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The Question in Horary

 
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 517

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 4:43 am    Post subject: The Question in Horary Reply with quote

I was watching a game show the other day, you know the kind where a contestant has to choose between 2 or several options to win a prize. And I thought - What king of horary question would I ask if I was a participant? -
The simplest one is 'Will I win?", more general and obvious if you are guaranteed a minimum prize. Calling for 1/5 (for winning) and dignified rulers.

'Will I win a big prize?". This one seems to sugest that 'Will I be satisfied with the amount?' because even if you do not win the jackpot, you can still be satisfied with the amount and claim it in the category of a big win. Which can be different for different people. Same question but different impact. You know the saying 'When you have money... and when you don't have any... It's never enough."
Obviously here we enter a subjective reality and I tend to believe that for a jackpot, the 10th House has to be involved somehow because you are going to make the headlines.

Now say you are in the middle of it and the TV show host is asking you 'Which one do you choose? The egg or the envelope?'
Obviously a 1/7 House question. My bet would be to go with the most dignified ruler of the 2 but there is no guarantee that you will win a big amount. It might be the 'biggest amount' of the 2 but not a big amount if both contain 2 small prizes.

I was watching an interview with Alphee Lavoie on the Air Astrology Software website the other day. Alphee has been a practicing Horary astrologer since the mid 60's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mx6grMmBZU&ab_channel=RobertCosmar-Astrologer
In it, he says that sometimes he receives a voicemail or an email and he waits for the auspices (like a strong Moon position) to be good before calling back the client and ask him to clarify his question. He then takes the time and draw the chart. That's when he understood the question and made it clear that this is the question being asked by the client. It requires advanced skills to do that.
The good side ot this is that at least you have fortified the most important planet in Horary.

Examples of clarification given by Alphee Lavoie, the person may ask
Should I give my book to the publisher? 3/9
Is this the right publisher for me? 1/9
Will my book be a successful venture? 3/10
Will I make money with my book? 2/3

Should I call my sister? 1/3
Should I call my mother? 3/10
Should I call my father? 3/4
Should I call my friend? 3/11

Horary is fascinating and can be formulated in a lot of different ways.

Ouranos
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1579

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: The Question in Horary Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Examples of clarification given by Alphee Lavoie, the person may ask

Should I call my sister? 1/3
Should I call my mother? 3/10
Should I call my father? 3/4
Should I call my friend? 3/11


Hello Ouranos,

your thoughts and quotations are very interesting and worth to be discussed.

To begin with the most simple subject: These last examples given by Lavoie are not quite consistent in my opinion.

"Should I call my sister" is Me (1) and my sister (3).

If this is right, and I agree with that, why does he change his perspective
as to mother, father and friend, by replacing himself as the acting person
(1) by the medium of his acting (the call, 3)?

Consistently he should then take:
1/10 for the mother,
1/4 for the father and
1/11 for the friend.

Does Lavoie explain his approach?
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 517

Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Johannes,
I agree with you, it seems odd to describe the object versus the person.
Although one can argue that the 3rd House is still your house.
And he does not provide an answer nor do I.

Want more controversy?
Check his articles on https://www.alphee.com/articles/
And he certainly deserve some closer look with his vast experience and his NCGR Level 4.
Koen Van de Moortel does a critic of his books and theories on
https://www.astrology-and-science.com/a-hora2.htm
For example, Koen says
"It gets even more complicated with questions like: "Will my friend's daughter move?". No problem, one takes the fourth house (home) of the fifth (daughter) of the third (friend) as being the house of the question. Now the catch question: what if this daughter of my friend also happens to be the wife (house 7) of my boss (house 10)? Or, posing the question "Will John bring my book tomorrow?", does it matter if John is my friend or not? Whether it is a study book or a novel?"

Alphee Lavoie helped find lost children like Sophia Mason did in Cleveland and he said his record was not so good until he started using the time the 911 call came in.

Appreciate your input Johannes,
Ouranos
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:

I agree with you, it seems odd to describe the object versus the person.
Although one can argue that the 3rd House is still your house.
And he does not provide an answer nor do I.
[...]
Koen Van de Moortel does a critic of his books and theories on
https://www.astrology-and-science.com/a-hora2.htm
For example, Koen says
"It gets even more complicated with questions like: "Will my friend's daughter move?". No problem, one takes the fourth house (home) of the fifth (daughter) of the third (friend) as being the house of the question. Now the catch question: what if this daughter of my friend also happens to be the wife (house 7) of my boss (house 10)? Or, posing the question "Will John bring my book tomorrow?", does it matter if John is my friend or not? Whether it is a study book or a novel?"

As to the calls: Of course you could argue that the third is my house. but it
is me who calls, and its not my communication that is calling.

And only the sister is worth ot get a call by Lavoie himself . . .

What a well-founded un-informed critic of this Dutch author who does not know that the answer is given to the one asked question.

Lilly has shown this "problem" that is no problem at all - at length.

But this critic, I think, could really be no reason of controversy. Very Happy
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 258

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing, Ouranos. I went through some of the articles and enjoyed them!

William Lilly would agree with Alphee on only erecting a chart after we have understood the querent's intention.

I remember someone writing a blog saying Lilly only did this for reason of convenience: it was the 17th century, and it took so much effort for the querents to find out and record the time they came up with the questions!

‚ÄčI don't think that is Lilly. I think Lilly meant that divination is between the astrologer and the universe, not the querent and the universe. The one who judges the chart should be the medium through which the chart is conceived. This is because the universe is supposed to reveal the secret to this person in a way he and first and foremost he understands. It is his planetary imprints. It thus makes every sense it should be the astrologer's moment: when the planets open up his mind to conceive and deal with the matter.

My charts done for others this way have always been strikingly accurate and detailed, even more so than my own charts: the querent's question, but my location, my time, my chart.

I have learnt from Alphee's articles (thank you again). I just don't agree with Alphee that every chart holds an answer. Incidentally, John Frawley also famously said "as above so below; horary never stopped working".

To think that any question in unconditionally valid is plain arrogance, though I'd like to believe that's not what they mean. A chart can be unreadable of course. That's why Bonatti said to wait 24 hours and pray and let our minds settle around our intention unless the matter is urgent. The intention also has to be devout, honest, and honourable - not to ask when I will have sex with X, for example, as Miss Deb said. Not whimsical, not flippant: both Bonatti's words. Otherwise, the charts won't be accurate and will give the art a bad name. The sympathy of the Superior Bodies isn't to be taken for granted. It has to be won.

Amelia


Last edited by AmeliaS on Thu May 06, 2021 6:07 am; edited 4 times in total
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 517

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The intention also has to be devout, honest, and honorable

Very true Amelia!
A clear question.
Oftentimes, in front of a question, if we start to question the intent that's when we start to err as practitioner. We put wrong intentions to the querent. Or worse, someone comes up later and tells you 'Sorry, I meant to ask this instead of that!" The question was not even honest to start up with.
It is like taunting the Sky with a deck and saying 'What's in store for me today?"
But it is not a bad idea to question the querent to find out if they are truly honest and reassure them that we understood the real question.

What I see in older practitioners like Alphee Lavoie or John Frawley is that they have 'outside skills' in their practice, something of a human nature that goes beyond the technical knowledge. And it is easy to detect their flaws on the basis of the science level.

Let me tell you a story. A long time ago, I was participating in an Occultism Fair with astrologers of a local association. We took turns to do 15 minutes chart readings for one question in a booth. And we could go on like this for 1 or 2 hours each. What struck me is that after a few readings in a row, I could replicate exactly what I had said to the previous person. As if something was 'in the air' above myself and the querent. And I just needed to be connected to that. Astrology was just a tool (like any other tool) and I believe the true goal is to develop your own language in astrology, even if it goes outside what is the current belief system. At least that's how you grow up after you ingest all the knowledge you can. That's how you start being helpful to others. We are translators! What a fascinating Art!

Cheers!
Ouranos
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Last edited by Ouranos on Thu May 06, 2021 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 258

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great reminder that horary is as much an art as a science, Ouranos.

I also remember your story about the spiritual guru who "turned around and said: make peace with your ex" and I sometimes retell that story to others. So much that isn't "logical", but fascinating, indeed.

Very Happy
Amelia
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La Jupiter



Joined: 06 Jan 2021
Posts: 22

Posted: Thu May 06, 2021 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic is genius, thanks!
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