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Should I Buy the Thing?
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CarolineEli



Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Location: Boston

Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Should I Buy the Thing? Reply with quote

Hi All,

I'm an advanced beginner to Horary, almost finished with my initial training.

I'd appreciate anyone's feedback about key significators in this chart being retrograde, which Lilly tells us make for "ill application" (CA 107)! Also the South Node conjunct the asc raises concern, and the Moon in Via Combusta. Otherwise strong significators, and Moon transfers light from my significator to the seller’s.

Background: there is a talisman I've been intending to make, but I see one for sale and am inclined to buy it! The high price and my inability to know its effects give me pause. So I cast a chart to ask if I should buy it.

Note that in Lilly’s “Should I Buy Master B His Houses?” (CA 219-22), Master B's Houses were retrograde Saturn in Sag in the 3rd House, and this did not make them less desirable in his eyes! So a retrograde significator for what you want to buy appears NOT to be an argument against buying the thing!


Aug 13 2:52 pm EDT, Boston MA, Venus Day and Hour.
Considerations:
→ 5 Sag 07 rises, Not radical with Venus.
→ Ruler of Asc is retrograde
→ Moon is late, Void of Course, peregrine at 27 Libra 00 in 11th House.

I am Jupiter, retrograde and peregrine in cadent 3rd House.
The Talisman, ruler of 2H is Retrograde Saturn at 9 Aq 20, strong in domicile and in the house of my money and possessions.
The Price is Mercury at 3 Virgo 26, ruler of the 10 H and in the 9H. Exalted and in Domicile, and having term rulership as well. (IT IS PRICEY!)
Mercury is also the seller, ruler of the 7th House. The seller is more powerful than I am for sure!.

Moon’s next aspect is trine to Jupiter, my significator, with mutual face reception, in 1 degree 2 minutes. Then the Moon sextiles Mercury, significator of the seller in 6 degrees 26 minutes.

So the thing I want to buy (saturn) is strong in domicile but retrograde, it rules my significator, Jupiter, and the Moon transfers light between me(Jupiter) and the seller (Mercury).


What do you think?

Ketu conj Asc, Moon Void of Course, retrograde significators -- do these override the other factors to tel me Don’t Do It?

Thanks anyone for your help!!

PS sorry I can't figure out how to post a chart!
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 505

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello CarolineEli,

I can post the chart if you want but before I do, I just want to verify.
You say
Quote:
Aug 13 2:52 pm EDT, Boston MA,
→ 5 Sag 07 rises


What Longitude and Latitude did you use?
For Boston,MA 71W04 42N22 I get an ASC at 5Sag32 -Regiomontanus

Thank you,
Ouranos
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 254

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos - I got 5 Sag 32 for the ascendant, too.

Hi Caroline,

Quote:
Note that in Lilly’s “Should I Buy Master B His Houses?” (CA 219-22), Master B's Houses were retrograde Saturn in Sag in the 3rd House, and this did not make them less desirable in his eyes! So a retrograde significator for what you want to buy appears NOT to be an argument against buying the thing!


Yes, he fancied the house so much, he ignored the steep price! Cool I think the moral of the story is that a horary chart advises us of the situation, but doesn't decide the matter for us.

Your talisman is expensive, yes, but it being in the 9th higher or religious knowledge makes me think it is a genuine thing, the price is fair, and that it is going to be worth it for your specific purpose.

Jupiter is retrograde, near but still not quite back in its own sign (Pisces). I just wonder if you would end up regretting spending that money. Maybe you'll realise you don't need a talisman after all - you are a lucky star (benefic Jupiter in Pisces) yourself!

Your significator is applying to a retrograde planet - I remember Tanit (this forum's moderator) once said that in such a case, sometimes the Querent pulls themselves out of/gives up on the situation despite options.

This is also what constitutes the medieval concept "return of light", meaning Jupiter fails to facilitate the matter with Moon. However, here it is with reception (Egyptian terms + Dorothean triplicity). The Moon, the matter as a whole, is in a good house near Spica. If you ask me, judging by Jupiter and Moon, you will probably do just fine with or without having to spend a small fortune on this talisman. Does that make sense?

Amelia


Last edited by AmeliaS on Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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CarolineEli



Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Location: Boston

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please forgive my sloppiness!

The 07 I took from where South Node is (07 Sag 37), so the correct rising degree is 05 Sag 36, not 05 Sag 07.

latitude 42°N21'30"
longitude 71°W03'37"

Thanks for posting the Chart using Regio if you can, and thanks in advance for anyone's input!
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 254

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We crossed messages, Caroline. Just so you wouldn't miss my reply above. -Amelia
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CarolineEli



Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Location: Boston

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Amelia! Very helpful!

May I ask a few further questions?

I was using Saturn for the talisman, as ruler of the 2nd house of a prospective possession. But you write:

"Your talisman is expensive, yes, but it being in the 9th higher or religious knowledge makes me think it is a genuine thing, the price is fair, and that it is going to be worth it for your specific purpose."

What significator are you using for the talisman?

And also, any thoughts about South Node on the Ascendant?

THANK YOU!
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 505

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted - see chart below
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Last edited by Ouranos on Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CarolineEli



Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Location: Boston

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
thank you Ouranos!
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 254

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the omission. Here Mercury rules both the price and the seller. By "it" I was referring to the seller, that is, the 7th house ruler. I think the seller being in the 9th could be he has real knowledge about these things and he has a genuine interest in it. He is not a sham, so to speak.

I would actually use House 8 for the talisman given it is not your property yet, but the seller's. In a business transaction though, House 2 is still relevant. It is our financial circumstances. Saturn being retrograde could be the pinch sinking in making you wonder a bit if you really should've bought it. But then again, who except yourself can put a price tag on something you like/feel at the moment could be helpful? Smile

Edit: South node on the Ascendant - if memory serves, Lilly would be concerned if it is conjunct a significator. That is, a planet. (see his planetary score sheet).

Best,
Amelia


Last edited by AmeliaS on Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 254

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just checked: in Lilly's aphorisms he did say things or people represented by the house where the south node is in should receive damage.

I always have had my doubts about this one. John Frawley has it: the planets and nodes have nowhere to go... it is not like they have a back stage to hide. Not everything is relevant in every chart. I personally wouldn't be too concerned with the South Node floating around houses and not with significators. To me it is secondary testimony.

Amelia
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 505

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

General rule: SN conjunct ASC indicates harm to the question
"many rubs and disturbances, much wrangling and great controversies, that the business was many times given over for desperate ere a perfection conclusion could be had." (Lilly, CA p83)

Item: Saturn in Aquarius - Rulership R
-The indications are that the item is worth the price (Rulership) but it is on sale (Retrograde).
-The item is quite unusual, one of a kind (Rulership) If it has been remodeled or refurbished (Retrograde)
The 3rd dodekatemoria of Sagittarius is Aquarius reads 'maritime affairs and transactions'.

Seller: Mercury in Virgo
Physically this person is well built, angular, short with a thin body, very fine facial features, a high forehead, large ears, thin, drawn lips, pale complexion, thin hair, deep set eyes that are set wide apart, triangular facial planes, good bone structure, possibly a scar on the body or tattoos (conjunct Mars in Virgo)

Transaction:
You say "Moon transfers light from my significator to the seller’s". Moon's last aspect was a sextile to the SunL9 in 9th
And the Moon will sextile Mercury but it will need to change sign before it does, so circumstances will have changed (like price change, item already sold, no longer available etc)
Moon trine JupiterRL1 mutual application. As Amelia pointed out the mutual application between Moon and JupiterR "pulls themselves out of, gives up on the situation despite options." Basically, you change your mind. Which is also shown by Jupiter being R in the 3rd (cadent House showing 'inability to take a decision or to act'). Thank God it is a trine and the Moon conjunct Spica, you don't get hurt by not following up. I don't see how the Moon or Jupiter can get together with Mercury or even how it is linked to 2nd House (SaturnR) representing your purchase.

I would definitely like to see how your story unfold.

Blessings
Ouranos
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CarolineEli



Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 6
Location: Boston

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thanks to you both, Amelia and Ouranos!

