skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
The Life & Work of Vettius Valens
by Deborah Houlding
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Dexter and sinister aspects

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Dexter and sinister aspects Reply with quote

Iíve been studying up on dexter and sinister aspects. These seem to be important distinctions going back centuries to classical astrology. Lilly wrote "Observe the dexter aspect is more forcible than the Sinister"(from http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dexter.html)

My question: Why is there seldom any mention of dexter and sinister in the forum posts concerning horary chart delineation? There is plenty of talk about translation and collection of light, etc., but seldom any discussion or even casual mention of the dynamics shown by the dexter/sinsiter distinction. Is it one of those things which we are told is important, but is forgotten or ignored in actual horary work?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also believe this issue is understated. But what you say appears to be the case. I personally think the terms are very significant and useful. One of the benefits is that they donít just produce more information, but bring a greater degree of detail into what we already have. (If we have a significator making an application by a sinister aspect, it suggests that what is desired is accomplished by subtle or more indirect means; through a dexter aspect the route is more direct and straightforward).

Itís possible to work without reference to them, and I think many people do. Letís start a campaign to bring them back into popular horary use shall we?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While weíre on the subject, letís see if Iíve got this right Ė determining dexter and sinister depends on which planet is casting the aspect, which itself depends on the speed of the planets. For example, Mars in Aries and Jupiter in Capricorn are within orb of applying to a square aspect. Assuming they are both going at full speed the aspect would be dexter because Mars is the faster planet and is aspecting Jupiter against the order of the signs. However, if Mars were currently very slow, slower than Jupiter, Jupiter would be casting the aspect to Mars in the order of the signs Ė therefore it would be a sinister aspect. In either case Mars would be the dominating planet because it is ahead in the zodiac and the first to rise in diurnal motion. How am I doing? [Not very well; I reversed it -- Jupiter dominates as it is ahead in the zodiacal circle]

This example gets interesting when you consider that Mars is at home in Aries and receives Jupiter by exaltation in Capricorn, where poor Jupiter is having a time of it in fall. So how does one blend together a planet in dignity giving a reception to a planet in fall with a sinister or dexter aspect, keeping in mind which is the dominating planet. Oh dear.

Can we say that the dignity and debility of the planets tell us what they are capable of; the reception and aspect tell us that they are negotiating to produce something; and sinister and dexter tell us how quickly, forcefully and effectively they will produce it?

But whether sinister or dexter Mars [Jupiter] here is the dominating planet.

Quote:
- In classical astrology the planet on the right of an aspect (i.e., that which is more forward in diurnal movement) dominates, overcomes or overpowers the one to the left.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/dominating.html

So here is something else which is seldom dicussed in horary delineations. In the example above we need to keep in mind that, whether dexter or sinister, Mars dominates, overcomes or overpowers Jupiter. [Reverse that]

This is an awful lot. Can anyone recommend a quick and easy course in reading entrails?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you can see I needed to do a little correcting to my last post. I was trying to do it all in my head without visual aid.

Reading entrails is looking better. Plus - you get to have a barbecue afterward.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For example, Mars in Aries and Jupiter in Capricorn are within orb of applying to a square aspect. Assuming they are both going at full speed the aspect would be dexter because Mars is the faster planet and is aspecting Jupiter against the order of the signs.

Yes. So Mars would be applying to a dexter square of Jupiter.
Quote:
However, if Mars were currently very slow, slower than Jupiter, Jupiter would be casting the aspect to Mars in the order of the signs Ė therefore it would be a sinister aspect.

In principle correct.
Quote:
In either case Mars would be the dominating planet because it is ahead in the zodiac and the first to rise in diurnal motion. How am I doing? [Not very well; I reversed it -- Jupiter dominates as it is ahead in the zodiacal circle]

You have it right in the corrected version. But it's because it's ahead by diurnal motion - forget about the zodiacal circle (see comments below).

The issue of the dominating planet and Ďdexter and sinisterí are obviously related and presumably the descriptions of dexter and sinister grew out of the perspective applied to the dominating planet. But they tend to be used in a different sense, so itís not usually a case of merging the two together. Using one or the other should get you towards a similar meaning. I donít recall seeing references to Ďthe dominating planetí except in classical works, whereas the dexter-sinister description is continued much later and found frequently in Lillyís work.

