skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
The Life & Work of Vettius Valens
by Deborah Houlding
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Origin of Precession of Equinoxes to Describe Ages?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5241
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject: Origin of Precession of Equinoxes to Describe Ages? Reply with quote

Does anyone know when the first astrological text discusses the ages in terms of the location of the equinoxes in the signs?

I am sure the Theosophists advocated this in the late 19th century but I dont know if the idea of astrological ages based on precession came before this. Clearly, this requires a knowledge of both western tropical and Indian sidereal astrology and I assume this was not widespread amongst astrologers in Europe until this period.

As a tropicalist I have always found it odd that fellow tropicalists spend so much time and energy discussing the location of the equinoxes in a different zodiac. Surely, we should be looking at things the other way round in terms of mundane cycles? To be specific rather than focusing on equinoxes moving backwards in a sidereal zodiac we should instead focus on the stars and constellations moving forwards against the background of the tropical zodiac through precession? Hence rather than discussing the 'Age of Aquarius' shouldn't we be focusing on the forthcoming movement of Regulus into Virgo in 2012? That is my perspective anyway. What do others think?
_________________
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1395

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
shouldn't we be focusing on the forthcoming movement of Regulus into Virgo in 2012?


As I still have some naivety, I thought that astrologer would discuss this at length, as this is such a huge event.

Obviously that was naive. The big news is, as always, where pluto is or isn´t, and if there is some quasar next to it. Oh, and see the charts of disasters in hindsight, snif.

But the fact is that, with such large periods of time to analyse, I really wouldn´t know where to start. Unless we use that famous book "history of the world for american and european astrologers", lots of things happened in these thousand of years. What could be the contribution of Regulus? The Roman Empire? Empires in general? Christian and Muslin jihads?


Quote:
I have even a harder time wrapping my head around precessed solar returns.


If I remember correctly, even Liz Greene has dismissed this mishmash of systems. This is a lot to say about its internal logic.
_________________
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3507
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We've had discussions on these topics in the past, i.e. when did this or that idea begin and with whom? And as Mark points out, they often begin with the Theosophists or some related late 19th-early 20th century school of thought. My guess is that the origin of this idea can be traced to a magazine article in the 1960s or 70s, a popular song promoted it, and it just stuck.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5241
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We've had discussions on these topics in the past, i.e. when did this or that idea begin and with whom? And as Mark points out, they often begin with the Theosophists or some related late 19th-early 20th century school of thought. My guess is that the origin of this idea can be traced to a magazine article in the 1960s or 70s, a popular song promoted it, and it just stuck.


Its seems another figure beloved of modern astrology has had an impact on this topic. In particular the Swiss psychologist Carl Gustav Jung. He apparently discussed the symbolism of Christianity and Pisces in relation to precesion of the equinoxes in his book Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self . This was first published in 1951.

However, I do have a strong recollection that much older Theosophical works mentioned this. I seem to remember reading a Theosophical book many years ago where this came up. Unfortunately, I neither have the time or inclination at present to wade through the collected writings of Blatavsky, Colonel Olcott, Annie Besant or Paul Brunton.
_________________
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3507
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a quick, very quick spin through Wiki, Campion and a couple of books I have. My guess is, and that's all it is - a guess, that this idea was first posited by the Rosicrucians sometime in the early 20th century, perhaps as late as the late 1920s. Whatever the exact date, it is not something entertained by early astrologers, and it is a clear case of hindsight astrology.

None of the Wiki articles I perused mentioned the source of the idea only that the idea had resulted in a lot of different opinions as to when the Age of Aquarius begins.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:

Its seems another figure beloved of modern astrology has had an impact on this topic. In particular the Swiss psychologist Carl Gustav Jung. He apparently discussed the symbolism of Christianity and Pisces in relation to precesion of the equinoxes in his book Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self . This was first published in 1951.


