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digbala
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:40 am    Post subject: digbala Reply with quote

i have been thinking about digbala... here is an article that is a pretty good overview on it

https://blog.astrologylover.com/directional-strength-astrology-digbala/

dig essentially means direction.. so the strength a planet can receive is based on the direction the planet is found in the chart...

my problem with this is no consideration is given for other issues like whether the chart is nocturnal or diurnal... it doesn't factot into digbala... another problem i have with digbala is there is no rationale explained for why these planets get greater strength in a particular direction... in all theories or basic script in astrology this is a common feature... one is told a planet rules a particular sign, but the rationale has to be figured out intuitively by the curious person, or one is left just accepting astro dogma... as i am not willing to accept astro dogma, i am trying to understand why a particular planet would receive this greater strength via it's particular direction.... if anyone has any thoughts - feel free to express them...

digbala is an important ingredient to the greater issue of shadbala..

Planets Directional Strength
Sun and Mars 10th House
Jupiter & Mercury Ascendant
Saturn 7th House
Venus and Moon 4th House

i have read nothing on what happens when the planet gets greater strength by being in a particular direction, but is in a sign that it has affinity with or not... no mention either if one thinks that a nighttime or daytime birth would alter these views either.. one is left to surmise on so much of astrology and it is not completely clear to me how these viewpoints were arrived at.. thoughts welcome..
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Ouranos



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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello James,

Interesting article and questioning.
I have read in Vedic Astro Textbook by Narasimha Rao where he says, besides the directions you give for the planets, "3.2.15 Moon, Mars and Saturn are strong in the night time. Sun, Jupiter and Venus are strong in the daytime. Mercury is always strong.
Natural malefics are strong in Krishna paksha (From Full Moon to New Moon).
Natural benefics are strong in Sukla paksha. (From New Moon to Full Moon)

So from the above, my guess is that it is based on the motion of the Sun around the ecliptic and its dance with the Moon.

He is also talking about trines in 7.4.1 reinforcing the digbalas.

Fire Trines Dharma is shown by the trines from the 1st house – 1st, 5th and 9th – and they show prosperity of self, intelligence and dharma. (Dharma literally means duty. However, it has come to mean righteousness.) They are called “dharma trikonas” (trines of duty). The character of a person, his intelligence and his righteousness decide how one follows dharma – the first purpose of human existence.

Trines from the 2nd house are called “artha trikonas” (trines of money) and they show money related activities. The 2nd house shows wealth. The 6th house shows service. The 10th house shows career and activities in society. These three houses show money related activities and how one follows artha – the second purpose of human existence.

Trines from the 3rd house are called “kaama trikonas” (trines of desire) and they show one’s desires and how one gets them. The 3rd house shows one’s persistence. The 7th house shows relations and sex. The 11th house shows gains. These three houses show how one follows kaama – the third purpose of human existence.

Trines from the 4th house (4th – harmony, 8th – occult studies and spiritual awakening and 12th – moksha) are called “moksha trikonas” (trines of liberation) and they show how one follows moksha – the fourth purpose of human existence. Digbala of planets who attain full digbala in various of these trines shows the strength of different purushaarthas in one’s life. Dasas like “Trikona Dasa” which are based on trines show how one follows the four purushaarthas in life.
Planets in trines make each other prosper.

Source: https://www.pdfdrive.com/vedic-astrology-an-integrated-approach-narasimha-pvr-rao-e14438414.html

Best wishes for 2021!
Ouranos
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks ouranos and hello! and best wishes in 2021 for you!

i have narasimba raos book that you refer to.. i have read some of it.. the part on planets that are stronger in nighttime or daytime is another type of bala as i understand it.. bala means strength as i recall... there are many different ways of accessing strength... shadbala is about the whole spectrum of options for doing this.. i have a book on this too! written by s.k. duggal and neeraja taneja...i am just scanning it now and unable to find any reference to what you mention directly... maybe i need to go grab the rao book! there is tribhaaga bala which is based on hourly strength with the day and night broken up into 6 different parts - 3 for day and 3 for night..

unfortunately most of these indian astro texts to not give an index at the back of the book..

my friend gave me some insights into digbala... aside from direction, it seems that the element or tattava of the planets are integrated into this.... i am going to quote from an e mail i got last night from aj...

"Dig Bala or Directional Strength is intrinsically tied to the tattvas or the 5 elements and each element is associated with a direction, a time for each of the NavaGrahas (9 planets). For reference these are:
Sun, Mars and Ketu are tejas or fire.

Moon and Venus are jala or water
Mercury is prithvi or earth.

Jupiter is akash or ether/space.

Saturn and Rahu are vayu or air.



