Houses in Indian Astrology?

1
Hello,

is anyone her familiar with Indian Academic Research on the History of Indian Astrology? - If yes do these Historians provide information about the House Systems in Indian Astrology and the respective sources and are there books in English about this?

Is there information wether the Indian Astrology had used Whole Sign Houses before they changed to quadrant houses in the 11thCentury, Robert Hand gave me that impression.

Volker
Volker H. Schendel - Tel.:  00495116409136

Reply from a German Vedic-Astrologer

2
I got this info:

"über die akademische Forschung in dieser Hinsicht bin ich weniger vertraut. Unter Astrologen nehme ich allerdings nur geringes Interesse an einer kritischen Prüfung historischer Quellen wahr.

Das System ganzer Zeichen ist auf jeden Fall grundlegend in der indischen klassischen Astrologie. Das geht aus der Anwendung der Häuser immer wieder klar hervor - zum Beispiel die Zählung von Häusern von unterschiedlichen Faktoren aus, wie etwa dem Mond, oder die Zählung der Häuser in den Unterhoroskopen. Das Kapitel über Quadrantenhäuser (Sri-Pati-System) im Werk von Parashara dürfte mit großer Sicherheit eine spätere Ergänzung sein (wobei das Entstehungsdatum des Brihat-Parashara-Hora-Sastra überhaupt nicht gesichert ist). Andere wichtige Klassiker wie Phaladipika von Mantreshvara (12tes Jahrh.) betonen aber auch ein äquales System, das er offenbar als Ergänzung zum Ganzzeichensystem verstanden wissen will.

Herzliche Grüße.." =

about academic research in this respect I am less familiar. Among astrologers, however, I perceive little interest in a critical examination of historical sources.

The system of whole signs is in any case fundamental in Indian classical astrology. This is clear from the application of the houses over and over again - for example, counting houses from different factors, such as the Moon, or counting houses in sub-charts. The chapter on quadrant houses (Sri-Pati system) in the work of Parashara is almost certainly a later addition (although the date of origin of the Brihat-Parashara-Hora-Sastra is not at all certain). Other important classics like Phaladipika of Mantreshvara (12th century), however, also emphasize an equivalent system, which he apparently wants to be understood as a supplement to the whole-sign system.

Kind regards.."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Volker H. Schendel - Tel.:  00495116409136

Re: Reply from a German Vedic-Astrologer

3
It's funny that your informant should mention Phaladīpik??, as I recently had occasion to translate two pertinent stanzas from that text (15.13-14 in the edition I have) for a friend. This is a late medieval work, so it tells us nothing of the era prior to Śrīpati, but it does make unequivocal use of the terminology of house cusps (bh??vasphuṭa) and junctions (sandhi). (Remember that Indian quadrant houses are constructed along the same lines as suggested by Pancharius, with the cusp as the centre of a house. The 1st house thus begins halfway between the 12th cusp and the ascendant, etc.)

svocce suhṛtkṣetragato grahendraḥ ṣa???bhir balair mukhyabal??nvito 'pi |
sandhau sthitaḥ san na phalapradaḥ sy??d evaṃ vicinty??tra vaded vip??ke ||
bh??veṣu bh??vasphuṭatulyabh??gas tadbh??vajaṃ pūrṇaphalaṃ vidhatte |
sandhau phalaṃ n??sti tadantar??le cintyo 'nup??taḥ khalu khecar??ṇ??m ||

'Even if a planet is in its exaltation or in a friendly sign, endowed with the greatest strength by [the system of] six strengths, if it occupies a junction it will not give any results. Considering thus one should predict [results] in [its] period. In the houses, [a planet] with the same degree as the cusp of the house will give the full results arising from [occupying] that house; on the junction, there is no result; in between, planets should be judged proportionally.'

The author doesn't tell us how to calculate these cusps and junctions, but then again, authors on horoscopy almost never do. The most likely place to look for such information would be in works on mathematical astronomy. I have asked a colleague specializing in that field for possible pre-Śrīpati Sanskrit sources on calculating the longitude of the midheaven (and, ideally, the remaining cusps) and will let you know if I hear back from him.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

5
volkerschendel wrote:
Other important classics like Phaladipika of Mantreshvara (12th century), however, also emphasize an equivalent system, which he apparently wants to be understood as a supplement to the whole-sign system.
Although its often assumed that whole sign or Sripati are the main contenders house wise there is a third system in Indian astrology that gets too little attention.

This is the so called Bhava Chalit chart. Its basically a variant of equal houses but the cusp is in the middle rather than in the beginning of the house.

My interest in this started here on Skyscript several years ago after Therese Hamilton pointed out the western house system called Vehlow was identical to the system used by B.V. Raman to supplement the Rasi chart.

We were calling the house system the Vehlow-Raman or Raman-Vehlow system. However, Therese later suggested the system was quite ancient.Because of that Therese suggested the term Indian Equal House system was more appropriate.