Weíve established that Jupiter is the dominating planet in this square aspect with Mars because it is more forward in diurnal movement. This means that Marsís application to Jupiter is necessarily by a dexter movement (towards the right). If Mars were dominating, its application to Jupiter would have to be by a sinister movement (towards the left).

I give an example in the aspects article where Dorotheus tells us that if Jupiter dominates Mars by square in a nativity, the native will be noble, steadfast, compassionate. But if Mars dominates Jupiter they will be feeble-minded, tiresome, fatigued, slanderous. This is because the dominating planet is presumed to overpower the influence of the other.

Now in horary we are usually talking about aspectual Ďapplicationsí in relation to the planets being significators of things, people or situations we want. Letís imagine Mars is the significator for the querent and Jupiter is the significator for the quesited:

Mars wants to connect with Jupiterís influence. Where it is applying by dexter, Jupiterís influence over Mars is strong, so Mars is likely to get a strong return from Jupiter in the connection. But where it is making a sinister application, Mars is already in the dominating position so Jupiter is less able to convey strength to Mars. Hence it is a weaker application. Plus the element of Ďlooking behindí instead of Ďlooking aheadí to make the connection, brings in the descriptive implication of a connection being made in a less than direct manner.

Confusion crept into this matter a number of years ago when astrologers tried to explain what the terms Ďdexterí and Ďsinisterí meant without really understanding the classical perspective they emerged from. It has been consistently reported throughout tradition that a dexter aspect is more efficient than a sinister one. But because it started getting related to movement through the zodiac instead of diurnal motion, it wasnít understood why a dexter aspect, which forms ďagainst the order of the signsĒ (as Lilly put it) should be stronger than a sinister one which forms in the order of the signs. So some authors tried to Ďcorrectí this by claiming that a dexter aspect is one which follows the order of the signs and turned the scheme on its head! Edward Whitman did this in his ĎAspects and their Meaningí (Fowler, 1970). You might still come across to odd references to this sort of thinking but thankfully most astrologers now repeat the correct definition.

The connections of dexter (right) with the clear and forceful; and sinister (left) with a lack of clarity and feebleness is not determined by a flexible perspective. Itís tied into the concept of waxing and waning. Look at the Moon: its waxing whilst making dexter aspects to the Sun and waning whilst making sinister applications. If you follow any two planets from the point of their conjunction, the quicker moving one will also be waxing from the slower in dexter applications and vice versa.

Quote:
Can we say that the dignity and debility of the planets tell us what they are capable of; the reception and aspect tell us that they are negotiating to produce something; and sinister and dexter tell us how quickly, forcefully and effectively they will produce it?

Yes we can.

Quote:
Reading entrails is looking better. Plus - you get to have a barbecue afterward.


Ah but these celestial principles form the core of symbolic understanding that reading entrails and all other divinatory practices depend upon, so there is no getting away from it. It is celestial cycles that have determined why dexter/right=righteousness and sinister/left= well, things that are sinister!

BTW, Itís often said that astrology grew out of the techniques of liver divination (because we have more evidence of that being used in sacred rituals from an earlier period). But I argue that it has to be the other way around. The reason we have more evidence of entrail reading at religious ceremonial events is the barbecue you mentioned. After the sacrifice and divinatory act, the meat of the sacrificial animal was shared amongst participants. Eating astrology charts is never so pleasant and should only be performed at times of stress.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,
Thanks for the reply. This topic, plus your articles and posts on reception, have revived my interest and got me going. Your writings here are a gold mine. However, Iím still not convinced about the 6th and 10th houses...

