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Skyscript Astrology Forum

2021 - israel / occupied palestine - tropical
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3963
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject: 2021 - israel / occupied palestine - tropical Reply with quote

as isaac starkman has mentioned he works with alexander marrs rectified chart for israel of 4:15:08pm tel aviv and that the solar return for this year appears challenging given a few factors - mars on the ascendant being the most obvious challenge...



here is the 2021 solar return to the above chart..


profection year lord is mars / scorpio- and 2nd house to the natal libra ascedant.. this puts it in the 5th of the solar return chart - considered favourable, while being in the 7th to the natal sun and 4th to the natal moon - both considered unfavourable... that mars is so strong by house position in the ascendant, but weak by sign is indeed a mixed bag... also mars is the malefic of the opposite sect in the 415pm chart which makes it further challenging... in the post i made on the middle east charts, i happened to notice mars in leo is a common connecting link in some of the important charts we have for the middle east and palestine-israel conflict.. i suspect when mars transits leo we will see more of this in action, but for the time being, the dynamic doesn't look helpful on the world stage...

moon is in the 12th of the solar return chart and is the ruler of the ascendant cancer..saturn is in the 8th of the solar return chart and is in direct opposition to the saturn-pluto conjunction in the 415pm chart - also not a great set up and one set to be ongoing for the next year and a bit as well, before it opposes 415pm mars next year - 2022... uranus position is conjunct 415pm north node, which means saturn is also squaring onto the nodal axis of the 415pm chart... all in all, not a great set up for israel at the moment..

i had been looking at the sidereal charts in the same context, but it isn't as radical this year as the tropical chart is.. it is more of a problem next year.. i will cover that later..

here is a biwheel of the 2 above charts... i notice t pluto squares onto the ascendant degree directly here as well... solar return ascendant-mars conjunction is in the 10th house of the 415pm chart as well using whole sign houses..



here are a few articles for consideration in relation to this ongoing topic of conflict in the middle east..

https://gilad.online/writings/2021/5/15/the-yom-kippur-syndrome-revisited/

https://worldaffairs.blog/2021/05/12/palestinians-v-uyghurs-naked-western-hypocrisy/
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Zosma



Joined: 11 Nov 2018
Posts: 192

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, interesting charts & observations/links.Also transiting Saturn through 4th house opposing natal Pluto Saturn conjunction in 10th square the nodes with transiting Uranus over NN soon. In addition Solar Arc Saturn ruler of the 4th exactly on the Ascendant.
Eschatological studies maybe the order of the day !
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 503

Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting SR James

SR Mars (Fall) squaring natal Neptune in 12th indicates a hidden agenda behind the attacks and facing an enemy with religious beliefs favoring suicide attacks. We have already seen the main roads leading to Shifa hospital, the largest hospital in the strip totally destroyed.

Remember at the end of the movie Schindler's List when the Russian troopers are talking to the prisoners of the concentration camps. They say 'Don't go East and don't go West... you will not be well received. Go in that direction pointing to Israel..."
Once, I was talking to a Jewiish friend and ask her 'Why did you invade the Arabs after WW II". Her answer was 'No, they invaded us 2,000 years ago!"
That's when I realized that the War had long begun, longer than we think.

And all of Jerusalem is holy to three religions—Christian, Jewish and Moslem, and some of the religious sites in and around the Holy City are shared by two or even all three of the religions. You invite all three for a children's party and you tell them "I am sorry! I only have one gift that you will have to share!" Good luck!

