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USA Election 2020: KP and Return Chart Choices
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
... so basically you are saying the solar return chart is more important then the natal chart for the year in question... do i have that correct?? the fact is the angles in the solar return chart are important, but they can be seen on either biwheel spread...

Think of it this way: The natal chart as such is stagnant, always the same. But the solar return is dynamic. Each year the life focus is different. So the solar return chart is the framework for the year. The Fagan school of sidereal astrologers discovered the importance of angles in the solar return chart. If we have only the natal chart with the SR planets around the chart, we can’t see the SR angles which highlight important natal areas of the chart. (Or planets conjunct other SR house cusps or planets in SR houses.)

Quote:
In fact, i would be curious for you to articulate the order of importance for all of it if you feel so inclined!!

This is kind of a general question as each chart is unique and different, but first I note any planet in partile cojunction to the ascendant and house cusps, and then partile or very close planetary aspects either in the SR chart or between the SR and natal chart. As to how these planets act, that’s what I’m testing with KP techniques.

Quote:
to add to this discussion, the topic which have come up in the traditional astro literature of the importance of the profection lord and where it is placed is mirrored in dr. charaks work on solar returns where he puts great importance on the location of the muntha - profection lord - in the solar return chart... now, this is missing in all of our charts!!

I am still a novice in using profections, so really can’t offer any ‘words of wisdom’ on that topic. But Martin Gansten’s new Annual Predictive Techniques is a great source of profection principles and examples. I’m studying that book now. Also there’s a good chapter on profections from Lee Lehman’s Classical Astrology for Modern Living (1996). These sources are easier to study and digest than the original sources on Revolutions translated by Ben Dykes. And it looks like I have to review Dr. Charak's books. Thanks for the reminder. You see, I first have to lay a good foundation in my mind about what others have said before experimenting with a technique. Knowledge is built on the shoulders of those who came before.

Quote:
Regarding your comments below - it is interesting how you are using houses here... essentially the 10th house cusp of taurus doesn't apply to the sun, rahu and uranus according to what you are saying below...

It’s that Trump’s natal stellium of Uranus/Rahu/Sun is in the 11th equal house rather than the 10th. As the 11th has to do with profit and gain, Trump has spent his life as a businessman specializing in real estate (Taurus?). He only entered politics for the last election. So it’s not about Taurus, but about the house placement of planets in the natal chart. If sign dispositors are used, these planets are in Taurus, so would be disposited by Venus.

But houses in solar return charts: This is a major area needing research. In his new book, Martin Gansten has some very interesting examples of planets in partile conjunction to Alcabitius house cusps. So in my opinion the entire question of houses and house cusps is wide open. I use the Indian equal house system because it highlights the ascendant degree around the chart. Whole sign houses simply don't apply for the placement of planets in houses in my experience. But I no longer have time or energy to research house systems.

Ouranos wrote:
Quote:
I would like to add that Neptune influence at an old age oftentimes points to an obligatory passage with health or mental facilities. He did catch Covid but I would suggest him to have a full medical checkup during this Neptunian period.

Good luck in convincing Trump to do something he may not want to do! That’s something I hadn’t considered: Neptune influence having to do with a passage to old age. Something to watch for.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese!

essentially you are not using whole sign houses, but equal houses where the degree is the center of the house... okay.. got it...

regarding the ennead charts.. how would you explain the difference between these charts and a transit chart to the natal? to me, i don't see much difference, other then the obvious emphasis on the 9th harmonic charts importance from a transiting point of view, especially in relation to the sun, as they are 9th harmonics off the and not any other point in the chart.. not to underestimate the importance of the sun and it is the basis for solar return charts too, but i wonder how this has any more value then looking at transits to the natal...

and as we can note, neptune by transit seems to strongly affect both biden and harris... biden has the planet transit his nadir, while harris has the planet opposite her natal venus.... aside from the health angle with ouranos mentions, scandal is also a possibility with strong neptune aspects to the natal chart.. probably it will be neither of these, but i thought i would mention this...

as for the way you are emphasizing the solar return - thanks for sharing... i have never doubted the importance of angles in either the natal or the solar return chart and i do think it is important to consider what house the angle of the solar return chart lands in the natal chart too... of course the profection lord is important in the older astrologers work and i look forward to reading martin ganstens book when it arrives... i am not much of a fan of all the various house systems, but to each their own... i am mostly sticking to whole sign house emphasis which is how i understand the way they are practicing in good measure in india at present... this i get from all the indian astro books i am reading... this kp approach seems like a hybrid trying to bridge a few different approaches and giving off the vibe it is somehow new.. well - that is what it seems like to me!