Certainly, in the book ''Predictive Astrology of the Hindus, by Pandit Gopesh Kumar Oijha (1972) the suggestion is made that the Indian Equal House system appears in Jyotish classics.

The author describes the the whole sign or Rasi chart and then moves on to describe the Sripati system which is a variant of the porphyry house system.
Hindu astrologers have been claiming this as the Hindu method of house division. But this is not so. This is an imported system and not an indigenous one.

The original method is what is known as equal house division. Parashar, Jaimini, Matreshwar, all followed this method.
Predictive Astrology of the Hindus, by Pandit Gopesh Kumar Oijha (1972) (page 92).

Before you wrote your post I had already reached out to Martin and the American Jyotishi Ronnie Grisham to see if they could find any textual support for the claim made by Gopesh Kumar Oijha

I am hoping to pull together the results of these researches along with my own work on the astrology of Johannes Vehlow (and other western advocates of the system) into an article I hope to get published.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

The Legend about Robert Hand and Indian Houses

6
Thanks Mark. - The legend goes, that Robert Hand attended 1970 a workshop in New York about Indian Astrology and that the Lecturer presented the Whole Sign Houses equated with the signs as the classical Indian Astrological House method.

Could this be a New York phantasy - because

"The system of whole signs is in any case fundamental in Indian classical astrology. This is clear from the application of the houses over and over again - for example, counting houses from different factors, such as the Moon, or counting houses in sub-charts. "

stays somehow stuck in the vague.

Could You ask Your American Jyotish Ronnie Grisham wether in late Antiquity or shortly after in India at least some practicing Astrologer used WSH for delineation of the Radix itself.

Best Wishes
Volker
Volker H. Schendel - Tel.:  00495116409136

7
I'd be very interested to hear of any actual Sanskrit texts describing the Indian equal-house system. I can't recall ever seeing any (just as I haven't seen any such text explicitly upholding whole-sign houses). The only people I have seen use it have had it from B.V. Raman or his students, although a friend tells me that her teacher in Benares (in the 1970s) also used it. I had forgotten about G.K. Ojha preferring it, but he was from Bihar too, so perhaps it was popular in that area around that time.

In any case, it is a fact easily confirmed (if you read devanagari) by looking at traditional horoscope scrolls that the terms bh??va-cakra, calita-cakra, or bh??va-calita-cakra (bh??va meaning 'house' and calita 'moved', as the planets often move from their sign positions relative to the ascendant, displayed in the r??śi-cakra or 'sign wheel') typically refer to quadrant houses. I haven't ever seen a scroll with a chart calculated in the equal system, though I haven't made a dedicated study of them, so they may well exist.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

8
volkerschendel wrote:
Thanks Mark. - The legend goes, that Robert Hand attended 1970 a workshop in New York about Indian Astrology and that the Lecturer presented the Whole Sign Houses equated with the signs as the classical Indian Astrological House method.

Could this be a New York phantasy - because

"The system of whole signs is in any case fundamental in Indian classical astrology. This is clear from the application of the houses over and over again - for example, counting houses from different factors, such as the Moon, or counting houses in sub-charts. "

stays somehow stuck in the vague.
Yes it is intriguing. In a recent interview Robert Hand repeated the claim that he first became aware of what went on to be whole sign houses (The Rasi chart) in this lecture from BV Raman in the early 1970s. He actually, stated this was when Project Hindsight was born.

However, our regular contributor here Therese Hamilton, a California based veteran western Jyotish practitioner is equally adamant that BV Raman was using Indian Equal Houses in his books.

I think this apparent contradiction can be resolved if you take the view that the Indian Equal Houses/Bhava Chalit is intended as a supplementary system to the Rasi chart to compare the position of planets in relation to the ascendant degree.

This is certainly the position adopted by many contemporary Jyotish practitioners. In that respect it can be seen like another varga. As far as I can determine the Bhava Chalit system is used not only to measure planetary strength but also topical rulership.

https://jothishi.com/the-bhava-chalit-chart/

volkerschendel wrote:
Could You ask Your American Jyotish Ronnie Grisham wether in late Antiquity or shortly after in India at least some practicing Astrologer used WSH for delineation of the Radix itself.
mmm I cant make any promises in that respect. Thats a potentially huge undertaking. My focus has been a lot narrower. However, I guess as Ronnie is looking at some texts for greater clarity on the house system being described these two things could be merged together. I hope Martin will also consider this option in texts he might examine.

Over on the traditional forum Martin has rather put the cat amongst the pigeons by not only challenging many assumed references to whole signs in hellenistic astrology (see his recent paper) but also questioning the assumed default position of the Rasi chart in classical Jyotish (excluding Tajika).

