and Shramana traditions as it is substantially influenced by both traditions.
No objections thus far.
Though ideas of Karma, Liberation and Samsara are present in the early vedic texts, concise arguments and definitions arose from the Shramana tradition."
They are not present in the early Vedic texts, but appear in embryonic form in the oldest Upani?ads (such as the B?had?ra?yaka), which may reasonably be called 'late Vedic texts'. But we are drifting seriously off topic.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

8
There was no ketu in this religious text:

http://vedabase.net/sb/5/24/2/en
R?hu is inimical toward both the sun and the moon, and therefore he always tries to cover the sunshine and moonshine on the dark-moon day and full-moon night.
eve though the name was known to have existed as one of the ten sons of the third Manu:
http://vedabase.net/sb/8/1/27/en

Brihat Jataka mentions: ketu as sikhi

http://www.astrojyoti.com/brihatjatakapage1-2.htm

Brihat Parashara Hora does mention ketu and gives it Scorpio as exaltation sign.

So there is a disconnect between the early religious texts which only mention Rahu as the immortal demon harassing both Sun and Moon and the astrological texts. May be the imported astrology gave the demon's tail to the ketu as it was there for the taking and then retro fitted into mythology later.

The good thing is the Shrimad Bhagvatam then preceeds Varahamihira and I am quite happy about that :)

9
Martin Gansten wrote:
Only in the 8th or 9th century do the names R?hu and Ketu seem to acquire the meanings which they have since held, being identified with the north and south nodes of the moon, respectively.
I would be very interested to know what is the earliest source you have identified making the direct link between Rahu and Ketu to describe the nodes?

Thanks

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

10
Mark wrote:I would be very interested to know what is the earliest source you have identified making the direct link between Rahu and Ketu to describe the nodes?
A simple enough question, but one which I'm sorry to say I can't answer very well at present. I don't remember the exact reasons behind my approximate dating, but it was probably based as much on mythological accounts and iconographic evidence as on astrological texts. I don't think many texts actually state in so many words that 'Ketu is the descending node' or 'Ketu is always opposite Rahu'.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

12
Sorry I cannot imitate Martin's style by using a font with the proper transliteration, but just a remark...

I have never been comfortable with the translation "heap" for rasi, as it sounds a bit pejorative. Apte's Sanskrit Dictionary also gives "a collection" or a "quantity of something" as primary translations for rasi. Interestingly enough, the dictionary also notes that rasi may refer to a mathematical operation, so there may be a sense here of something that is defined (or divided?)mathematically (perhaps by degrees?). It could mean a quantity or collection of stars which is defined by the mathematical division of the sky into degrees.