thanks for sharing!
james
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Ouranos



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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Therese and James for sharing your experience with Indian astrology and bringing light to the various concepts.
Martin Gansten's book brought me the concept of Terms which definitely needs to be investigated and incorporated in his footstep.
Right now, I am comfortable enough with Signs meaning Houses with intermediate Houses (if used) potentially marking a 'peak' in the Sign/House itself. As Robert Hand said "Actually, to understand this properly, one has to know that it is not that the signs were used as houses so much as there were no houses at all, merely the signs of the zodiac used as we would use houses,... Whole Sign Houses describes this oldest way of dealing with houses, and shows how effective it can be in modern astrology, so effective in fact that the author (as well as many other students of traditional astrology) has completely given up on modern house systems not just for historical reasons but, even more importantly, because whole sign houses simply work better."

My own approach with Profections was to look at the Ruler of the Year in the Solar Return chart and Natal chart, see what it does and consider the Ruler of the SR ASC as an additional influence along with the Profected House being reached. And looking at Angular planets for weighing in the importance of the diagnostic.

Where I think we can learn from Indian Astrology are the Enneads you worked on Therese or any sub-rulers divisions of the year because I believe it does exist. How many times, as astrologers, have we seen transits in our chart that did not produce anything at all. Maybe because it was not a ripened fruit. Or as the physiologist Xavier Bichat said (free translation): "Life is the sum of functions resisting to death." When a transit, profection or progression is transforming us, we die to something to learn something new.

Thank you,
Ouranos
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
Regarding the ennead charts.. how would you explain the difference between these charts and a transit chart to the natal?

This question surprised me. What is the difference between any cyclic chart (solar return, lunar return, etc.) and a simple transit chart? Instead of calculating the lunar return, why not just pick any day and note transits to the Moon? It's the mathematical precision of the chart based on a precise harmonic return to a point calculated from a natal point. In the case of the solar return, enned or monthly chart, this point is the radix Sun.

The angles, houses and planetary degrees and relationships of any return chart are only precise at the instant of the return, not at any other time of the month, year or whatever time period you want to look at.

Quote:
and as we can note, neptune by transit seems to strongly affect both biden and harris... biden has the planet transit his nadir, while harris has the planet opposite her natal venus.... aside from the health angle with ouranos mentions, scandal is also a possibility with strong neptune aspects to the natal chart.. probably it will be neither of these, but i thought i would mention this...

We need some kind of chart structure to determine how planets manifest. This is why we have return charts, profections and directions. Just saying there is strong Neptune aspect doesn't tell us much at all. (Being quite tired when I wrote notes on the ennead charts above, I've belatedly realized that Biden's inaugural ennead Neptune at the MC is in partile relationship to the nodes. So I have to comment on that in another post.)

Quote:
I am mostly sticking to whole sign house emphasis which is how i understand the way they are practicing in good measure in india at present... this i get from all the indian astro books i am reading...

It's the fault of the American "Vedic" group that there is so much emphasis on whole sign houses instead of the traditional Indian equal house system I use or SriPati houses. If you read the older Indian books prior to the 1990s, you see these systems commonly used. Now even Indian authors are copying the "American Vedic" way of emphasizing whole sign houses. Check the publication dates of the books you are reading.

Quote:
this kp approach seems like a hybrid trying to bridge a few different approaches and giving off the vibe it is somehow new.. well - that is what it seems like to me

The KP system of nakshatra lords and subs (and sub subs) is entirely new as its based on nakshatra divisions rather than the 12 zodiac signs. Thus, it's a totally Indian system. But in practice astrologers often combine KP with Parashara principles which link back to Hellenistic and Perso-Arabic techniques and principles. KP alone simply looks at the nakshatra and sub positions of planets while paying no attention to planetary aspects, dignities and so forth.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Quote:
Martin Gansten's book brought me the concept of Terms which definitely needs to be investigated and incorporated in his footstep.

The use of terms in Martin's book is one of the most exciting parts of the book. There is no other book that delineates terms in the way he does. I'm carefully studying his examples.

Quote:
My own approach with Profections was to look at the Ruler of the Year in the Solar Return chart and Natal chart, see what it does and consider the Ruler of the SR ASC as an additional influence along with the Profected House being reached. And looking at Angular planets for weighing in the importance of the diagnostic.

Are you always using the sidereal zodiac?