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

9
I just noticed this:
Mark wrote:Before you wrote your post I had already reached out to Martin and the American Jyotishi Ronnie Grisham to see if they could find any textual support for the claim made by Gopesh Kumar Oijha
I don't think I got that message. Did you use the Skyscript PM function or email? In any case, as I said above, I don't know of any such textual support.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

10
Martin wrote:
I don't think I got that message. Did you use the Skyscript PM function or email? In any case, as I said above, I don't know of any such textual support.
To be fair it was just an initial raising of the issue at the recent STA Q &A zoom session you and Deborah Houlding did. I sent you a PM on this but you said you would not have any free time to explore this until after March.

I was intending to follow this up more explicitly in more detail. However, Volkerschendel's post rather moved the issue up the agenda. Although I think I have a different focus with my interest in the Bhava Chalit system rather than trying to get into a much bigger debate about the status of rasi/whole sign houses in the entire Indian astrological tradition (outside Tajika). Still, I suppose the issues are interconnected.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

11
Martin wrote:
I'd be very interested to hear of any actual Sanskrit texts describing the Indian equal-house system. I can't recall ever seeing any (just as I haven't seen any such text explicitly upholding whole-sign houses). The only people I have seen use it have had it from B.V. Raman or his students, although a friend tells me that her teacher in Benares (in the 1970s) also used it. I had forgotten about G.K. Ojha preferring it, but he was from Bihar too, so perhaps it was popular in that area around that time.
Frankly, I had rather hoped with your knowledge of Sanskrit you might be the ideal person to re-examine the classic Jyotish texts! However, perhaps that is too daunting a prospect with the other commitments you have.

Martin wrote:
In any case, it is a fact easily confirmed (if you read devanagari) by looking at traditional horoscope scrolls that the terms bh??va-cakra, calita-cakra, or bh??va-calita-cakra (bh??va meaning 'house' and calita 'moved', as the planets often move from their sign positions relative to the ascendant, displayed in the r??śi-cakra or 'sign wheel') typically refer to quadrant houses. I haven't ever seen a scroll with a chart calculated in the equal system, though I haven't made a dedicated study of them, so they may well exist.
I think your opening sentence 'In any case, it is a fact easily confirmed (if you read devanagari)'' clearly decimates the field down of qualified researchers considerably!

Although, why more of this kind of research isn't going on in India mystifies me.

Kenneth Johnson has previously expressed the view that there are literally thousands of Jyotish texts that remain untranslated from various Indian languages. So we cannot assume that translated , preserved texts are definitive. On the other hand you cant prove something with a negative.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

12
Martin wrote:
It's funny that your informant should mention Phaladīpik??, as I recently had occasion to translate two pertinent stanzas from that text (15.13-14 in the edition I have) for a friend. This is a late medieval work, so it tells us nothing of the era prior to Śrīpati, but it does make unequivocal use of the terminology of house cusps (bh??vasphuṭa) and junctions (sandhi).

svocce suhṛtkṣetragato grahendraḥ ṣa???bhir balair mukhyabal??nvito 'pi |
sandhau sthitaḥ san na phalapradaḥ sy??d evaṃ vicinty??tra vaded vip??ke ||
bh??veṣu bh??vasphuṭatulyabh??gas tadbh??vajaṃ pūrṇaphalaṃ vidhatte |
sandhau phalaṃ n??sti tadantar??le cintyo 'nup??taḥ khalu khecar??ṇ??m ||

'Even if a planet is in its exaltation or in a friendly sign, endowed with the greatest strength by [the system of] six strengths, if it occupies a junction it will not give any results. Considering thus one should predict [results] in [its] period. In the houses, [a planet] with the same degree as the cusp of the house will give the full results arising from [occupying] that house; on the junction, there is no result; in between, planets should be judged proportionally.'
Its intriguing as everything you have stated is consistent with the Bhava Chalit system. It doesn't provide any evidence quadrants are being discussed here at all. This could very well be an ASC derived house /bhava system.

Martin wrote:
The author doesn't tell us how to calculate these cusps and junctions, but then again, authors on horoscopy almost never do. The most likely place to look for such information would be in works on mathematical astronomy. I have asked a colleague specializing in that field for possible pre-Śrīpati Sanskrit sources on calculating the longitude of the midheaven (and, ideally, the remaining cusps) and will let you know if I hear back from him.
It will be interesting but as you know mathematical astronomical texts are not a definitive guide to what astrologers were doing. Hence astronomical knowledge of the MC/Meridian for culminating planets doesn't provide evidence quadrant houses are being used in non-Tajika astrological texts does it?

Martin wrote:
Remember that Indian quadrant houses are constructed along the same lines as suggested by Pancharius, with the cusp as the centre of a house. The 1st house thus begins halfway between the 12th cusp and the ascendant, etc.)
I have seen different interpretations of what Pancharius was actually discussing. He seems to be yet another astrologer in the long line throughout history that thought they had identified Ptolemy's approach to houses.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly