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Sudarshana Chakra Dasa and parallels with profections
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to correct what I said here:
Quote:
Profections were clear-cut, progress one sign each year by rotating the chart. But as Ben Dykes points out, by the Arabic era the progressed point used was the precise degree rather than sign.

Re-reading Ben Dykes, this isn't exactly what he said. I'll quote him exactly to be sure it's clear:

Quote:
"For it seems that the older, Hellenistic approach to profections used whole sign houses. But by the Arabic period, astrologers such as Umar al-Tabari and Abu Ma'shar advocated equal houses: thus, instead of moving sign-to-sign, they moved in 30 degree increments."

Benjamin N. Dykes, PhD, Persian Nativities III: On Solar Revolutions, Cazimi Press, 2010, p. 18.

Profections were used to read the affairs of houses. So what Ben is saying here is that each house of 30 degrees was counted from the ascendant degree, so that a house could have planets in two different signs. But Ben didn't say that degrees or houses were progressed or re-calculated, only that equal houses were used rather than whole sign houses. But I'm sure when we see the larger more complete book, there will be more details and examples on profections to clear up any confusion.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
these 2 events, which are not so much events, as patterns that developed thru one specific trigger point shaped his desire to marry at at 16..
[bold is mine]

Hi James: Coming into the Labor Day weekend here and will be pretty busy. I would ordinarily give Hamish's childhood trends a stab, but for the lack of hard events, I will pass. It would be better to have actual solid events to key to.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

thanks for the reference on ben dykes quotes on the use of profections.. i find all that confusing! for me - the sign on the ascendant is the first house.. i don't think other planets in the 2nd sign from it are in the first - thus - whole sign houses is what i must be thinking... equal houses are - just that - all equal 30 degrees based off the sign... anyway - it is confusing to me what is being said here... maybe it is best to wait for some reference that is more clear then that!... thanks..

aj

children typically don't remember dates, so it is understandable hamish doesn't have a concrete date to give us here... however, the year marking when he was 7 and 11 years old is marked by the 8th and 12th house profections - 8th house ruled by moon and 12th house ruled by mars... as it happens moon and mars are in a 7 degree conjunction which incidentally translates as the 7th year using the solar arc direction method.... so, something seems to be captured in the conjunction of moon/mars here as they are the rulers of the profection years under consideration and are also captured in the solar arc direction of mars to moon...

11th year solar arc has moon sa to venus too fwiw... so, moon is involved in both the 7th and 11th year events from a more general view in regards to the solar arc data.. moon rules hamish's 8th house.. also fwiw - hamish is looking into getting birth data from the hospital he was born at which might help additionally if it is more accurate then the 1130am time we presently have...

if you or anyone else wants to take a stab at what these events or experiences might be based off what little i have highlighted here in the above paragraph - feel free... otherwise, i will reveal all in the upcoming days... thanks..
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
therese,

thanks for the reference on ben dykes quotes on the use of profections.. i find all that confusing! for me - the sign on the ascendant is the first house.. i don't think other planets in the 2nd sign from it are in the first - thus - whole sign houses is what i must be thinking... equal houses are - just that - all equal 30 degrees based off the sign... anyway - it is confusing to me what is being said here... maybe it is best to wait for some reference that is more clear then that!... thanks..

aj

children typically don't remember dates, so it is understandable hamish doesn't have a concrete date to give us here... however, the year marking when he was 7 and 11 years old is marked by the 8th and 12th house profections - 8th house ruled by moon and 12th house ruled by mars... as it happens moon and mars are in a 7 degree conjunction which incidentally translates as the 7th year using the solar arc direction method.... so, something seems to be captured in the conjunction of moon/mars here as they are the rulers of the profection years under consideration and are also captured in the solar arc direction of mars to moon...

11th year solar arc has moon sa to venus too fwiw... so, moon is involved in both the 7th and 11th year events from a more general view in regards to the solar arc data.. moon rules hamish's 8th house.. also fwiw - hamish is looking into getting birth data from the hospital he was born at which might help additionally if it is more accurate then the 1130am time we presently have...

if you or anyone else wants to take a stab at what these events or experiences might be based off what little i have highlighted here in the above paragraph - feel free... otherwise, i will reveal all in the upcoming days... thanks..

I understand that children don't remember dates and I wasn't particularly meaning that. I thought the initial challenge was to sleuth astrologically what those pivotal events might have been. My point is that you state "not so much events, as patterns" and I leave that to those that take a more psychological approach to their astrology to deal with "patterns". If there were actual physical events out of his control it would feel challenging to take the trouble to nail them down astrologically, it would be a fun exercise then. Anyone can speculate on the emotional preteen periods in a life with or without astrology.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi aj,

thanks for articulating all that and sorry for any confusion here.. these are actual physical events that happened.... these events are better described as patterns that developed a particular dynamic in hamishs life though... but yes - real physical events are what these 'events' are... thanks..

labour day weekend! enjoy it folks...

a little piano music from new orleans from the past...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XxCEq22tOc
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having had some time to spend with the new Abu Ma'shar translation by Ben Dykes:

Regarding profections, from reading Abu Ma’shar as well as Lee Lehman, these are definite rotations of the natal chart, not new computations. In his glossary, Ben Dykes gives this translation of the Arabic profection:
Quote:

(“advancement, setting out”)...in which some part of a chart (usually the ascendant) is advanced by an entire sign or in 30 degree increments for each year of life.

Benjamin N. Dykes, PhD, Persian Nativites IV: Abu Ma’shar On The Revolutions of the Years Of Nativities, Cazimi Press, 2019, p. 696.

Abu Ma’shar also compares the solar return chart and profections to the natal chart, and combines all of these together. This is why the modern bi or tri-wheels in astrological software are so helpful in seeing the relationships among charts. With comparison techniques the circular chart makes these comparisons easy to see and understand.

I have some interesting observations about Arabic solar returns and the Indian Varshaphal, but they belong on the SR/Ennead/Decan topic where I'll post a little later. We're starting to see some western/eastern sidereal overlap of concepts which seems to make a division between the two (forum wise) seem artificial.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
James wrote: “after his 7th birthday, in the following year 1961 - something of real significance took place.. after his 11th birthday, in the year 1965 - something of real significance also took place.... these 2 events, which are not so much events, as patterns that developed thru one specific trigger point shaped his desire to marry at at 16.. unfortunately he does not have specific dates for these events, but knows they happened when he was 7 and 11 without knowing the specific dates involved…”

Due to time constraints and the previous post being dumped so I’m just noting some of the more prominent astro. so please forgive the brevity… but it’s easy enough to see for yourself by studying the chart for even a few minutes.
Hamish’s chart shows clear signs of trouble to the father. Fallen Sun in Libra associated with exalted Saturn. Note that their dispositer is Venus fallen in natal and navamsa.
The Moon is well placed and exalted in navamsa but afflicted by Saturn in D12.
Both events occurred in the main period of Mars and had to do with Hamish’s parents. Hamish’s father died or became very sick along with Hamish’s mother at separate times during the Mars main period. Indications are stronger for both passing away.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, it might be moon in libra sidereal, but it is moon in scorpio tropical and for some reason i always notice this difference.. i am spilling some of the beans on hamish here...

hamish was sexually abused by his oldest sister when he was 7.. as i mentioned in the first few posts - hamish came from what i would call an upper middle class family background, but one where the parents were both working and the older siblings were responsible for the younger ones.. in the case here, a lot of craziness ensued, which involved all the siblings.. hamish was too young to know what was happening to him.. he was also given a guitar when he was 7 which led to a lifelong involvement and love of music - both listening and playing and for performing on stage... that is the quick overview on what happened when he was 7...

he was quite young, but i imagine these experiences shaped his involvement in heroin by the time he was age 11... he was the youngest of a group of friends, some who died young - who got involved in smack.... i am going to hold off on giving you more details, but for the moment aj, it looks like you and i are the ones most focused on this thread... perhaps therese and stefan will feel like getting more involved and offering some astro insights into all this...

i was trying to figure out how one gets sexual abuse off the chart at age 7... as i mentioned - mars ruler of the 12th directed to moon - ruler of the 8th - might do it... there is mutual reception between mercury and mars in hamishs chart... mercury a general indicator for siblings, oversees venus in virgo as well... while some say the 8th house isn't connected to sexuality, i am not so sure about that... perhaps it is better to think of the 6, 8 and 12th houses as very challenging in some respects.. the fact the profection lords for age 7 and 11 are moon and mars - ruling the 8th and 12th houses is a coincidence or not here...

as you can probably now see, the motive for marriage at such a young age was precipitated by a very challenging set up in hamishs childhood... can that be seen from the chart? early childhood up to 4 is said to be overseen by the moon... after age 4, i can't remember... the 4th house is also said to be connected to early family life.... any other astro thoughts that might help shed more light on hamishs past astrologically? thanks..

sorry for the delay in replying to you aj.. i was out playing music in a different city today and got back and have been busy...
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just today I had time to set up the solar returns for Hamish’ two years you mentioned, James, age 7 and 11, and was debating if I should post the solar returns. I am generally not good with predictions, but I considered something sexual as 8th house Ketu is on the 10th angle of the solar return. The cluster of planets in the 11th house is on the ascendant. 11th house is older siblings.

So we get natal Saturn in 11th on the SR ascendant in square to the nodes, Ketu being in natal 8th, very close to Uranus. Transiting Jupiter is on the third cusp in the natal ascendant degree in Ketu’s star. This can represent the double events for the year: Abuse (Ketu in 8th) and being introduced to music via a guitar, leading to a lifelong love of music (Third house has to do with use of the hands and arms, including music and sports). Here is Hamish’s solar return for age 7: (More comments below.)



Notice transiting Uranus on natal Pluto in Ketu's star, again pointing to natal Ketu in the 8th. The SR ascendant and Saturn and Sun are all in Rahu's star. In the SR natal Rahu is in the 4th, something happening in the home. Rahu is in the Sun's star which goes back to the 11th natal house again. And where is natal Rahu?! On the natal second cusp of family. So we get repeated motion around the chart: 2nd, 8th, 11th in this particular solar return chart.

I knew the nodes were important for this SR year as they are angular, but hadn't quite worked out their meaning. Now, of course it's clear looking at the solar return. (It so happens that the profected ascendant for the year is in natal 8th with Ketu in 8th.) And natal Ketu is in Saturn's star, Saturn in the 11th.

Yes, K.S. Krishnamurti had it nailed when he discovered the importance of star lords for the interpretation of planets, a purely Indian technique!! My first reading of Krishnamurti's books was on the plane returning from India in 1986. I became an immediate convert!! I remember having the feeling that I was led to those books when I was in Bangalore. Not a live guru, but sometimes books make good gurus. Yogananda has said that books have the vibrations of their authors, and we can tune into those vibrations, kind of like entering the mind of the author.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now to look at Hamish's solar return for age 11 when he was introduced to heroin:



In The Key of Life Prash Trivedi writes that Rahu relates to all plants that have intoxicating effects on human beings. (page 42) Like his age 7 chart, this chart has the 11th house cluster of planets in Libra on the ascendant in Rahu's star. Debilitated Sun in Rahu's star is directly on the ascendant. Natal Rahu is on the 2nd cusp of the mouth which can consume poisonous substances. Natal Rahu is angular in this chart, but not so close to the 4th cusp. Transiting Rahu is just coming to natal Jupiter in the 7th, 8th house (cusp as center of house) in the SR.

Both transiting Rahu and natal Jupiter are in the star of Mars, transiting Mars at the MC on natal Pluto in Ketu's star. It seems that Rahu and perhaps Ketu are the culprits for Hamish's use of heroin, but I would probably not have guessed this from this solar return chart. I knew that there was emphasis on Rahu, but wouldn't have known exactly what that meant.

This year the profection was in the natal 12th house which is in the 2nd house (mouth, nose and intake of food) of the solar return.

But I'm not understanding how these different events in Hamish's life relate much to getting married at age 16.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AJ



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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hamish was sexually abused by his oldest sister when he was 7..
involvement in heroin by the time he was age 11... he was the youngest of a group of friends, some who died young - who got involved in smack....

I missed both predictions... Looked like obvious parent's death to me. At least I tried. No hindsight safety net on this one. Back to watching Shaun the Sheep on Netflix for me.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding predictions, I remember something a while ago that Robert Hand said. I think it might have been in an article on Astrodienst. As I remember the article or post was titled "Why Predictions Fail." Rob Hand pointed out that for each factor in the horoscope (planets, signs, houses, aspects, etc.) there are so many choices or ramifications that all astrologers can do is guess which specific factor is in effect.

We know this is true because of the almost universal prediction in America that Hillary Clinton would win the last U.S. election. Actually she won the popular vote, but that didn't help. As far as I know, no astrologer predicted the contradiction in the election, popular vote vs. electoral vote. Some astrologers in other countries and a few U.S. astologers did accurately predict the outcome of the election because they didn't have the mindset of American astrologers: "No way could Donald Trump ever be president." His wife knew better. She was quoted as saying to him, "Be sure you want to be president because if you run, you will win."
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AJ



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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Rob Hand pointed out that for each factor in the horoscope (planets, signs, houses, aspects, etc.) there are so many choices or ramifications that all astrologers can do is guess which specific factor is in effect.

[Thought this previously posted but I am having some problems with that here lately. Not the first post to disappear. I might try another browser for a while and see if that helps.]
Thanks for pointing that out Therese. Certainly, it is desparingly common with astrologers and surely part of Shiva's curse as well Wink
James, you mentioned some time ago that Hamish was inquiring about his TOB from the hospital. Any word on that?
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have been getting several messages, "This post does not exist." when I try to link from my email to Skyscript. I've asked for notices of new messages from Skyscript to go into my email as reminders.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
I was trying to figure out how one gets sexual abuse off the chart at age 7... as i mentioned - mars ruler of the 12th directed to moon - ruler of the 8th - might do it... there is mutual reception between mercury and mars in hamishs chart... mercury a general indicator for siblings, oversees venus in virgo as well... while some say the 8th house isn't connected to sexuality, i am not so sure about that...

With so much emphasis on psychology in our contemporary times, we tend to forget one of the important foundations of houses: each house represents a part of the human body. So the 8th house is the genital area which is reflected in the glyph for Scorpio. Hamish has Ketu on the 8th cusp which receives the full strength aspect from Saturn in Libra in the 11th (older siblings). And this is exactly the configuration that comes to the angles in Hamish's age 7 solar return chart, Saturn being four degrees above the SR ascendant. And the profection for that year was the 8th house as we both mentioned, so this configuration is highlighted for the year.

I've found it safest for prediction to first consider the part of the body a house represents. In my case a sadly debilitated Saturn is lord of the 2nd house of face, throat, mouth, teeth. As a child I had constant throat infections until my tonsils were removed. But that left a very sensitive and easily irritated throat. Fifteen minutes into a conversation and my voice will begin to falter. There is no strength in my voice, so I am in particular awe of opera singers!! Also I've had to have a great of dental work done through the years. (Although this is fairly common for many people.)

This same debilitated Saturn is also lord of the 3rd house of younger siblings and the arts (hands and arms). Saturn is conjunct Jupiter in the 5th house. I have six younger siblings and in my younger days was an artist and taught art to children in the public schools. Saturn is in Venus' star (arts rather than sports) which is in the 10th house of career. Saturn receives some cancellation of debilitation because it's exalted in Libra, and Libra's lord Venus is angular in the 10th.

I just think it's really difficult to be specific about how planets in the birth chart manifest without knowing the background and details of a person's life.
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