Directional strength is astrological symbolism at its most basic. The horoscope or chart reflects the diurnal motion of the earth in local space at a particular place and time that links us to the Cosmos.



Each Kendra or angle of a chart is then related to a time, direction and a tattva. The four material tattvas are tejas, prithvi, vayu and jala and each is associated with one of the Kendras or angles in a chart based upon which direction they are the strongest and this is called Dig Bala or directional influence.



The 1st house or rising point is sunrise (6am) and East/Prithvi & Akash, the descendant or 7th house sunset (6pm) and West/Vayu, the 4th house is midnight (12am) and North/Jala, the 10th house is noon (12pm) South/Tejo. Tejo can also be thought of as ‘light’ as well as heat etc.

Akash or ether is strong in the 1st house or east because it begets the other tattvas and prithvi is a combination of all of the other tattvas. All things contain and are contained by the primordial Akash or Space.

Note that the sets can be paired in opposites. Tejas (fire) and jala (water), 4th house/10th house.

Prithvi (earth) and vayu (air), 1st house/7th house."

and"...think of the polarities. Everything must balance yin/yang, earth/air, fire/water."

at which point i mentioned this -
"what are the mulatrikona signs for the individual planets

jupiter - sag, not pisces?

saturn - aquarius, not cap

mars - aries, not scorpio

venus??

mercury - virgo not gemini??

aj response
"Sun-Leo

Moon-Cancer

Mars-Aries

Mercury-Virgo

Jupiter-Sagittarius

Venus-Libra

Saturn-Aquarius

Rahu and Ketu have various MT designations, some think they have none, others have there opinions.

james response
"it seems this fits with the digbala concept, except venus is air - western hemisphere... why is it associated with 4th house - water area??

how does indian astrology account for mars rulering scorpio, jupiter pisces, venus taurus and mercury gemini??

it would also partly explain the friendship concepts of planets in indian astrology - sun, mars and jupiter - all fire.. venus and saturn - air.. air and fire seem to work well together though, so when i look at this with the element concept - i also rule into having to make different bridges to build! now is mercury is air - it fits with venus and saturn... moon is a lonely body here as only one in water... mercury ditto in earth..

maybe this is some help in getting to a closer understanding of digbala... if aj has a response, i will let you know... aj is a generous person and good teacher for me!
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought I'd mention that the locus classicus for the various types of strength in Indian astrology, the Śrīpatipaddhati (or, more properly, Jātakakarmapaddhati), is freely available on Archive:
https://archive.org/details/sripati-paddhati/page/mode/2up

It is an oldish translation by V. Subrahmanya Sastri, which means it is more reliable than many/most Indian books put out today -- and it's got an index! Smile
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks martin!

if anyone wants to look at what martins link says about digbala it starts on the bottom of page 33 to bottom of page 35... at the top of page 36 is the quote from ouranos post -
(from in the Narasimha Rao book which is where rao got it) -"Moon, Mars and Saturn are strong in the night time. Sun, Jupiter and Venus are strong in the daytime. Mercury is always strong."

if you are using the pdf page numbers it is 48-50...

again - it says it in a book, but the rationale for it, is not laid out... oh well...

i think this was part of my motivation for writing my post on ''what if any are the connections between hellenistic astrology and indian astrology?" or whatever the title of that thread was! i feel like i am in the church of indian astrology and have to accept everything on faith!!!
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even in the Greek tradition, the authors who present rationales for some of the doctrines (1) typically belong to later periods than the doctrines they are explicating, and (2) do not always agree with one another. So yes, it is a bit like religion, but that's not a situation unique to India.

Speaking as a historian, I think the Indian 'time strength' (kālabala) that you allude to is a distorted echo of the sect doctrine. (As your friend AJ pointed out, the original grouping is actually present in the Yavanajātaka.) This is not an uncommon occurrence. Outside India, one example would be Sahl ibn Bishr, who in his introduction to astrology manages to conflate three different groupings of the planets (based on gender, sect, and inferior/superior status). This leads to the astronomically impossible idea of Mars making a heliacal rising in the west, but the text was still passed down and eventually translated both into Latin and (in abbreviated form) Sanskrit.

Assuming that there was a rationale to begin with, it would thus seem useful first to establish the original (or at least earliest preserved) form of the ideas under investigation -- though I suppose rationales invented to defend misunderstandings may sometimes be illuminating in their own way as well.
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Ouranos



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Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Martin for the link and useful comments. Thank you also James for the complement of information.
Sometimes I wonder if the astrology practiced today is not like a puzzle of Astrocartography. We get a zest of emotion under the line of Western astrology and a pinch of prajna with the line of Indian astrology. We just need to adjust our lenses.
Digbala as I understand it is just another way to assess the strength or debility of a planet and we all have in our charts planets in rulership in one system and debilitated in the other one. Choosing between a Mars in Taurus or Aries! Urgh!... My personal appreciation of it and not scientific at all, I would say Sidereal 1 Tropical 0 (or at least what we have imported today from Hellenistic and tagged Tropical). Which is to say that Hellenistic is very conceivable with the lens of Indian astrology!
I had this wonderful spiritual experience in India a long time ago where I became 'conscious' or 'awaken' during my sleep. And at that point, day and night were the same continuous life. To rephrase it, there were no more debilities and dignities, simply 'consciousness'. Which is another way to merge the opposing forces within ourselves!