The father of all the perversions Smile

I'm so happy to be a convert to traditional astrology,
margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 261

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject: Speculations/Precessional Ages Reply with quote

In relation to the Precession of the Equinoxes and its astrological Ages, there is a rich history that leads us back to very ancient astrological/astronomical lore. But it requires much detailed historical reading for the astrologer to glimpse a possible vast importance for astrological/astronomical significance for the Precession of the Equinoxes. But as Mark has pointed out—not many people have the time to devote to historical research pertaining to the Precession of the Equinoxes related to astrological Ages. I have been very fortunate in my astrological life to be initiated with some books that has led me to believe (intuitively), the Giza Plateau may be symbolically representing a possible World Scope with pertinent knowledge(s) for future astrologers as the Earth approaches the beginning of the Precessional Age of Aquarius. With a very detailed historic research it becomes obvious to the astrologer that the Precessional Astrological Ages of Leo, Taurus, Scorpio, and Aquarius play an important role with lore of the ancients. Without knowledge of these Precessional Astrological Ages, the astrologer is basically blind to astrological possibilities the ancients may have left us. The following are some of my posts pertaining to this matter.

“Schwaller de Lubicz believed that if ancient Egypt possessed knowledge of ultimate causes, that knowledge would be written into their monuments not in explicit texts, but represented by myth and symbol.”JohnAnthonyWest,‘SerpentintheSky’,1979.


If Bauval’s work (1996) is correct proclaiming the Giza Plateau is representing a celestial diagram pertaining to the mythological account of ‘Zep Tepi’, ‘The First Time’ in c. 10,500 BC, then the astrologer, by using precessional astronomy with a sidereal framework, can easily see that the Giza Plateau, with its ‘monuments & symbols, represents an Ascendant of 30 degrees Leo, and a Descendant of 30 degree Aquarius in the Sidereal Zodiac.

A couple of books on this topic present recent astronomical research correlating the Giza plateau as a celestial diagram to a time frame of c. 10,500 BC. Using Plato’s Great Year, the 25,920 years of the Precession cycle, this fixes 30 degree Leo rising on the ascendant, beginning the Precessional age of Leo. It appears the ancient Egyptians had astronomical knowledge for calibrating the Sidereal Zodiac for this ancient time frame. I realize this is somewhat of a mystery as to WHY the ancient Egyptians would calibrate the Sidereal Zodiac at this time of the Precession Cycle.

In the book ‘Mundane Astrology’, by Baigent/Campion/Harvey, Chapter 11, ‘Where on Earth: The Search for the Earth Zodiac’. Heading this chapter the authors quote Plato with the following words:

“The Earth looked at from Heaven, is like a ball with twelve leathern stripes, each of a different colour…”

On Page LV11 from the book by Manly P. Hall, ‘The Secret Teachings of All Ages’, we find the following words:

“The Manuscript by Thomas Taylor contains the following remarkable paragraph:”

“Plato was initiated into the ‘Greater Mysteries’ at the age of 49. The initiation took place in one of the subterranean halls of the Great Pyramid in Egypt. The ISIAC TABLE (supposedly a key to the Ancient Book of Thoth) formed the altar, before which the Divine Plato stood and received that which was always his, but which the ceremony of the Mysteries enkindled and brought from its dormant state. With this ascent, after three days in the Great Hall, he was received by the Hierophant of the Pyramid (the Hierophant was seen only by those who had passed the three days, the three degrees, the three dimensions) and gives verbally the Highest Esoteric Teachings, each accompanied with its appropriate Symbol. After a further three months’ sojourn in the halls of the Pyramid, the Initiate Plato was sent out into the world to do the work of the Great Order, as Pythagoras and Orpheus had been before him.”

“As Plato was for thirteen years under the instruction of the Magi, Patheneith, Ochoaps, Sechtnouphis, and Etymon of Sebbennithis, his philosophy consequently is permeated with the Chaldean and Egyptian system of triads.”

The author Charles Harvey in Chapter 11 of ‘Mundane Astrology’ states under the headline Astrogeography:

“Following the ancient doctrine of correspondences, many astrologers have, quite logically, considered that there ought to be some kind of natural, exact, macrocosmic-microcosmic interrelationship between the zodiac, as a whole, above, and the earth as a whole, below. If this is really the case, it is argued, then it implies the very tantalizing thought that there must be a precise, geographically plotable, ‘astrological anatomy’ of the earth, an ‘earth zodiac’, which is waiting to be discovered. Indeed, as we shall see below, many astrologers have set out in pursuit of this Rosetta stone, and some even claim to be convinced that they have discovered it.”

Chapter 11 of ‘Mundane Astrology’ goes on to give the accounts of several astrologers with their ‘earth zodiacs’. None of these astrologers begin the ‘earth zodiac’ at 30 degrees Leo located to Giza, correlated by the recent discovery of the precessional astronomical celestial diagram at Giza, using the Sidereal Zodiac.

I am going to quote some passages and point out some Emblems from Manly P. Hall’s great work, ‘The Secret Teachings of All Ages’, pertaining to things astrological as it may relate to the Celestial Diagram on the Giza Plateau. But first, I need to point out that the symbol for Scorpio has not always only been the Scorpion. In ancient cultures Scorpio was symbolized by the flying Eagle.
Quote:
Nicholas Devore, ‘Encyclopedia of Astrology’ states:
Also in the Egyptian Sphinx, in which the Bull’s body (Taurus), the Lion’s paws and tail (Leo), the Eagle’s wings (Scorpio), and the Human head (Aquarius)….They are depicted symbolically in the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and are builded into the Paris Notre Dame Cathedral, which is completely an astrological edifice as is the great Pyramid. In Revelation V: 7 one reads that “the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.”… Scorpio is reflected in a Roman nose—the eagle’s beak—have been symbolized at some periods of antiquity by the Eagle, as evidenced by the eagle’s wings on the Egyptian Sphinx (as depicted by certain Emblems).


The symbolism of these four fixed constellations of the Zodiac ‘are the subject of
innumerable allusions in art and literature.’ As I have pointed out in this topic with one of the ‘Interesting Books on Ancient Egypt’, Bauval’s great work has proven with Precessional Astronomy, Giza is ‘in fact’ a Celestial Diagram with a calibrated point (Ascendant) of 30 degree Leo (c.10,500 B.C.) in the Sidereal Zodiac, using the time frame of Plato’s great Year, the 25,920 year Precessional Cycle. The astrologer who is versed in enough astronomy with Cyril Fagan sidereal zodiac teachings can easily recognize this c.10,500 B.C. Giza scope as producing the 4 angular points as 30 degree Leo (Lion), 30 degree Taurus (Bull), 30 degree Aquarius (Man), and 30 degree Scorpio (Eagle). This c. 10,500 B.C. Giza scope does not correlate to the Tropical Zodiac for the simple reason the Sage who planned the Giza plateau was using the Sidereal Zodiac for their astronomical frame of reference with the symbolic monuments on the Giza plateau. It should also be understood that Bradely researching a massive amount of Solar & Lunar Ingress charts in the Sidereal Zodiac correlates the beginning of the Precessional Age of Aquarius (30 degree Aquarius) as c. 2,369 A.D. This means today, the Sun on the Vernal Equinox is in the ‘foreground’ (app.5 degrees) from the mathematical/astronomical beginning point of the precessional Age of Aquarius. Let us get into the ‘Secret Teachings of All Ages’ (STAA).

The STAA is a voluminous book consisting of many Emblems pertaining to Masonic, Hermetic, Qabbalistic, Rosicrucian, Symbolical Philosophy.

STAA states:
Historically the secret societies were closely identified with state religions. Basic knowledge was believed to have been bestowed by the gods in a remote age. These esoteric philosophies have always been taught by means of secret organizations. These spiritual brotherhoods of scholars, sages, and mystics have flourished among all peoples, ancient and modern, and in all parts of the world. The seventeenth century restoration of learning gradually brought about a Universal Reformation as proclaimed in the Fama of the Rosicrucians. A careful study of the emblem books of that period reveals that most of the figures and designs were based upon Egyptian or Greek mythology, and like the alchemical symbols, perpetuated the secret teachings of esoteric knowledge. The present volume (STAA) is itself made up of many symbols gathered from rare sources. It invites the thoughtful reader to explore the meanings of these emblems and devices with his own insight and for the truth seekers of the future. (STAA was first published in the 1920’s).

