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Synastry placements by Dorotheus
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 254

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:04 am    Post subject: Synastry placements by Dorotheus Reply with quote

Synastry is thought to be a relatively new field, and not everybody believes in the modern way of doing it. John Frawley in his book The Real Astrology, Chapter 15, went as far as saying that planetary contacts are trivial and superficial. The secret of real synastry, Frawley said, lies in individual temperament as depicted in the partners' natal charts. Is it hot, dry, wet, or cold? Is it watery, earthy, fiery, or airy? What are they missing? What do they need? Only from there we can work out love and suitability.

But "superficial" comparison of aspects apparently goes back to ancient times, although the discussion tended to be scattered, and certainly wasn't as systematic, lengthy and sometimes tedious as what we have today. I feel like contemporary synastry pays so much attention to modern planets and fancy points we risk sidestepping, if not losing altogether, the older gems of wisdom.

I've been indexing as I read ancient and medieval astrologers, and I'd like to share what I found about synastry in Dorotheus' work with you, in case it is of interest. Maybe if I got lucky, some of you would even enlighten me on your experience with these placements.

The below are taken from Dorotheus of Sidon, 1st centuary AD., CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM, trans. David Pingree. Book 2, Chapter 5 & Book 5, Chapter 16.

Placements that indicate suitability

Same-sign ascendants
Sun in the other's Midheaven
Sun in the other's ASC
Moon in the other's Midheaven
Moon in the other's ASC
One's Moon the sign of the other's Venus, especially when the two Moons are in trine
One's Venus or Jupiter the sign of the other's Venus or Jupiter

Quote:
It is thus if, in the nativities of two men or of two women, a star from among the benefics is in the same sign as it indicates that there will be brotherhood and love and agreement between the two.


Placements that indicate injury, argument and mismatch:

Quote:
But if, wherever one luminary of one of the two [marriage partners] is, in this sign there is a malefic for the other, then it indicates injury and little agreement, but if, wherever a luminary of one of the two is, in it there is a benefic for the other, or all the benefics of the two natives are in cardines, or the lot of both of them is in the same sign, it indicates agreement and suitability.


Edit to add:
If one's Moon happens to be in the sign of that happens to be in the other's house of misery [the sixth]:
Quote:
It indicates that he whose Moon happens to be in the house of misery of his companion will subjugate his companion and tower over him until his companion becomes obedient, [and] it is like the obedience of a slave to his master.


Bio from Amazon:
Dorotheus of Sidon, who appears to have lived in Alexandria, flourished in the first century AD. He wrote his Pentateuch (five books) on astrology in Greek, in verse... Written a century before Ptolemy, here is the mainstream of Greek astrology. It will handsomely repay study.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Amelia,
It is true that the Ancients had more to say with just a few cards in their deck. When you mix too many ingredients in the soup, you end up loosing the essence or true meaning of a relationship.
I respect those who work with composite or synastry charts and here is what I focus on when I look at a relationship chart.
1) Of course, the Elements, Modes, Angular planets and so on based on Classical astrology.
https://classicalastrologer.me/nature-of-signs-planets-in-classical-astrology-2/
Some programs like Planetdance calculate the Temperaments.
2) The personal points of the chart (ASC, MC, Sun, Moon and the axis 1/7 and their rulers.
3) Closest aspect between personal planets will indicate a 'shared' experience.
4) Do not disregard the Antiscia as they represent the 'shadow' side of us. My daughter's Sun is Antiscia my MC within 1 degree. She awakened me to focus on my goals in life.
5) The 9th Harmonic is especially significant. Look up at conjunctions and oppositions to your natal planet and vice-versa.
For example, in the 9th Harmonic, my significant other has her NN conjunct my ASC and same for her, my NN is conjunct her ASC.
Just a couple of months into the relationship, we oftentimes discussed about souvenirs we had together. As if we knew each other for decades and maybe from a previous lifetime.
Essentially, the 9th Harmonic refers to a Navamsa Chart in Indian Astrology.
6) Look up at your partner's chart and put the day and month of your own chart (do not change the year or location). Do the same the other way around. This is like drawing a diurnal chart and focus on the Angles
On my birthday, my SO has her diurnal ASC right on my Sun. I know she always has a special gift for me! Smile

Cheers!
Ouranos
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for sharing AmeliaS and Ouranos..

it is fun to share! there are so many different types of relationships, i imagine there are countless ways for people to connect..

one of the ways that i have been most curious about is the connections between 2 peoples moon position.. in terms of living together i think this is quite important.. so that is a ''living together' type relationship that would be different from another type of relationship.. but i do note that the fact that people have different moons in different signs and elements is an important distinction that i like making when looking at charts between 2 people...

some of the most interesting astro connections from a relationship point of view are the sun-saturn connections when they happen, especially the conjunction.. the sun and saturn are like opposites and opposites do indeed attract, but for different reasons.. saturn to saturn connections are a different matter.. i have seen this in my family - me and my mom, since i was born when she was about 29.45 years old.. this is a common connection because women often have kids around this time.... depending on other factors, this combo can be quite close, but later quite challenging too! i see the connection in my family going back a few generations, so perhaps the idea that saturn is connected to foundations and buildings makes sense from an ancestral point of view..

there are so many different types of relationships, i suspect there are countless ways to make connections with people and thru the astrology...

it might be fun to offer up a couple of random charts to ask how the charts connect... we could do that for an astro experiment if someone was into setting it up..i am all for fun and games!
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Ouranos



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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true James of the Moon/Saturn connection as they share a similar symbolic cycle, Days for the Moon, Years for Saturn.
And Saturn is Exalted in the sign of relationship Libra... I promise fidelity etc.
One thing I forgot to mention: the midpoints. They reveal so much about the persons.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ouranos - we could definitely throw the whole astro toolkit at this topic!

i still think it would be fun to offer a few charts to comment on, especially with someone knowing clearly the relationships at work between the 2~!
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really appreciate your contribution, James and Ouranos!

In my experience, opposites do attract: the great love of my life has a Leo stellium (Sun, Venus, Mars) while I have an Aquarius Mars. I am Taurus Sun and he is Scorpio Moon. He has only fire and water personal planets, and I am all air and earth. Nothing overlaps. We never got along but we were madly in love.

I share James' view that Moon aspects (I think even by sign) are significant if two people are to live together, or just generally spending lots of time in each other's presence. It will feel natural to them. Also the interplay between angles and lights as brought up by Ouranos is something I note in significant relationships.

I once did a small survey on 40 celeb couples who claimed to fall in love at first sight and nurture a long-lasting passion for each other. All of them have node/light, angle/light, angle/node connections. No exception. (It's easy to pull up a list of "10 Hollywood couples who fall in love at first sight" from tabloids, and astro-seek has tons of ready-to-use synastry charts.) (I'm repeating myself from a recent horary post but it's pertinent here.)

Example charts... Prince Charles & Camilla?

They've been very devoted to each other since early adulthood. And after everything they'd been through, they still chose each other over everything.

https://famouspeople.astro-seek.com/marriage/prince-charles/camilla-duchess-of-cornwall

Ascendant conjunction (Dorotheus' suitability +1). Sun conjunct South Node which is a common love-at-first-sight aspect. Personal planets occupying totally different parts in their respective natal charts. One has a House 12 stellium, one has three angular, and the rest in good houses. Given their angles almost exactly overlap, it does seem like an opposite-attract case, but my feeling is they also compliment each other?

