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Anthony Lewis On Lilly's Views On Whether To Move

 
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:39 pm    Post subject: Anthony Lewis On Lilly's Views On Whether To Move Reply with quote

Tanit linked me to this article in another post and I thought it might deserve some comment. Here's the article: Lilly On Moving

This is the part that I didn't fully understand:
Quote:
See to the Lords of the Ascendant, the 4th house and 7th house, for if the Lord of the 4th be in the 7th, and be a good Planet, and the Lord of the 1st and 7th be good Planets, or strong in that part of Heaven where they are, or in the whole Figure, if they be Direct, and of swift motion, and in good aspect with good Planets, it is good then to abide still and not remove from the place where the Querent is; but if the Lord of the 7th be with a good Planet, and the Lord of the 4th with an evil one, it is then not good to stay, for if he does, he shall receive much damage there

I was a bit confused about the first part. After thinking about it a lot and after writing my questions down, I think I see what he is saying.

First, Lilly gives two examples, one when it's a sign for staying and another when it's a sign that you should move. He doesn't write so clearly but after some thought I realized that in both examples you have a chart where the 4th house ruler is in the 7th house. This isn't so clear, at least to me. Even though he writes in English Lilly does need a translation. He also says that he wrote Christian Astrology in a hurry because of the plague. Maybe that explains it. To translate:

If the 4th house ruler is in the 7th house, it shows that you're thinking of moving. When the 4th house ruler is in the 7th, then it's better to stay ONLY when there are several quite specific positive signs, namely that both the ASC AND 7th house rulers be good planets AND strongly positioned in the chart AND direct AND swift AND in good aspect with other good planets. Only in such cases should you stay, even if you feel like moving.

On the other hand, if the 4th house ruler is placed in the 7th house (a sign that you're thinking of moving) you only need a few signs that it's better to move, namely that the 7th house ruler is with a good planet and the 4th house ruler is with a bad planet. That makes sense. The 4th house is jinxed, the new house is good.

In these questions about moving he's not so concerned about perfection of aspects like he usually is. He never looks to perfection of aspects between the ASC ruler and the 7th house ruler. No, he's more concerned about the placement of the significators. Later on he gives example of when a very bad emplacement alone signifies that you should move.
Quote:
...or if I found an Infortune in the Ascendant, Peregrine or Retrograde, or if a Peregrine or unfortunate Planet was in the 4th, or if the Lord of the 2nd was weak or ill posited, I advised the Querent to remove his habitation, and gave him reason why he should

Lilly does show when aspects show that the person should move but these show other people who are currently afflicting you.
Quote:
That if the Lord of the Ascendant did lately separate from the Square or Opposition of the Lord of the 6th, 8th or 12th, AND the Moon also did concur in judgment, viz. if she separate from any evil aspect of the Infortunes, they being Lords of either the 7th or 4th &c. and not Friends or Significators in the person of the Querent...I judged he had his health very bad there, was sickly, or tormented with ill servants, by whose means he did not thrive in his Vocation.

I notice in all of his examples, Lilly does not use the ruler of the 7th house as signifying the house itself. The only times he uses the lord of the 7th house to signify something he uses it to show a person's neighbor (or a business partner I suggest)
Quote:
If the Lord of the 7th afflicted the Lord of the Ascendant or 2nd, his overthwart Neighbours had all the Trade, were better furnished with Commodities, &c.

These are all great examples of how Lilly thought, even if he's not the best writer. He never explicitly says not to signify the new house by the ruler of the 7th but all of his examples demonstrate that he does. He never explicitly says to rely more on the emplacement of significators in relevant houses but most of his examples do.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 258

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appreciating your lucid summary, Mark.

I do wonder, when examining planetary strength, whether accidental dignity or essential dignity took priority for Lilly. He gave us a score sheet (http://theastrologydictionary.com/a/accidental-dignity), but two planets can end up having the same score. The 4th lord in its own sign but retrograde, the 7th lord angular but peregrine, for example. I know ultimately it depends on individual charts, but I do think.

Amelia
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience with a planet in its own sign but retrograde (and moving towards a malefic) is that you're seeing a person who is hell bent on destroying themselves. They're in their own sign. They are in control of themselves. No one is forcing them to do anything. They are destructive or self-destructive because they want to be and nothing can talk them out of it. The negative of being retrograde isn't mitigated by being in their own sign. It makes it worse. I learned this lesson the hard way.

Angular but peregrine? I'd say it depends on the planet. Mars or Saturn peregrine is different from Venus or Jupiter peregrine. Still a peregrine planet means you're seeing the worse side of that planet, and being angular means that they have the power to show that bad side.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 518

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting post guys and nice comments!

Of a peregrine planet, Morin de Villefranche says
- When a planet is outside of its own sign, it provokes on thing because of its position in the house it occupies, and another because of its rulership in another house. And effective realization depends on the nature of that of its dispositor, and their zodiacal state.

Essentially, the planet doesn't feel at home and is dependent of someone or something else. And if the planet is Angular, you are out in the open and others will see it. And if Retrograde, you will most likely change your mind and withdraw from the matter.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Interesting post guys and nice comments!

Of a peregrine planet, Morin de Villefranche says
- When a planet is outside of its own sign, it provokes on thing because of its position in the house it occupies, and another because of its rulership in another house. And effective realization depends on the nature of that of its dispositor, and their zodiacal state.

Essentially, the planet doesn't feel at home and is dependent of someone or something else. And if the planet is Angular, you are out in the open and others will see it. And if Retrograde, you will most likely change your mind and withdraw from the matter.


Ouranos, could you please give me the place of your quotation?
Thanks in advance!
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Johannes,

https://www.forumonastrology.com/foa/newmain.html
Book XXI
Click on 112 rules for delineation on the left
This is a resume of the 112 rules of Morin in Book XXI
A site hosted by Robert Corre, James Herschel Holden and Zoltan S. Mason

Cheers!
Ouranos
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you again, Ouranos.

I had hoped you had quoted Morin directly, but I'll study your link in any case!
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quoted from Rule 20 and 30 combined
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