Ouranos
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zosma and ouranos,

thanks for your input and feedback! this post was largely motivated by isaac starkmans comments to me in a previous thread.. there are a few different charts used for israel and just this morning aj informs me of a 4th that i was unaware of... the simplified list is this

4pm
4:15:08 pm
437pm...

the chart i have just heard about this morning is a 424pm chart... fortunately they are all on the same day!

if you start looking at the connections, all of this will change the angles depending on what time you use.. it doesn't change it a lot, but it is a more significant change when you go to do the solar return chart.... it is the same situation if you switch to sidereal.. the changes becomes hugely different... so, i am conflicted on it all.. in the past i had found the 4pm chart worked the best for my limited research on these charts for israel... since adopting sidereal, i haven't cultivated a position on it all, although i do seem to recall some of the solar returns off the sidereal chart for next year as being more ominous... i wish i could be more confident on these charts, but i am not..

thanks for that story ouranos... although jerusalem is considered a holy place for these religions it seems to me they are turning it into more of a hell on earth... i am not sure what they plan on doing about that, but presently it doesn't seem all that ''whole'' to me.. cheers james
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Mark
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Posts: 5241
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

I dont if you recall but some years back we had a bit of a debate here on the chart for Israel. I think you favoured 4pm then and I (then) went for 4.37pm which just gave an early Scorpio rising chart (tropical).

The various times depend on what time one uses for the key moment in Ben Gurion's speech that day.
Quote:
The event started at 16:00 (a time chosen so as not to breach the sabbath) and was broadcast live as the first transmission of the new radio station Kol Yisrael. Ben-Gurion opened the ceremony by banging his gavel on the table, prompting a spontaneous rendition of Hatikvah, soon to be Israel's national anthem, from the 250 guests

Those advocating a time around 16.15 or quite possibly a few minutes later have the following argument based on the recorded events of the ceremony.

Quote:
Following the singing of the ''Hatikvah'' at the start of the ceremony, Ben Gurion informed the audience "I shall now read to you the scroll of the Establishment of the State, which has passed its first reading by the National Council", Ben-Gurion proceeded to read out the declaration, taking 16 minutes, ending with the words "Let us accept the Foundation Scroll of the Jewish State by rising" and calling on Rabbi Fishman to recite the Shehecheyanu blessing''


So what about the 16.37 time? It was either Michael Baigent or Charles Harvey in their book on mundane astrology who went for the 16.37 time. The argument for the end of the ceremony is as follows.. ..
Quote:
after Sharett, the last of the signatories, had put his name to paper, the audience again stood and the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra played the new national anthem "Hatikvah". Ben-Gurion concluded the event with the words "The State of Israel is established! This meeting is adjourned!"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence#Declaration_ceremony

A few years ago at the UK Astrological Association conference I asked the Jewish American New York astrologer Meira Epstein ( a noted translator and expert on Jewish medieval astrology) what chart she used. She stated without a doubt the 4.00pm time. Her position is based on the well established traditional astrological philosophy of the inception time in which we time events from their beginning or 'birth'. Meira Epstein also stated the 4pm time fitted key historical events in Israel's history best. I may have the specifics muddled here but seem to recall Meira Epstein mentioned an eclipse hit to the chart prior to the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995.

I remember having a similar astrological debate with myself recently over the coronation chart for Queen Elizabeth II. Should one take the moment she entered the Church?, the time she took the oath as Queen? or when she was crowned? I eventually, decided the oath taking was the most radical time.

Mark
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amandaW



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 423
Location: Wales

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James/Mark

I've always used the 4pm chart and found it works really well. But the other charts based on different points in the ceremony will presumably also all have relative resonance.

I find that most charts that have historical support do function at some level

I am, however, generally sceptical about using other people's rectifications unless I am provided with all the computations/analysis. I don't have any problems with people using their own but don't like to take on trust something that someone else claims to have arrived at without backup.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3963
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark and amandaW

thanks for your input here! i sort of feel the same with regard to rectifications... i don't treat them as gospel..however i do appreciate all the work they might have put into arriving at the time... perhaps isaac starkman will chime in here at some point.. i know alexander marr is the basis for the rectification if memory serves correctly...