A few points of follow up

First, Amelia's choice to use L8 as the thing you might buy, i.e., 2nd from the seller who is the 7th House -- this makes a lot of sense to me! But in previous chart examples I have seen people use L2, as Ouranos does and my instinct. Looking at L8 seems not wrong though perhaps as a secondary significator. As a newcomer to Horary, I am really here to learn!

Second, I am intrigued by two different astrologers' different readings of the South Node
--> one view, that SN is less significant if not conjunct a planet;
--> another view that it is QUITE significant: "General rule: SN conjunct ASC indicates harm to the question":
"many rubs and disturbances, much wrangling and great controversies, that the business was many times given over for desperate ere a perfection conclusion could be had." (Lilly, CA p83)

This south node conjoining an angle seems it can't be NOTHING -- and conjoining the house of the querent does not seem to indicate a positive or encouraging outcome for the question! Either the querent is subject to harm she does not know about, or the perfection of the question would yield harm!
A talisman you did not make (and even one you did!) will always hold some mystery as to what its effects will be. That being the case, the south node seems to be cause for concern, and possibly grounds NOT to purchase it.

Finally, Ouranos, I was seeing that the Moon applies immediately to trine Jupiter (me) then next sextiles the seller (mercury). But that's not transfer of light, my mistake. The moon is carrying light from its most recent separating sextile with the Sun (9L in the 9H) to trine me (Jupiter, 1L in 3H). The Sun rules astrology, but otherwise is not a significator in the chart. My mistake!

Any case, it does look like I might be the querent who "pulls themselves out of, gives up on the situation despite options" !

Who wants a talisman if circumstances surrounding its acqusition are south node-y?

Tony Louis cites Pepa Sanchis's significations for the south node as "illness, sluggishness, decrease of energy, loss and restriction" https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2018/09/12/more-on-the-moons-nodes-in-horary/#:~:text=Sanchis%20noted%20that%20the%20Lunar,and%20even%20a%20bit%20of

So -- the chart would seem to say, the talisman is great and powerful, the seller is sincere, skillled, and not a sham -- but the talisman is not for me??

Thanks!
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

General guidelines for buying and selling
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wealthelect.html

- It is always best to buy when the Moon is separating from malefics and applying to benefics. Here the Moon separates from a strong Sun in Leo.

Most likely this talisman has some Solar connotation and could be ranked on top of the list with religious, spiritual or esoteric meanings.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horary is an art of synthesis. A judgment is called by noting all the significations and prioritising and putting them together to tell a meaningful story. Ergo, no single signification overpowers all the others (unless it is the Moon, which both Lilly and Bonatti said to be of utmost importance - it is much better to have the ascendant ruler afflicted than to have the Moon damaged, they said!)

The point is, this is ultimately an art, probably more so than it is science, and I see that you have been diligent in your research and are ready to call your own judgment now. Glad to have been helpful in this process. By all means, call what you think is right!

Best,
Amelia
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 505

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CarolineEli,

Quote:
Looking at L8 seems not wrong though perhaps as a secondary significator.


Sort of. If you need to be financed to buy the thing like a house then the 8th House will be involved.

And i don't profess to hold the truth.

Amelia,

Quote:
Horary is an art of synthesis. A judgment is called by noting all the significations and prioritizing and putting them together to tell a meaningful story. ...it is much better to have the ascendant ruler afflicted than to have the Moon damaged, they said!)

Very true! The Moon is like a scanner. You pick up articles in a store and you proceed to checkout but for some reasons the scanner doesn't recognize one of the article. It simply doesn't fit in your bag or you don't need it for the road.
I like your approach when you pull the pieces of the puzzle and try to tell a story. And your kindness in everything you say.
Funny that we are in a Forum of Ancient Astrology but we are looking for our landmarks in today's world. If you read ancient texts, it seems full of thieves and family serial killers. I still need to find a text where an astrologer was forecasting for the querent's daughter a bright future made of wealth outside a marriage.
We just need to re-appropriate our present. After all, the past and the future are constantly with us.
Like Alice in Wonderland, how long does 'always' last? And the bunny to reply, "Sometimes just a second."
Or
Antoine de St-Exupery "As for the future, your task is not to foresee it, but to enable it."

Blessings,
Ouranos
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