Quote:
Where I think we can learn from Indian Astrology are the Enneads you worked on...

The Enneads are a discovery of the western Fagan school of astrology. They aren't used in India, but Tajika does use the monthly charts which work on the same principle.

I appreciate your interest in these discussions, Ouranos. Thank you. Due to time constraints and tiredness I don't always reply in as much detail as I would like. But I read through everything in detail.
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are you always using the sidereal zodiac?

I still straddle between tropical and sidereal.
And I learned Profections in Tropical.
One of the difference I see the way people are learning it today is the strong importance put on the Profected ASC and its Ruler.
What I had learned was that the ASC and the Sun were always working in a 'synchrone' way.

Say for example, you have a Gemini with Cancer rising.
When the Profected ASC reaches Leo (2nd House), the natal Sun will be dropped to the Profected 11th House , creating a 2/11 relationship as well as having the Profected Sun moved to the natal 1st House, creating a 12/1 relationship. Thus you would say something like friends and associations (Natal Sun in the Profected 11th) will be a major theme this year regarding money matters and you will spend money on haircuts, manicures, facials and clothes.(Profected Sun in the 1st).
Transits and Primary Directions will further qualify the year.

Let's go back to our Gemini this time with Leo rising.
Again, the Profected ASC reaching the 2nd House this time in Virgo puts the natal Sun in the 10th House and the Profected Sun in the 12th.
You see. With both reaching the Profected 2nd House, we have 2 different scenarios. In the 2nd example, the person will spend on his career, maybe starting a business and caution with self-undoing or maybe not being a 100% legal about his status. And I have not looked at the Ruler of the Profected ASC yet.
Just to emphasize the synchrone relationship between the ASC and the Sun.

Of course, again the transits and the Primary Directions will help put the focus somewhere and tell us where it will most likely occur.

Cheers!
Ouranos
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We now know that this ennead period in President Trump's life has become extremely dismal. After the dramatic show of support from supporters, Trump is being impeached for his role in inciting the riot/insurrection against the Capital. Social media has cancelled his accounts so he no longer has the platform to connect with his followers. His approval rating has fallen to 29 percent. It seems utterly impossible now, five days before the inauguration date, that there can be any circumstances that would give Trump a second term.

Astrologically, isn't hindsight wonderful?! I think it was Ouranos or James who asked about the hierarchy of procedures when analyzing the ennead chart.



Transiting Rahu at the MC conjunct natal Uranus in a Mars mansion, with Mars in the ennead 8th house and radix Mars in the 12th appears to be the dominant influence as we approach the inaugural date. The strong radix placement of Mars on the ascendant seems not to apply.

Also the sudden reversals for which Uranus is noted (set off by transiting Rahu): changing from Trump's delight at the show of support from his followers to impeachment for inciting the very riot that pleased him.

Rahu's dispositor Venus at the nadir/IC (retirement) with Ketu is accurate. Venus is also the mansion dispositor of the ennead ascendant lord, Sun, and of the Leo ascendant itself. In the interests of research, Trump's profection lord for the year is Venus. Here transiting Venus is at the nadir in the obscure 4th house.

As interpreted by Fagan school astrologers, Neptune on the 7th cusp (the opponent) in 90 degree aspect to 10th house Rahu and natal Uranus is dissolving a political career. No KP astrology here!

For interest here is President Trump's ten day quarter-ennead (36th solar harmonic) which began on the 13th of January.



This chart has the appropriate partile conjunctions to angles I have seen often in ennead charts. Cancer 9 deg 52' rises in the chart with Mars at the zenith at 9 Aries in a 90 degree relationship with the ascendant lord Moon and Saturn at 9 degrees on the 7th cusp. Thus, the ascendant lord is locked in by the Mars-Saturn configuration on the chart angles. But Jupiter is above the 7th cusp, though in its fall in Capricorn, so the Moon is placed between Jupiter and Saturn.

It's interesting that Venus, the profection lord (in radix 12th) rises with Saturn, and transiting Venus is on the cusp of the 6th house. I don't know if these positions are an accident or if the placement of the profection lord in ennead and quarter-ennead charts is significant. If this chart is set for the U.S. Capital building, Saturn and Moon are above the horizon, but lose the partile conjunction to the 7th cusp.

Sun, the planet of kings is in the 6th house, and natal Sun is in the 12th.

I think there is enough here to suggest that enneads (and quarter enneads--36th harmonic) are significant enough to warrant more study and research. But there are questions about interpretation.
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Ouranos



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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Therese for your analysis,
In Trump's chart, it will be interesting to watch the Enneads when Neptune from the 8th squares his natal Moon(L12) in March and squares his natal Sun(L1) in May.
Health Health Health!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos, I think you might want to give some more thought to the zodiac question. Here is President Trump's current ennead in the Tropical zodiac. All the partile aspects are lost. Compare this chart to the sidereal ennead. The tropical ennead checks in a day earlier. We've lost the Moon-Neptune aspect among other things. The Neptune to Moon and Sun you mentioned for Trump concerning health also comes in later months sidereally. Recently I wrote a paper on the sidereal zodiac. If you PM an email address to me (not a Skyscript email), I'll send you a copy.


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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

thanks for your response to my various comments.... i understand what the ennead charts are - 9th harmonic charts to the degree of the birth sun for the year in question, so the emphasis is on a harmonic to a natal position - the sun in this example... it seems pretty fair out and as i have already said, why not also use transit data to the solar return chart, if you are going to use 9th harmonic charts to the solar return chart which are also transit data - but specific to 9th harmonics of the natal sun position... but i see the question baffled you.. i don't mean to baffle you.... but i do mean to emphasize the importance of transit data in all of this... ordinarily transit data is only applied to the natal chart... these enneads are like a frozen transit data chart with the additional feature it is also a sun 9th harmonic chart with emphasis on the sun only 9th harmonic... i see nothing wrong in trying them out.. thanks for your examples and answering my questions.. cheers james
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
These enneads are like a frozen transit data chart with the additional feature it is also a sun 9th harmonic chart with emphasis on the sun only 9th harmonic..

Yes, the enneads can be seen as frozen transit charts, but it's important that they are harmonic based. I think we'll be finding that harmonics are one of the important keys to astrology. Of course Linchi's research is harmonic based. But other types of harmonics are important as well. I was sold on harmonics a long time ago when John Addey was publishing his books.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Quote:
My own approach with Profections was to look at the Ruler of the Year in the Solar Return chart and Natal chart, see what it does and consider the Ruler of the SR ASC as an additional influence along with the Profected House being reached. And looking at Angular planets for weighing in the importance of the diagnostic.

It would be interesting to start a topic on profections with real life examples of these techniques.
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linchi



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Therese.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
But other types of harmonics are important as well.


Which harmonics do you think are important and why are they important ? Is there any research or examples about this ?
D-Charts in Vedic astrology are important, but you don't mean those, I think.

A sub-school of Hamburg school, meant the 12-24,48,96,192,...... Harmonics important. For those astrologers who have claimed, I have prepared here small comparison of Harmonic 192 with Harmonic 256 to show how to compare the different harmonics and find out which harmonics are more important and correct than others.

https://archive.org/details/comparison-of-harmonic-256-with-harmonic-192

I mean, you can compare different harmonics and find out which harmonics are the correct ones. Otherwise, the astrologers will not get out of it, as they did with the hause systems.
In my opinion, the one that gives the most accurate results is the right harmonics. It can be determined without speculations.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linchi wrote:
Quote:
Which harmonics do you think are important and why are they important ? Is there any research or examples about this ?
D-Charts in Vedic astrology are important, but you don't mean those, I think.

I was thinking of the D-Charts in Indian astrology as one use of harmonics. This is similar to the 9th and 36th harmonic charts based on the Sun that I've been recently studying.

John Addey came to various conclusions in his study of harmonics, but I haven't reviewd them in many years. However Geoffrey Dean has said (either in Tests of Astrology or personal correspondence) that research doesn't validate his conclusions.

Linchi, the way you use harmonics is giving us very specific signatures for diseases, for example. But we need a more general use of harmonics in order to read the natal or progressed chart in some detail about life conditions. This is the basis of India's varga (harmonic) charts. Could your use of harmonics have predicted the current conditions in President Trump's life? At least with the transit of Rahu on natal Uranus on the MC degree (Trump's current ennead) we could suggest predictions based on the meaning of Uranus and Rahu.

This means giving quotes from various sources as to the characteristics of Rahu and Uranus. Always it's testing timing and accepted characteristics. Do events match what is recorded about the nature of planets?
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linchi



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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Linchi, the way you use harmonics is giving us very specific signatures for diseases, for example.


Not only that. Besides most important diseases I have done research on marriage, divorce, death of the person and relatives. These are, I think, the most important life events. I have never been interested in politics.
It should also be taken into account that my system is only 5 years old and is developed only by me, not like the other astrological schools that have been practiced and researched for many centuries by many astrologers.
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