if you do these charts in sidereal, or with precession, you get very different results... i guess this goes without saying, but it is worth remembering... perhaps no one knows just how popular skyscript is... check this out for more insight on precessed solar return charts.
https://astroconnexions.com/solar-returns/solar-returns-with-precession-correction/

mark

regarding the book 'mundane astrology' by baigent, campion and harvey... thanks for bringing it up! it has been a while since i read the book, but i reviewed the sections of the book on israel and was surprised to find some of the info dovetailed with my comments in that post i have a month or so ago on charts for the middle east..
https://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11292

they point out the importance of a couple of outer planet cycles - saturn-uranus and saturn-pluto, in relation to israels chart.. looking at these charts for israel one can see a septile aspect with saturn-uranus in the chart for israel... the book points out in the conception charts - the balfour declaration and allenby's entry into jerusalem, the presence of saturn-uranus. in the balfour declaration there is an opposition of saturn- uranus tropical over the leo - aquarius axis... i don't know the details on the allenby entry into jerusalem...

fact is, we now see saturn-uranus in a hard aspect with one another.. this seems to confirm the strength of these 2 planets in the dynamic in the middle east at present...

as for the saturn- pluto combo, they again show up in the charts we are looking at for israel.. in fact t saturn directly opposes saturn at present, and we know further along that pluto will be opposing this same saturn-pluto opposition in the 1948 chart... so, suffice to say the tension that continues to build in the middle east and focused on israel is by no means over here... i think these outer planet combos are an important ingredient into understanding the present situation...

as for the different times for the chart for israel - mundane astrology book) although they show the 437pm chart in the book, there are a number of notes that mention how the 4 pm chart is also used by astrologers...

nic campions book of world horoscopes has 3 charts - the 4pm one, a 432pm one - slightly different from the mundane astrology book, and of course campion was one of the authors to this book, so this is an updated version from 2004 - with a 432pm time with some notes attached.. also included is a chart for 0 am may 15th - 14 aquarius rising in tropical which seems particularly poignant when considering the transit of uranus-saturn at present, and coincidentally the data found in the balfour declaration chart in the previous thread i shared about on charts for the middle east... it seems may 15th 0am was the legal pass over from the british and again the notes are in campions book i cite..

that note from you mark on Meira Epstein's position was quite interesting to read.. i didn't know that, but i have read her books on abraham ibn ezra and know she is very much focused on the topic..thanks for that..

on a personal note, i have the brill publication books on abraham ibn ezra that shlomo sela edited, translate and annotated that i would be willing to sell if anyone is interested..

thanks for the conversation and comments..
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I started to learn astrology in 1974 I was using the 4pm for Israel until 1985 when Alexander Marr gave a seminar here in Tel Aviv and presented his rectification for 4.15.07 pm. Since them I checked and compared with many events using Marr’s methods and I have no doubt that his rectification is correct. A short analysis for some events you can see in his book Political Astrology page 95. PDF available here:
https://ajak41.wixsite.com/polaris
Here are some more examples:
1. 4 November 1995- assassination of P.M. Rabin
Primary:
MC 30 Saturn 4’
Neptune 30 MC 5’
Transits:
Node 0 Asc
Uranus 90 Asc
2. 26 Feb 1969- death of P.M. Levi Eshkol
Primary:
Neptune 90 MC3’
Secondary: Asc 0 S. Node 9’
3. 22 April 1978- Israel won in Eurovision
Primary:
III 120 Sun 3’
Jupiter 135 Mercury 2’
4. 31 March 1979- Israel won in Euovision
Primary:
Jupiter 90 Asc 5’
Moon 180 PAF 0’
Transits:
Jupiter 0 MC!!
Converse Jupiter 60 MC

5. 26 October 1994- peace agreement with Jordan
Primary:
Asc 120 Moon 4’
III 120 Mercury 5’
Convese transit Venus 90 Desc
6. 26 March 1979 peace agreement with Egypt
Primary:
Jupiter 90 Desc 5’
Moon 180 PAF 0’
Transits:
Jupiter 0 MC !!!
Venus 60 Desc
Converse Venus 0 MC!!
7. 9 May 1998- won in Eurovision
Primary:
Mercury 120 III 5’
8. 10 May 2021- war in Gaza
Secondary:
Asc 0 Mars 3’
MC 60 Saturn 8’
VIII 0 Moon 5’
Transits:
Pluto 90 Asc
Converse Saturn 60 Decs and 90 VIII 52'
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3963
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks isaac... any predictions for israel moving forward here?? thanks...
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amymaddalozzo



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 160

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Israel and new government Reply with quote

The new government is suppose to happen today--without Bibi ANy thoughts about the chart? AMY
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naftali Bennett sweared as the new Prime Minister at 21.02 EEST Asc 11Cap48'. Moon is at the very end of Cancer conjunct Moon, square MC and in opposition to Pluto. I will be surprised if his government will survive more than a few months.
Bennett was born on 25 March 1972 in Haifa. I rectifed his chart to 21.13. EET Asc 17Sco36'.
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amymaddalozzo



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 160

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject: New israel government Reply with quote

Thanks I agree I think there could be chaos inIsrael or even a civil war. Marjorie Orr has an article with a 9Pm time AMY
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isaac and amy... thanks... appreciated! solar fire doesn't give me the EEST time zone.. i am unable to replicate the data to get your ascendant isaac...

isaac. i have tried solar fire with an adjusted time for this and i have used morinus software.. both give me 11 cap 09 as the ascendant... what software are you using?? thanks..




here is how it looks in sidereal.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no matter which chart one looks at - tropical or sidereal - it is a challenging chart. i would say it bodes ill or at minimum a real challenge... let me list the reasons..

sun square neptune fairly exact... sun and neptune in the cadent houses. sun rules the 8th or 9th house and struggles with direction and clarity on the issues associated with the 8th and 9th.. 9th is an important house in mundane as it connects to foreign policy and reaching agreements with neighbours and etc.. the sun in the 6th in square to neptune is not helpful. neptune is in the upper square or 10th house of the sun here..

moon in a conjunction and applying to mars which is in an opposition to pluto.. moon rules the 7th or 8th house depending on your zodiac.. nocturnal chart makes this more important.. mars is in its fall in sidereal cancer, while moon is strong.. it is made more difficult by being in the opposition to pluto rising... any cooperation of 2 parties to retain the power makes all of this quite important and central to moving forward here... none of this looks helpful..

moon is exact square the midheaven.. this is a mixed bag as i see it.. the moon in cancer implies the needs of relationship are being met up to a point.. the partner holds a good number of cards over the center of power of the gov't, moon being in the upper square to the midheaven..

venus on the descendant is positive... my comments in the above paragraph are modified some as a consequence, but not a whole lot..

its not all bad... saturn or jupiter as ruler of ascendant works better in tropical then it does in sidereal.. in some ways the sidereal chart is more challenging, but both are conflicted due the pluto rising in opp to the moon-mars conjunction...

jupiter in trine to the midheaven seems positive..jupiter is stationary in this chart, going retro in about 8 days...

saturn is retro and in the 8th house of the venus on the descendant... it appears to me one party of this 2 party alliance is working in a helpful way and the other one isn't.. the party represented by the ascendant - pluto rising has an agenda that dominates and it is not openly discussed or on the table for negotiation...

mercury is not helpful here being conjunct the sun and ruling important houses in the sidereal chart...

all in all, it will be interesting to see how long this leadershp of a few parties holds...

looking at biwheels with the 4pm israel chart to this moment isn't all that great either.. maybe i can discuss that separately.. cheers..
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 163
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James: the swearing was in Jerusalem, in the Knesset, not in Tel Aviv.
Indeed, Solar Fire doesn't have a Daylight Saving Time for Easernt European Time. So, you have to use BAT- Baghdad Time -3.00
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