Amelia
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amelia,

thanks! and thanks for the example with the rich couples charts... i neglected to mention the importance of the nodes.. for the longest time i ignored them! and then i realized how important they are... i guess i am a slow learner... just from the nodal angle, one sees in charles the moon conjunction north node in taurus and how it is complimented with camillas moon in cancer!

another way of looking at charts like this is recognizing the relationships between any number of planet positions, but perhaps the easiest place to start is via the sun, moon and ascendants.... in indian astrology they look at the sign position relationships.. using charles and camilla as an example - moon placements are in a 3/11 position... camillas moon in cancer is in the 3rd to charles moon in taurus and charles moon in taurus is in the 11th to camillas moon in cancer... sun to sun is a 5/9 relationship - again these connections are very favourable... i can't tell where the ascendants are in the link you have given.. i see one of them,but not the other... looking further it appears they share the same rising sign...

john lennon and paul mccartney had a very successful partnership and wrote most of the music for the most successful pop band of the past 50 years in many regards... below is a chart of the 2 overlapped...



the most obvious connection is between lennons venus and pauls north node setting up an important venusian relationship between the two.. there suns are in a 5-9 relationship, moons in a 7-7 relationship and ascendants in a 6-8 relationship..

the composite chart below has venus on the ascendant which again emphasizes the hamony these 2 were able to create with one another.. the approach of putting 2 charts together via the midpoints is a relatively new one, but i have found that it has merit.. these types of connections would not be immediately seen otherwise.. they are essentially a midpoint to all the points in the 2 charts..

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AmeliaS



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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks ever so, James. You see I just compared the Moon's positions of Lennon and his great love Yoko Ono. It’s 3/11. Suns 5/9. Ascendants 7/7! Wow, doesn’t that look like what you found out about Lennon/McCartney and Charles/Camilla? Amazing.

What stood out for me for Lennon/McCartney was also how many exact aspects there are. I don’t believe I’ve seen a synastry like this. [Edit: the ascendants aren't in the same signs; my earlier comment had it wrong]. Sun-Moon sextile, Moon-Mars opposition, Moon-Saturn square, Venus-Jupiter sextile, Venus-Saturn square, Mars-Jupiter square, Mars-Mars conjunction… and so on.

There are also a few exact aspects that involve both Sun and Moon and the outer planets. Telltale of their influence on the world. Moon-Pluto opposition, Moon-Uranus trine, and Sun-Neptune square (!). And no I haven’t listed all… not even just the exact aspects.

Amelia


Last edited by AmeliaS on Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: nodes in synastry.
I keep going back to this one article:
https://cafeastrology.com/articles/relationshipastrologytips.html
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks amelia.... you have some of that wrong with lennon and mccartney - they don't have their ascendants in the same sign.... yes, the yoko ono and lennon combo has a lot of nice connections in a general sense... the one that catches my attention is ono's mercury-north node conjunction with lennons venus in opposition and on the south node.. i think of mercury-venus as a songwriting combo...

hi pankajdubey.... that is a pretty good general article on relationships.. i thought the short commentary on the nodes was lacking... when a planet is in contact with the north node, it will also be in contact with the south node... the north and south node are inseparable.. my favorite book on the nodes is by judith hall.. here is a link to it!
https://www.judithhillastrology.com/shop/books/The-Lunar-Nodes-Your-Key-to-Excellent-Chart-Interpretation-p28243787
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks amelia.... you have some of that wrong with lennon and mccartney - they don't have their ascendants in the same sign.... yes, the yoko ono and lennon combo has a lot of nice connections in a general sense... the one that catches my attention is ono's mercury-north node conjunction with lennons venus in opposition and on the south node.. i think of mercury-venus as a songwriting combo...

hi pankajdubey.... that is a pretty good general article on relationships.. i thought the short commentary on the nodes was lacking... when a planet is in contact with the north node, it will also be in contact with the south node... the north and south node are inseparable.. my favorite book on the nodes is by judith hall.. here is a link to it!
https://www.judithhillastrology.com/shop/books/The-Lunar-Nodes-Your-Key-to-Excellent-Chart-Interpretation-p28243787

Thanks, james_m,
The link that I had originally intended to post was from 2009 but it is not active anymore on zodiacal.com. It was by ? Geisler - A Tale of the Dragon by Pat Geisler , a summary however is on this thread:(peace angel)
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/201564.html
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
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Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, James, for pointing out my mistake regarding Lennon/McCartney's ascendents. I edited my reply to reflect it.

Meghan Markle (1981) & Henry of England (1984)



Theirs was a whirlwind romance that culminated in marriage. Henry of England claimed to have fallen head over heels in love at first sight.

There are several hard aspects between their angles and inner planets, but a relative shortage of aspects among the inner planets themselves. That would be even more striking if we compare this chart to Lennon/McCartney and many other couples.

One prevalent belief that never sits right with me, is that aspects between inner planets (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars) are indicators of attraction. More the merrier is the common approach. I think this is clearly overrated. In fact, I don't think it's ever reliable. These aspects seem to have more to say about "how" two people get along than anything else.

It's the interplay among nodes/angles/lights, if only sometimes with inner planets thrown in, for example node/venus, that can be counted on to present themselves in those intense relationships that make us murmur to our pillows "the one", "my soulmate", and in the profound bonds between best friends, artistic partners, life partners, etc...

I'll be sure to check out Judith Hill when I can. There isn't an e-version. Much of what I know about Nodes came from Celeste Teal's Lunar Nodes: Discover Your Soul's Karmic Mission (For Kindle version click here)

Mercury/Venus as a (song-)writing combo: I have that in my natal, James. A Gemini Mercury in the 9th/MC (depending on the house system in use) rules both my ASC and MC. My Venus is also in Gemini. That venus is my most visible planet, right on the MC. I'm sure there are a bunch of better writers out there, but somehow I've always been the writer/scholar in class. And the go-to person whenever my bosses need someone to write up something quickly and nicely. I wish I could write songs. Right now I only write stories as a pastime.


Last edited by AmeliaS on Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ouranos



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Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick note on the 9th Harmonic
When looking at the Harmonic chart of Person A, you compare it to the Natal chart of Person B. And you focus on the conjunctions.
The formula to find an Harmonic is Planet position X the Harmonic number.
If the number is greater than 360, you substract 360 until you come up with a number within 360.
And the Orb of the conjunction is defined by the Harmonic itself. Say you look at the 9th Harmonic, a 9 degree orb will be considered an exact aspect within 1 degree. For the 5th Harmonic, you would use a 5 degree orb. And of course, the closer the better.
Plenty of programs are calculating Harmonics.
+++++++++++++++
For Lennon/McCartney, the 9th Harmonic ASC of Lennon falls at 29 Virgo exactly conjunct the natal ASC of McCartney. Talking about a fusional relationship!
For Meghan and Harry, Meghan's Moon 9th Harmonic (Lord of her ASC) falls on the MC - Saturn (Lord of his ASC) of Harry. A relationship that comes with obligations. Moon/Saturn for me is the "I will survive" aspect and also a strong desire for 'self-sufficiency "I have grown old mom" which is characteristic of their couple.
Harry's 9th Harmonic Sun falls on the ASC/Node of Meghan.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks pankajdubey

that link with peace angels comment is quite good! reading it i was reminded of my connections to my brother - his venus is on my north node and my jupiter is on his north node.. we get along really well and always have.. if i was to point to the astrology of our relationship, this would be the first comment i would make on it! i can't believe what a dunce i was in the past for not acknowledging the importance of the nodes.. hey- it is never too late to wake up!

thanks amelia,

it is fun to look at these examples you provide! i agree with your comment here and would like to single out the relationship of the charts with the position of saturn in both..

AmeliaS wrote:

One prevalent belief that never sits right with me, is that aspects between inner planets (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars) are indicators of attraction. More the merrier is the common approach. I think this is clearly overrated. In fact, I don't think it's ever reliable. These aspects seem to have more to say about "how" two people get along than anything else.

It's the interplay among nodes/angles/lights, if only sometimes with inner planets thrown in, for example node/venus, that can be counted on to present themselves in those intense relationships that make us murmur to our pillows "the one", "my soulmate", and in the profound bonds between best friends, artistic partners, life partners, etc...


what i see are important saturn aspects.. this makes sense to me given the high profile position of harry being directly connected to the british royalty and power.. meghans sun squares onto harrys saturn-midheaven conjunction.. in fact - his moon is in an opposition to this same saturn-midheaven conjunction... meanwhile meghan has a moon-saturn conjunction... these 2 aspects in the individual charts shows up in the composite chart as a square and also involve the midheaven angle.. saturn itself is in the composite first house... moon is in cancer in the 10th house..



the 2 charts together are somewhat lacking in connections of the inner planets as you note.. there are outer planet connections to the inner planets which feeds into the idea of this being a more fateful type relationship, as opposed to one of 'love'... maybe love can be learned over the course of time?? it is in us all and really hinges on our willingness to spread it around or not! sometimes it is easier and other times it is harder, lol...

i would however say that there is one very strong connection between the 2 charts that isn't immediately obvious.. it is more obvious in sidereal - harrys sun and meghans moon are essentially conjunct.... it is an 12 degree aspect, but i think it is quite important... her venus is in a 10 degree conjunction harrys sun as well... the midpoint of her moon-venus is very close to the place of harrys sun... that has to constitute an important and very harmonious connection as i see it.. and it isn't immediately obvious either..

but as you note - the angles connect here in an interesting way - ascendants 7-7.. meghans mars to midheaven square directly connects to the degree of harrys ascendant.. that really stands out.. but as you note - it is an angle connection, as opposed to inner planet connection..

as i said previously, i really believe there are any number of relationships to be had and the astrological possibilities connected to them must be infinite as well... some are more obvious then others... so maybe there is no one recipe for the astro needed for relationships to develop..

that is cool about the mercury-venus ties in your chart.. thanks for sharing.. it is just a passing observation i have made on the nature of mercury-venus contacts in a number of composer and songwriter charts i have looked at.. it ain't foolproof, but it shows up a lot! i think of it as a person who puts across ideas in an artistic and appealing manner..

Ouranos

thanks for the comments on the importance of the D9 chart of the navamsha chart for relationships... this is the talk i hear regularly from indian astrology, but i don't see many examples of it... i really haven't made a close study of it, although i have read 3 or 4 books on the navamsha and i am always seeing it used in examples in a number of these indian astrology books i read too... it would be fun to take up a separate thread on this topic in the indian astrology forum if you feel like it...

cheers james
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
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Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey: thank you for the link. Many comments on the thread resonate with me (and I'm sure you, too)!

Ouranos: Prince Charles’ Descendent is conjunct Camilla’s 9th harmonic Sun by one degree. Both Charles’ Venus and Camilla’s 9th harmonic Venus are in Libra. I'm not familiar with the 9th harmonic but will from now on keep my eyes open for both theories and chart placements. Thanks!

Thank you, James: heart melted at mention of the beautiful bond you share with your brother. With both benefics on the nodes that must be such a pleasant and loving relationship. I'm happy for you.

I have a few guy friends with whom I share Venus/South Node with. It isn't the instant intimacy I feel with people who have light/node with me. What is in place of that is social grace, playful adoration (but not necessarily flirting) and mutual respect. I find their foibles and very occasional neglect (bound to happen in friendships that span years), and they mine, very easy to forgive. I think Venus/Node can take time to play out, oh but they really, really last!

Also grateful for the keen observations about the Saturn / MC aspects, James. Harry and Meghan certainly have rocked each other's boats in terms of career, relations to the monarchy, and public image... Now they're rolling out a new charity together. And thanks so for the sidereal reading - it didn't occur to me to look for contacts that way until just now, especially when connections do not show up immediately in tropical.

Both You and Ouranos are great inspirations when it comes to learning outside western astrology...

James wrote:
maybe love can be learned over the course of time?? it is in us all and really hinges on our willingness to spread it around or not! [...] i really believe there are any number of relationships to be had and the astrological possibilities connected to them must be infinite as well... some are more obvious then others... so maybe there is no one recipe for the astro needed for relationships to develop..

Agreed.

In gratitude,
Amelia
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