Blessings,
Ouranos
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for your additional insights martin....i think of mistakes as the mother of invention! frank zappa called his band the mothers of invention which is not exactly the same thing! but sometimes one thing leads to the next and you are right... none of this has anything to do with any particular system as they are all privy to it...thanks for the examples... mars making a heliacal rising in the west - i would like to see that!

ouranos - thanks for your personal story from india! i like what you got from all of that too..that sounds like the universal light that you tapped into... if you can give me the phone number for that, i would be most appreciative!

i am foolish enough to think that both tropical and sidereal have merit... i see them as 2 different systems of reference... the view i get looking west is different then the one i get looking east... maybe that is a poor analogy, but it is like this to me... they are complete unto themselves... i read recently where robert zoeller said much the same thing... they both work...

it is indeed interesting how a planet in one zodiac looks different in the other one... mars in aries can become mars in pisces, or venus in scorpio can become venus in libra.. at the same time venus in libra can become venus in virgo too and etc. etc... it forces one to think more deeply on all of this.. i think that is ultimately a good thing...
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Stefan



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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I am too inclined to believe that both sidereal and tropical have merit.
The dignities of the sidereal zodiac with the exaltation and debilitations is very powerful imo.

But the psychological descriptions of the tropical statements are often quite spot on. I am certainly seeing a lot of my tropical gemini moon in terms of having multiple task going on. Always 10 books going on at the same time loving the feeling of taking in information as a way of feeling good and secure.

But same moon is exalted in sidereal taurus in 10th house dominating the chart in that way. Which fits soo well.

Recent example blew my mind just the other day of the strength of Sidereal exaltations, in the swedish famous painter of nature motives. Bruno Liljefors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_Liljefors (No TOB).

as a worldclass landscape and nature painter, the venus position is interesting, as his venus is super high declination OOB. And in strength in the divisional charts navamsha, drekkana.

BUT, the interesting thing imo is his natal Mars. Sidereally exalted in his chart capricorn.
Mars is exalted in the normal chart
Exalted also in navamsha
exalted in drekkana chart (used also for strength).

And then I read this in wikipedia...

[img]A more unknown side of Bruno Liljefors is his career as a variety artist and elite gymnast. He was very athletic and fit with needles as his specialty. With his brothers Carl and Pontus, he formed the acrobatic group The Manzondi Brothers. Contemporary judges, including the power athlete Calle Sven, testified that their performance was very high class. Among other things, they performed at the Royal Opera and the Svea Hall. Liljefors himself said that he benefited greatly from his fine physique when he was out in nature and painting. Not least when he managed to climb a twenty meter high pine tree to study a osprey nest up close. [[/img]


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Stefan



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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*No TOB


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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose sidereal/tropical comparisons fall within the scope of this forum, but it might be more useful to compare charts with well-documented birth times, and to formulate some clear ideas beforehand regarding what sort of astrological indications one would expect to show up in, e.g., the chart of an artitst and/or an athlete. Surely an athlete (who is not also an artist) and an artist (who is not also an athlete) could be born on the same day and thus share most or all of their sign placements and aspects?

Personally I find the idea that we need not just one but two (or multiple?) zodiacs to get a full picture of a nativity both unattractive and implausible, not to mention daunting when it comes to actual predictive work. The more factors we throw into a chart, the more circumstances of the native's life can be justified, but only in retrospect.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
Personally I find the idea that we need not just one but two (or multiple?) zodiacs to get a full picture of a nativity both unattractive and implausible, not to mention daunting when it comes to actual predictive work.

The idea that we need two zodiacs for a full picture of a nativity is unnecessary because very few astrologers are seeing the reality of what we have come to see as the traits of the twelve signs. There are not two sets of sign influences linked to one ecliptic, but only one set of influences.

This means that (for example) sidereal Libra is like tropical Scorpio because they are located in the same degrees of the ecliptic. The western Jyotish astrolgoers have taken us far off track in copying tropical traits to sidereal signs of the same name. Especially the four so-called sign elements are out of whack, totally inaccurate in the sidereal zodiac. (I have been singing this song since the 1980s and especially the 1990s when American astrologers re-named India's astrology as 'Vedic.')