Kirk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah - the great 6th house - 10th house divide! Why don't we just split the difference and agree upon the 8th?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Natal 8th Sun and Mercury Ė Iíve had enough of that house. If you would be so kind as to step across to the other side Iíll meet you in the 2nd house. We can swap tales about our finances while weíre there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about we make a case for the secret 13th house that most astrologers are unaware of?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3507
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since dexter and sinister aspects are all the rage here, I thought I'd throw in a quote from Morinus on that very subject. I'm quoting from the Baldwin translation of Book 21 chapter 11 page 85. Morinus lists 9 things the astrologer must do to analyze aspects correctly. He is specifically referring to natal astrology, so the astrologer will have to interpolate to make it fit into horary:
Quote:

"First. The aspects to the house cusps are to be considered, for by the prime motion from east to west the planets move to the cusps, and of these the dexter aspects, or those preceding the cusp (earlier in the zodiac) are generally said to be more effective than the sinister aspects or those of the same kind following the cusp (later in the zodiac). But this is not at all times true and a distinction must be recognized, for if a planet applies by dexter square to a cusp -- such as the MC --but by sinister square it is passing from another -- such as the Ascendant (which could only occur in a comparison of two horoscopes) -- the dexter will have the greater effect; but if by dexter square it is passing from the MC but is applying through the prime motion to the Ascendant by sinister square, the sinister will have the greater effect, and so on for the other aspects. "

The jet lag is setting in so I'll leave comments to others.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

Does your idea disregard which planet applies to the other one? I've always looked to see which planet is moving faster, and used that to determine who applies to whom, and from there, if the aspect is dexter or sinister.

If Saturn were in Aries and the Moon were in Capricorn, I would have called that a sininster aspect, because the Moon applies to Saturn counter clockwise, against the diurnal motion. But you seem to be saying that it's still a dexter aspect because the Moon is ahead of Saturn. I am confused.
_________________
Mark F
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Iím not sure how Iíve confused you. I went over my post and canít see how I was saying what you thought I was saying.

In horary we are usually talking about the planet making the application, so if we are talking about the Moon in Capricorn making a square to Saturn in Aries, we would say that the Moon is applying to a sinister square of Saturn, just as you say. (Or that Saturn is receiving a sinister square from the Moon).

If I've written anything above to suggest otherwise please point it out and I'll take a look at why I've left you confused.

Deb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

I've been away from this for a while and my brain has turned to mush. Please forgive me. Pretend I got hit on the head and that I have one of those cartoon bandages wrapped around my head.

What confused me wasn't your post here but the article that you wrote where you talk about the two concepts of dexter/sinister and what planet dominates. I've re-read both and I think I got it, but this is new information for me. It's great info but I have to re-learn what I though I already knew.

I had always thought that a dexter aspect was good, or strong and direct, while a sinister one was bad or weak. Now when you add in the idea of the dominating planet, it seems to matter more what planets are involved and the nature of the question.

This comes in handy with a chart I just did last night. I asked, "When will X call me", November 28, 10:44 PM, Falls Church, VA. I am the Sun, and X is Saturn, 7th house ruler. The Sun applies to Saturn by a dexter trine. The way I was thinking before was that in a dexter aspect, the one applying was the stronger one, so I read that to mean that I would break down and call X, whereas I promised not to. The way that you explain things, since Saturn is the dominant planet, it has more to give to me, so that shows that X, Saturn, will call me. Is that right?

In the same question, suppose that Saturn were in Aries and not Leo and the Sun applied to it, then the Sun would dominate, how would that effect the outcome? The Sun would apply by a sinister aspect, so maybe X, Saturn, would feel pressured to call. Does that make sense? I usually need examples from charts to help me understand something. If the question is when will X call, the applying trine sure would show a contact, in this case a phone call, but with Saturn less able to give what's wanted, how would you describe the phone call? The only thing I could think of was that X would feel pressure or reluctant to call.

Again, the fault was not yours, but my tired and aging brain.

Another great post, lots to think about.
_________________
Mark F
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dexter quality adds an element of vigour into the aspect (consider my example of the Sun and Moon). Itís like a finer stroke of detail. But I donít think it is appropriate to use it as you are doing here. Itís a much more reliable principle that the planet forming the application signifies the person making most of the moves. Saturn as the superior planet is going to respond to the Sun, and thatís not likely to change because of the dexter/sinister definition.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

Advancing senility is causing me a great deal of trouble. When you say,

Quote:
that the planet forming the application signifies the person making most of the moves. Saturn as the superior planet is going to respond to the Sun, and thatís not likely to change because of the dexter/sinister definition.

what does that mean as far as a phone call? Who will call who? And are you saying that if the Sun were in Aries, there would be no difference in how to read the aspect? Thanks for your patience.
_________________
Mark F
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated