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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Regiomontanus and Morinus program Question
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 32

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject: Regiomontanus and Morinus program Question Reply with quote

I use the Morinus program and had a question about the Zenith Distance in Regiomontanus settings.(ZD) I thought Zenith Distance was 90- Altitude although I know a lot of things change in Regio system.Just asking if anyone can explain how Zenith Distance is found in the Morinus astrology program.thanks -Harold
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Morinus the ZD is the arc measured on the Prime Vertical starting from the Zenith or the Nadir, whichever is the smallest, up to the point where the Circle of Houses passing through the position of the planet intersects. Therefore, ZD is related to the Campanian Mundane Position - CMP - (Prime Vertical Azimuth)

ZD is not to be confused with the Real Zenith Distance - | ZDv | -, equal to the 90 ° complement of the Astronomical Elevation: | ZDv | = 90 - | EL |.

Roberto
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 32

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:41 am    Post subject: To Roberto Reply with quote

Thanks for the help.I notice that Prime Vertical Distance in Janus program matches Morinus ZD.I have a book by Benjamin Martin who does a Regiomontanus chart by hand.I also recently bought Morin AG book 22 which uses Regio system.I haven't seen ZD used so far in any text.Do you know of a formula to find Regio ZD? Harold
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Challenger007



Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 24

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any error in the calculations? Do I need to take into account any coefficient? I doubt my calculations are correct.
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A simple method to calculate ZD is to first calculate the Campanian Mundane Position - CMP -. This can be done by a change of coordinates starting from one of the three ones: Equatorial -EqCS-, Ecliptic-EcCS- or Altazimuth (Horizontal) -HCS. After that:

if 360>CMP≥270 ---> ZD = CMP - 270 with prefix Z
if 270>CMP≥180 ---> ZD = 270 - CMP with prefix Z
if 180>CMP≥090 ---> ZD = CMP - 090 with prefix N
if 090>CMP≥000 ---> ZD = 090 - CMP with prefix N

Roberto
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 32

Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:25 am    Post subject: To Roberto Reply with quote

Roberto-I am not sure what points the 3 coordinates represent.I am working with a chart that has the Sun at 28 38 Scorpio .It looks like EcCS is subtracted from an ecliptic point.Could you explain what is meant by Ecliptic-EcCS? Thanks-Harold
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Harold,

EcCS means Ecliptic Coordinate System and yes, it's the astrological position in the signs (starting from 0° in Aries).

Given an astrological chart, let me try to reckon ZD starting from the EqCS, i.e from the Equatorial Coordinate System. We’ll do unnecessary intermediate passages but perhaps useful :-). Please forgive me any typing error. I am a bit rusty but I think the procedure is correct.

After several attempts I see that it is not possible to upload my answer with just one post. So I have to do it with two.

Each object has its Right Ascension and Declination - RA, δ -
Obviously we also have the Local Geographic Latitude - ϕ - and the exact time of birth, so we have the Right Ascension of the Medium Coeli -RAMC-

Let’s define first the Hourly Angle (Up Meridian Distance - UMD -) :
H = RA – RAMC
---
if H ≥ 0 ---> H = H
if H <0> H = 360°+ H (2π + H)

*****
Let's now switch from Equatorial Coordinate to Astronomical Altazimuth Coordinate.
Named:
-h the Elevation
-An the astronomical Azimuth (0 ° to the North Point, clockwise)
We have:
h=arcsen (senϕ senδ+cosϕ cosδ cosH)
---
I=arcos [(cosϕ senδ-senϕ cosδ cosH)/cosH]
---
If I>180° (I> π) ---> An = 360° – I (2π – I)
If- I≤180° (I≤ π) ---> An = I

*****
And now from Astronomical Altazimuth Coordinate to Astrological Altazimuth Coordinate:
-h remains unchanged
-Al the astrological azimuth (0 ° to the East Point, counterclockwise)
---
II = 450° – An (5/2 π – An)
---
If II ≤ 360° (II ≤ 2π) ---> Al = II
If II > 360° (II > 2π) ---> Al = II – 360° (II – 2π)

*****
Finally the Prime Vertical Coordinate from the Astrological Altazimuth ones.
-hpv Prime Vertical Elevation (horizontal coordinate)
-Apv Prime Vertical Azimuth ( vertical coordinate)

In the following post...
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally the Prime Vertical Coordinate from the Astrological Altazimuth ones.
-hpv Prime Vertical Elevation (horizontal coordinate)
-Apv Prime Vertical Azimuth ( vertical coordinate)
---
III = arcsen (cosh*sen Al)
---
if Al < 180° (Al< π) then hpv = abs(III)
if Al ≥ 180° (Al≥ π) then hpv = - abs(III)

Now we define:
y = – senh
x = cosh*cosAl
IV = arctag y / x
---
if IV <0 ° (IV <0> V = IV + 360° (IV + 2π)
if IV ≥ 0 ° (IV ≥ 0) --->V = IV
---
if x <0 ° (x <0>VI = V -180° (V – π)
if x ≥ 0 ° (x ≥ 0) --->VI = V
---
if VI <0 ° (VI <0>Apv = VI + 360° (VI + 2π)
if VI ≥ 0 ° (VI ≥ 0) --->Apv = VI

Obviously CMP = Apv

After that we have ZD as already said:
if 360>CMP≥270 ---> ZD = CMP - 270 with prefix Z
if 270>CMP≥180 ---> ZD = 270 - CMP with prefix Z
if 180>CMP≥090 ---> ZD = CMP - 090 with prefix N
if 090>CMP≥000 ---> ZD = 090 - CMP with prefix N

Roberto
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry but the Skyscript editor doesn't like math notation very much. Some lines are obviously altered ...
I have made several attempts to fix the problem but I cannot.


In any case, I think it's all quite understandable ...

Roberto
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 32

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:58 pm    Post subject: To Roberto Reply with quote

Hello Roberto- I want to express my gratitude for your post.I realize you must have spent a lot of time in this formula.I am in the process now of working through the several steps to obtain the CMP-Regards-Harold New York USA
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Harold,

At least under the editor viewpoint I have found the solution.
All numerical values are in degrees.

Each object has its Right Ascension and Declination - RA, δ -
Obviously we also have the Local Geographic Latitude - ϕ - and the exact time of birth, so we have the Right Ascension of the Medium Coeli -RAMC-

Let’s define first the Hourly Angle (Up Meridian Distance - UMD -) :
H = RA – RAMC
---
if H≥0 -> H = H
if H is negative -> H = 360+H

*****
Let's now switch from Equatorial Coordinate to Astronomical Altazimuth Coordinate.
Named:
-h the Elevation
-An the astronomical Azimuth (0 to the North Point, clockwise)
We have:
h=arcsen (senϕ senδ+cosϕ cosδ cosH)
---
I=arcos [(cosϕ senδ-senϕ cosδ cosH)/cosH]
---
If I>180 -> An = 360–I
If I≤180 -> An = I

*****
And now from Astronomical Altazimuth Coordinate to Astrological Altazimuth Coordinate:
-h remains unchanged
-Al the astrological azimuth (0 to the East Point, counterclockwise)
---
II = 450 – An
---
If II≤360 -> Al = II
If II>360 -> Al = II–360

*****
Finally the Prime Vertical Coordinate from the Astrological Altazimuth ones.
-hpv Prime Vertical Elevation (horizontal coordinate)
-Apv Prime Vertical Azimuth ( vertical coordinate)

---
III = arcsen (cosh*sen Al)
---
if Al is less than 180 -> hpv = abs(III)
if Al≥180 -> hpv = - abs(III)

Now we define:
y = – senh
x = cosh*cosAl
IV = arctag y / x
---
if IV is negative -> V = IV+360
if IV≥0 -> V = IV
---
if x is negative -> VI = V-180
if x≥0 -> VI = V
---
if VI is negative -> Apv = VI+360
if VI≥0 ->Apv = VI

Obviously CMP = Apv

After that we have ZD as already said:
if 360>CMP≥270 -> ZD = CMP - 270 with prefix Z
if 270>CMP≥180 -> ZD = 270 - CMP with prefix Z
if 180>CMP≥090 -> ZD = CMP - 090 with prefix N
if 090>CMP≥000 -> ZD = 090 - CMP with prefix N

Roberto
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 32

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject: To Roberto Reply with quote

Roberto-I was able to use your formula to find ZD and CMP.I have used books by George Noonan and Benjamin Martin to see how astronomy applies to astrology.Names I have found on Skyscript.I have an astronomy program (Voyager).I know as you said in the first post that ZD is a point on the circle of position which is not so clear on an astronomical program.I also have a program called Horizons (Matrix/Winstar) which shows the chart as it applies to the earth.Are there any books or websites which use or explain the CMP/ZD formula? Harold
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Harold,

Attention: ZD is not a point. As already explained, it is the arc measured on the Prime Vertical (a great circle) starting from the Zenith or the Nadir, whichever is the smallest, up to the point where the Circle of Houses passing through the position of the planet intersects.

When you ask if there are any books or websites that use or explain CMP / ZD formulas, you definitely mean books that show graphic illustrations that allow for their easy understanding. But that's not all. It is also necessary to have mastery of many other concepts.

As far as I know, there is no book that totally covers the subject. A great place to start is Bob Makransky's "Primary Directions". It is divided into three parts:
primarydirections_1
primarydirections_2
primarydirections_3

This work is the backbone of the Morinus program and, apart from two slight inaccuracies, it is perfect.

Now it is difficult to find a site that allows its free download, but it can be downloaded from my OneDrive:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!An6WRGt8Lu0BlDpbcPEpvL9Opj41?e=sRG3K0
(copy-paste the link in the browser)

Roberto
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gothic5



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 32

Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:40 pm    Post subject: Roberto Reply with quote

Hello Roberto-I copied this link !An6WRGt8Lu0BlDpbcPEpvL9Opj41?e=sRG3K0 .After pasting in the browser cursor flashes but nothing opens.Under browser reads error "generalException"
message "General Exception While Processing"-Harold
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robhywolf



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 44
Location: Lucca, Italy

Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try again, copying the link completely:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!An6WRGt8Lu0BlDpbcPEpvL9Opj41?e=sRG3K0
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