Considering the dignities, exhalations and fall of planets in both zodiacs as valid is totally illogical, but few astrologers seem to have thought this contradiction through.

Martin, do you still have the zodiac paper I sent you last year? You were no doubt working on your books, and likely didn't have time to read the paper.

Stefan, is is possible to shrink your graphic so there isn't so much screen distortion?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I still have your paper, Therese (thanks for reminding me of it). I did read it, but as I recall it dealt largely with the issue of elements connected with the triplicities, which is something I never consider myself. (I do occasionally consider the symbolism inherent in the sign images, according to which both Aquarius and Pisces, for instance, are connected with water. This is also something that you occasionally see Hellenistic authors do. But I only use it in a very concrete sense, e.g., relating a flooding accident to watery signs.)

I do see your point about there not being two ecliptics, but I am perhaps less inclined to believe that the standard modern descriptions of the tropical signs (say, from the second half of the 19th century onwards) were based predominantly on observation. In any case, my approach revolves largely around rulerships (primarily of signs and terms), so when I look at a chart with a Libra/Scorpio Asc, I am more interested in what Venus or Mars is doing in the chart than in whether the native's personality seems more 'airy' or 'watery'. And I do find traditional rulerships to work very much better in a sidereal zodiac.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I still have your paper, Therese (thanks for reminding me of it). I did read it, but as I recall it dealt largely with the issue of elements connected with the triplicities, which is something I never consider myself...

...In any case, my approach revolves largely around rulerships (primarily of signs and terms), so when I look at a chart with a Libra/Scorpio Asc, I am more interested in what Venus or Mars is doing in the chart than in whether the native's personality seems more 'airy' or 'watery'. And I do find traditional rulerships to work very much better in a sidereal zodiac.

The entire point of my paper was to show that the sidereal triplicities are very much related to ruling and exalted planets plus Hellenistic triplicity lords rather than to the so-called elements used in the tropical zodiac. Orientation and type reference Aristotle; planetary traits reference Ben Dykes' translations, both discussed in the paper. Here is a triplicity example:

The HOT Sidereal Trigon Signs are Aries, Leo, Sagittarius.
(Ecliptic area of Tropical Earth signs)
Hot is composed of:
Active orientation: motivation and creative energy drawn from within (the psychological
mainframe). Sidereal Active people are self-contained and self-motivated. They depend on their
own judgement and inner strength, and may be seen as “introverted” because they generally don’t
seek advice or support from others.
Masculine type: mental orientation, use of the mind (non-emotional)

Triplicity lords which influence these three signs:
Sun by day: light, splendor, reason and intellect, loftiness of mind, strength, victory, fame,
greatness, supremacy of first place, power, forcefulness, appetite for a kingdom and assets
Jupiter by night: regal, powerful, generous, happy, humorous, firm, wisdom and intellect, sharpness of mind, bold, esteem from others, respect and a kingdom, good fortune, praiseworthy, attainment and victory

Example chart:
William Harrah (Sun, Mercury in Leo, Moon in Sagittarius) Gambling czar who founded Harrah’s casinos. Harrah always aimed for the biggest and best, but in person is a shy and soft spoken perfectionist. (Note these are traits given to tropical Virgo, but align with the character of the Hot sidereal trigon.)

The ancient Greeks equated heat and warmth with life and emotions such as joy and relief.
Aristotle considered Hot to be male and superior, and associated these with courage and intelligence. (Lloyd 1964: 103). From the astrological point of view, this trigon of signs is the most “masculine” (mental orientation, self-determined, use of will power) of the four.

These signs have no domicile or trigon rulership or exalted planets of feminine (Venus, Moon) or even neutral (Saturn, Mercury) polarity. These three signs are wholly signs of the Sun and Jupiter. For reasons described below, Mars whose domicile is Aries was not associated with this trigon of Hot signs in Hellenistic astrology.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if I misremembered your argument, Therese. I don't think elements were historically tied up with the tropical zodiac (Valens, who used a zodiac offset from the equinox, mentions them while Ptolemy doesn't), but I agree that triplicity rulers were much more important than elements in premodern and early modern astrology. They were used in the western tropical tradition too, though, which illustrates the problems with trying to reconcile the two zodiacs: one might argue that the qualities that modern tropicalists ascribe to Taurus are largely the qualities of (sidereal) Aries, but does that part of the ecliptic belong to the triplicity of the Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn or to that of the Moon, Venus, and Mars? Which rulers should one focus on in predictive work?

Personally, I don't feel irreconcilability is necessarily a problem. On the contrary, seeking out those cases where the differences between the two systems are at their greatest can be very helpful in deciding which one gives the consistently most reliable results.
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