*Many of these Emblems are posted on the Internet with certain STAA caption words under the Emblem. I am only going to focus on subject matter in STAA which is symbolically attached to symbols of astrology, and appear to be the same astrological/astronomical symbols pertaining to Bauval’s Celestial Diagram at Giza—which could be referencing some type of World Scope.

Under STAA Table of Contents, there is only one Chapter L111 devoted to ‘The Zodiac And Its Signs’. This Chapter L111 is subtitled by ‘Primitive astronomical instruments---The equinoxes and solstices—The astrological ages of the world (Precession Cycle)—The circular zodiac of Tentyra—An interpretation of the zodiacal signs—and last but not least—The horoscope of the world. I find Mr. Hall’s choice of words “The horoscope of the world” somewhat an enigma because there is absolutely no layman words that explains anything about a ‘horoscope of the world’. I have speculated as to why Mr. Hall used the words ‘horoscope of the world’ without any explanations and can only reason he was told that there is a ‘horoscope of the world’—but remember I am only speculating with a bias mind of an astrologer. However on page LV in STAA is the Emblem of the ‘The Circular Zodiac Of Tentyra’ which is posted on the Internet with a web search. Caption words under this Circular Zodiac state:
Quote:
“The oldest circular zodiac known is the one found at Tentyra in Egypt, and now in the possession of the French Government. Leo is no doubt at the head.”


This is very interesting because Bauval’s recently discovered c.10,500 B.C. Celestial Diagram at Giza begins the precessional age of Leo with 30 degrees Leo on the Ascendant! Cyril Fagan, who I consider the greatest astrological researcher pertaining to ancient Egypt says in ‘Zodiacs Old And New’:
Quote:
“…Leo was then considered by the Egyptians as being the first of the constellations, and it is so shown in the circular zodiac…”

More words from STAA on page LV:
“…Probably the rarest form of Scorpio is that of an Eagle…This visible connection between the constellation Leo and the return of the Sun to his place of power and glory, at the summit of the Royal Arch of heaven, was the principle reason why that constellation was held in such high esteem and reverence by the ancients. The astrologers distinguished Leo as the ‘sole house of the sun’ and taught the world was created when the sun was in that constellation. ‘The lion was adored in the East and the West by the Egyptians and the Mexicans. The chief Druid of Britain was styled a lion. When the Aquarian Age is thoroughly established, the sun (heliocentric) will be in Leo. Then, indeed, will the secret religions of the world include once more the raising to initiation by the Grip of the Lion’s Paw. (Lazarus will come forth.)

Page LV11 of STAA state pertaining to Zodiac symbolism:
…the four-lettered sacred name, the Tetragrammaton, assigning Jod to Aquarius, that is Canopus, He to Taurus, that is Apis, Vau to Leo, that is Momphta, and He final to Typhon. Note the Cherubic parallel—Man, Bull, Lion and Eagle.


Here again we find zodiacal symbolism matching the c.10,500 B.C. astronomical/scope
correlation by Bauval at the Giza plateau.
Quote:
Page LX of STAA pertaining to ‘esoteric learning of the Egyptians’ with the ‘Bembine Table.’:
“…The upper panel contains the twelve figures of the zodiac arranged in four triads. The center figure in each group represents one of the four fixed signs of the zodiac. S is the sign of Aquarius; Z, Taurus; C, Leo; and G, Scorpio. These are the four fathers. In the secret teachings of the Far East these four figures—the man, the bull, the lion and the eagle—are called the winged globes or the four Maharajahs who stand upon the corners of creation…


These same symbolic ‘corners of creation’ is symbolized with the four SIDEREAL angles (Leo, Aquarius, Taurus and Scorpio) of Bauval’s c. 10,500 B.C. Giza Scope, proven by precessional astronomy.
Quote:
Opposite page CXXV of STAA we find the Emblem of ‘The Cherub Of Ezekiel’
Words under the Emblem of the ‘The Cherub Of Ezekiel’ says:
“…When the twelve tribes of Israel encamped in the wilderness, the banners of Reuben (the man), Judah (the lion), Ephraim (the bull) and Dan (the eagle) were placed at the four corners.”


Opposite page CX111 of STAA is an Emblem titled ‘The Ancient of the Ancients’ showing a very old man surrounded by the faces of the lion, the bull, the eagle and the man. Just the title of this Emblem reminds me of John Anthony West great work where he takes the science of geology presenting valid evidence the Sphinx is much more Ancient than what dogmatic academia has taught about the age of the Sphinx.

And in the Tarot Cards we find the WORLD (symbolic clue-something to do with the WORLD) Card showing the faces of the lion, the bull, the man and eagle.

The greatest art the world has witness is the last remaining wonder of our world—The Giza Plateau-- with Bauval’s recent discovery, using precessional astronomy, the four angles of the c.10,500 B.C. Giza Scope holds astrological/astronomical symbolism of the lion, the bull, the man and the eagle.

I have posted a topic ‘Interesting Books on Ancient Egypt’ under the Skyscript’s Forum, ‘News, Notices, Books, Links—if anyone is interested for more rich history-- pertaining to certain details pertaining to the Astrological Ages anchored to the Precession of the Equinoxes. Understand that these posts prove nothing—but only present possibilities from an astrological/astronomical perspective.

Regards, Steve
_________________
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
MarkC wrote:

Its seems another figure beloved of modern astrology has had an impact on this topic. In particular the Swiss psychologist Carl Gustav Jung. He apparently discussed the symbolism of Christianity and Pisces in relation to precesion of the equinoxes in his book Aion: Researches into the Phenomenology of the Self . This was first published in 1951.


The father of all the perversions Smile

I'm so happy to be a convert to traditional astrology,
margherita
One doesn't necessarily need to be a traditional astrologer to have ambivalent feelings towards the post-Blavatskyan and Jungian elements in astrology Smile .

However the concept of ages and periods is quite old, perhaps the precessional age concept too. Probably more is to be found here:
http://cura.free.fr/xx/17sepp1.html
http://cura.free.fr/xxv/21sepp2.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Speculations/Precessional Ages Reply with quote

Well, this is Aion

http://www.archive.org/details/aionresearchesin010589mbp

well, it's not so awful. Jung explains theory of Great Conjunctions quoting Boll and Albumasar.

For what I see he cannot list any previous reference to the "new aeon" based on precession. Anyway mine is a very quick look.



margherita
_________________
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5241
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In relation to the Precession of the Equinoxes and its astrological Ages, there is a rich history that leads us back to very ancient astrological/astronomical lore. But it requires much detailed historical reading for the astrologer to glimpse a possible vast importance for astrological/astronomical significance for the Precession of the Equinoxes. But as Mark has pointed out—not many people have the time to devote to historical research pertaining to the Precession of the Equinoxes related to astrological Ages.


Hello Steve,

I think you may have misunderstood where I am coming from on this topic. I happen to think historical research is very useful and worthwhile. I agree its helpful to understand where the equinoxes were in history in relation to sidereal stars and constellations. For example, its interesting that the Mesopotamians seem to have shifted the start of their zodiac from The Pleiades/Taurus to Aries/The Hired man. This seems a clear recognition of the effects of the precession.

I have no issue with siderealists like yourself seeking to describe epochs through the precession of equinoxes in the signs. My problem is rather with fellow tropicalists who adopt an essentially siderealist theory to explain history. I strongly disagree with this trend in modern tropical astrology and see it as quite an illogical stance for a tropicalist to adopt.

Hence I have recently been putting my time and effort in studying the influence of Regulus in the tropical signs going back to the Neolithic era. I believe that the shift from one immense epoch like this is not like a light switch going off/on. Rather it is a gradual process. I therefore assert we have been on the cusp of Regulus in Virgo for hundreds of years and that its influence has been even more evident in the last degree of the sign of Leo. I gave a lecture to my Astrological Association on this topic just last night and will be writing a follow up article on the topic at some stage.

I have avoided getting into a discussion of Ancient Egyptian sources with you because I do not share your implicit faith in 'alternative' amateur writers on Ancient Egypt such as Cyril Fagan, John Anthony West, Robert Bauval or Graham Hancock. They have interesting things to say at times I agree but I think the time has come to listen to the voices of academics who have returned to this subject too.

Its true that the previous generation of academic researchers were an obstacle to better understanding. Their denial that the Ancient Egyptian temples and pyramids alignments had any astronomical or astrological associations was a dogma preventing more open minded research. Fortunately, a new generation of scholars are on the scene who look at things quite differently. I would particularly like to highlight the work of the Spanish Archaeoastronomer J.A. Belmonte.

Here is a video of a talk he gave at the International Astronomical Union last year. Its entitled 'In Search of Cosmic Order'

http://www.canalc2.tv/video.asp?idvideo=8328

Belmonte and his colleagues are bringing out a book next month with the same title summarising their research. It looks well worth buying for anyone looking for solid contemporary academic research into astronomical associations of Ancient Egyptian temples and Pyramds.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=In+Search+of+Cosmic+Order&x=13&y=22

Mark
_________________
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Please note: the following is merely my own opinion based upon many years of personal dealings with various members of "American Academia", mostly involved in either its medical or Egyptology branches)

The slow movement of academia in Egyptology is in the direction of verification of what the (so-called) "amateur" Egyptologists have been saying for many decades. Also don't forget Brophy's "Origin Map"-the author being an important astrophysicist. I lack the implicit faith in the good will of academia toward unconventional subjects which some of our Skyscript members seem to hold, nor am I as impressed as they by the alleged "legitimacy" of everything which flows from academia's hallowed halls.

Sure, many of the non-academics in the field of ancient history have mixed a variety of theories and strange ideas with the facts they have also brought to light, and many have rushed to questionable conclusions.
But do not forget the bias of conventional academia regarding its fundamental view of reality: that history has been a progressive line, with mankind moving ahead from darkness and ignorance forward into the "light" of modern times: academia has not and will not present whatever facts they discover in any other way than to essentially uphold this bias. That ancients had insights equivalent to those of modern man, is held by academia to be absurd-and those few academics who have dared to question this view have been marginalized or otherwise ostracized for such views. The same situation exists in regards to academia and paranormal research, academia and alternative medicine, and academia and several other fields (including astrology)

Now I have been talking about the academic establishment of the ruling world (USA, Britain and, to a lesser degree, Western Europe) The situation is somewhat different in other parts of the academic world: the book MarkC references above is by a Spanish and 2 Egyptian academics. To a certain extent academics in certain fields of endeavor (like ancient history) outside of the ruling world (USA particularly) sometimes do not "tow the official line" in their presentations (we find this especially so in alternative medicine), at least not to the degree found among the academics of the ruling world.
It is not in objective findings and facts presented that the problem exists: it is in the opinions and "conclusions" derived from these findings and facts that (I at least) have found difficulties, and biases, and prejudices.
Regarding the field of Egyptology, with all their faults and foibles I'll take the "amateurs" over the "professional experts", any time!


Last edited by dr. farr on Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:52 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Eddy"]

One doesn't necessarily need to be a traditional astrologer to have ambivalent feelings towards the post-Blavatskyan and Jungian elements in astrology Smile .


Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion. I for one have found Theosophical concepts of some value in astrology (just like Sephariall, Alan Leo, Vivian Robson and C.E.O. Carter did) Jung? Well-as an esotericist-I consider his concepts to be kindergarten level, but I do think many of his ideas are of some value for the "character/psychological analysis" aspect of astrological natal delineation.

Regarding the antiquity of the concept regarding precession of the equinox relating to epochal changes for the world:

-for Islamic astrological considerations of a philosophical/metaphysical nature concerning precession, see Ibn Arabi (1165 AD), "Mystical Astrology According to Ibn 'Arabi", T. Burckhardt (2001) pages 48-52

-for a discussion of ancient (particularly hermetic/gnostic) concepts involving the "meaningfulness" of precession and world epochs, see "Jesus Christ: the SUN of God", D. Fideler (1993)

-for evidence (academic archeological) that the central or ultimate "secret" of the Persian/Roman Mithraic cult was directly connected with the "meaningfulness" of the precession of the equinox, see "Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries", D. Ulansey (1991: Univ. of Oxford Press)


Last edited by dr. farr on Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know if MarkC is aware of this or not, but his basic point in this thread-relating the changing signs of certain fixed stars being connected with historical changes and epochs-is a key element of a certain highly esoteric (secret) linneage which traces back at least to the early 1500's!
I fully agree with MarkC's suggestion to study the ramifications of certain stars (like Cor Leonis, as we call it) in certain signs-and in certain relationships with starry constellations and points on earth-on human events, and changes (or modulations) in epochs. Fact of the matter is that Cor Leonis moving into Virgo is, well, quite a "big deal" for the Earth...in terms of practical ramifications, much more so than the greatly anticipated "age of Aquarius"...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Levente Laszlo



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 216
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi dr. farr,

the Ulansey book is a rare example how a historical study can gain widespread popularity outside the academic circles. It is mostly due to the sensational "discovery" of precession as a core belief and central teaching in the Mysteries of Mithras. Nevertheless, popular it may be, the acceptability of a theory depends on the sources used. The Ulansey theory has several weak points, of which I would point to only two now: first, an anachronistic and hindsight approach to the Mysteries of Mithras as a religious phenomenon (the stress is on the "religious" adjective - clearly different from what it means now); second, central role attributed to the shift of "astrological ages". This latter is totally anachronistic - as it was pointed out by another well-known expert of this field, Roger L. Beck in a 1994 article titled "In the place of the Lion: Mithras in the tauroctony" which appeared in Hinnells (ed.), Studies in Mithraism.

In fact, no reference to astrological ages (in the form as they are conceived nowadays) exist prior to 19th or 20th century.

Recently, Beck published a throughout analysis of the Mithraic cult in his book The Religion of the Mithras Cult in the Roman Empire. It has a totally different and, in my opinion, rather convincing treatment of the Mysteries. Moreover, it contains several pieces of interest even for an astrologer, as he tries to reconstruct a forgotten helicoidal lunar theory and attempts to identify Antiochus of Athens. Needless to say, Ulansey's sensational but unfounded hypothesis on the role of precession in the Mysteries is dismissed. So this should be observed when his hypothesis is further utilised, like in the Fideler book or in films like Zeitgeist.

Levente
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 261

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Mark wrote:
I have avoided getting into a discussion of Ancient Egyptian sources with you because I do not share your implicit faith in 'alternative' amateur writers on Ancient Egypt such as Cyril Fagan, John Anthony West, Robert Bauval or Graham Hancock.


Hi Mark,
I do not consider Cyril Fagan, John Anthony West, Robert Bauval or Graham Hancock ‘amateur’ writers on Ancient Egypt—nor do I label my education pertaining to these writers as ‘implicit faith’. However, I would label my beliefs in Astrology as ‘implicit faith’. I consider these men as ‘alternative’, professional/ scholarly writers on Ancient Egypt—outside the mainstream, just as astrologers will always find themselves outside the mainstream. These ‘alternative’ writers have devoted and sacrificed a greater part of their life to the study of ancient Egypt and have greatly prompted/expanded my education/knowledge in the field of astrology/precessional astronomy. Cyril Fagan and West both believed ancient Egypt contained high (esoteric) astrological knowledge that far exceeds our present day knowledge of astrology/astronomy. These men (writers) have proven to me ancient Egypt contained a knowledge pertaining to the precession of the equinoxes and its Ages which is the title of your topic. These ‘alternative’ writers believed ancient Egypt was the embryo of astrology and precessional astronomy. Orthodox academia and most Egyptologists imbedded in academia do not have any knowledge of astronomy and thinks astrologers are pure idiots. I am only trying to contribute to your topic. I can contribute much ‘alternative’ material (mainly pertaining to ancient Egypt) to your topic; but, if you are not interested in any material from these scholarly ‘alternative’ writers, then I will bow-out.

Regards, Steve
_________________
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated