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Sudarshana Chakra Dasa and parallels with profections
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1759
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
thanks as well for the mention of bens latest translation... i wonder how much this differs from his other work?

Quite a bit. Book 3 is 227 pages. Book 4 is said to be around 700.

Quote:
It seems like ben is churning out a lot of translations on the same books, abet he has learned arabic and doing it more directly now, as opposed to via latin... it is a question to ask him.. maybe i will do that...

There was a recent podcast with Chris Brennan where Ben talked about this book. He said that the Latin which was translated from the Arabic was only partial and confusing in places. He said the Arabic was much more clear and detailed. Yes, so Ben had to learn Arabic. Someone said recently that Ben churned out books faster than they could be read! Certainly faster than they can be studied and absorbed. Ben's output has been spectacular, almost too many translations to count, like he's a magical person. Maybe he is as he has books on western magical practices. He may be a practicing magician.

James I belatedly realized something about the marriage dates you have been giving for Hamish. You said three marriages which would indicate three wives, but you apparently meant two marriages, but three ceremonies. (31 December 1999 and 9 January 2000) No wonder I was getting confused setting up charts!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, an important question that no one has asked. Do you know why Hamish married at age 16? This should be reflected in the relevant charts for the marriage.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

aj correctly asked this question earlier in the thread and the answer i gave in response is that hamish got married in seattle when he turned 16 as british columbia law at the time only allowed someone to marry by age 18 or 19..

hamishs 2nd marriage was on aug 31st 1980 - 1pm vancouver, b.c.

regarding the profection lord for the year - the solar return was hamish was 1:55 pm vancouver for 1969... technically the solar return chart, and profection lord for the time could be analyzed a few ways here as i see it.. as one can note in the profection chart that i posted earlier in the thread, it would be the same rising degree for the day regardless... one could argue for that planetary lord of the profection chart being in effect before his birthday by a good margin... bottom line is it is more of a technical exercise where we get into just when does the profection lord of the year take over...

below is the profection chart for the 2nd marriage time... it would be aquarius rising - so saturn profection lord, with scorpio in the month of the wedding, so mars sub lord...

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
aj correctly asked this question earlier in the thread and the answer i gave in response is that hamish got married in seattle when he turned 16 as british columbia law at the time only allowed someone to marry by age 18 or 19..

Yes, I remember reading that, but it doesn't explain why at the young age of 16 he wanted to get married. At this age young people are still in high school, and marriage isn't on their radar.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

correct... he is the youngest of 5 children.... what in the chart was pushing him to get married, aside from the legal age in b.c. verses seattle which facilitated this??
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The profected ascendant for age 15 is the 4th house, Pisces, which places natal Mars-Moon-Venus in Virgo in the profected 7th house. Profected ascendant lord of Pisces is natal Jupiter in 7th. (The charts I've set up so far point to the marriage happening at the very end of the 1968 solar return. Then by the end of the day the 1969 solar return began.)

I have to apologize for not reading this thread carefully, but from my review reading in the last day the profected chart isn't re-calculated, but simply rotates the natal chart to place the relevant house on the ascendant. I've been re-checking Lee Lehman's Profection section in Classical Astrology for Modern Living (Whiteford Press, 1996).

Lee Lehman strongly makes the point that the profection chart is not recalculated, but only rotated. I plan on reviewing Ben Dyke's translation of AbuMashar today, but a quick look just now says there is no mention of recalculating the profection chart.

Astrology is so varied and complex. I simply can't hold everything in memory, or maybe it's all stashed away in a mental basement like the last scene in the first Indiana Jones movie (Raiders of the Lost Ark) where the ark is placed in just another wooden crate among many thousands in a huge storage facility. I often visualize that scene and feel like that's what's happened to the memory part of my brain. Through the years I've studied and worked with various astrological systems. So reviewing a book is like going to the storage room and opening the relevant crate of information.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I have to apologize for not reading this thread carefully, but from my review reading in the last day the profected chart isn't re-calculated, but simply rotates the natal chart to place the relevant house on the ascendant. I've been re-checking Lee Lehman's Profection section in Classical Astrology for Modern Living (Whiteford Press, 1996).

In the exercises with this topic, the natal/Solar/Lunar charts were never recalculated.
BPHS ch74, only "rotates" (turns the wheel) the chart to the active profection, or Sudarshan Chakra Dasha becoming the "Ascendant of the Year."


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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
In the excercises with this topic, the natal/Solar/Lunar charts were never recalculated. BPHS ch74, only "rotates" (turns the wheel) the chart to the active profection, or Sudarshan Chakra Dasha becoming the "Ascendant of the Year."

Then it's the same principle that's used in classical western profections.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
AJ wrote:
Quote:
In the exercises with this topic, the natal/Solar/Lunar charts were never recalculated. BPHS ch74, only "rotates" (turns the wheel) the chart to the active profection, or Sudarshan Chakra Dasha becoming the "Ascendant of the Year."

Then it's the same principle that's used in classical western profections.

From what you have described then I would say yes. It's a chicken and the egg scenario where the technique originated, either east or west. Due to BPHS's shadowy provenance, Ch74, where it is described, could have been inserted into BPHS very late so I would lean toward the Greek/Arabic tradition.
Martin G. if you read this, might you have some scholarly insight about this?
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj,

i would pm martin if you want a response...

therese,

i was thinking about this and realize i gravitate to doing something in the present, as opposed to doing exactly what someone did in the past... i would like to understand exactly what astrologers did in the past, but know this is impossible.. one aspect of this is the exactitude we get with computers that was never available previously.. even doing sun in aries ingress charts was essentially impossible, but they did it anyway... as for the exactness you are looking for with the question over whether it was hamishs 16th or 15th solar return and etc would not have been handled this way 1000 years ago... it is a fact... so, we are left to our own devices ultimately..

sometimes i think exactness kills us, especially when it comes to subjective subjects like astrology.. it is almost like the exactness we can get with our computers directly matches the amount of subjectivity that is a large part of astrology that we want to turn a blind eye to... we hide behind the exactness of our data... that is how i see it..

i want to continue on with this exercise / project and i am tempted to provide some additional information that would jolt folks into understanding why hamish got married on his 16th birthday... i guess i am giving it away a wee bit by saying this much... something happened to hamish prior to his 16th birthday... it was very significant and had very big ramifications in hamishs life for an extended period of time including his first marriage at 16... can you get any idea from the chart at what that might be?? any wild guesses anyone? it is a 2 pronged answer that i am going to give regardless of any answer provided here..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote
Quote:
I would like to understand exactly what astrologers did in the past, but know this is impossible.. one aspect of this is the exactitude we get with computers that was never available previously.. even doing sun in aries ingress charts was essentially impossible, but they did it anyway..

It isn't at all impossible to know that astrologers did in the past, at least in the west, where there are good records of dates, astrological authors and techniques throughout history. And now with the new translations we are understanding much about classical astrology. Profections were clear-cut, progress one sign each year by rotating the chart. But as Ben Dykes points out, by the Arabic era the progressed point used was the precise degree rather than sign. This is something that will have to be researched sometime.

Quote:
I was thinking about this and realize i gravitate to doing something in the present, as opposed to doing exactly what someone did in the past.

We know you can be a maverick, James, and we know that this isn't the academic approach. A historic foundation has to be laid first, and principles have been researched and tested. Knowledge isn't obtained by hit and miss (at least not generally). And (sigh...) we're back to academic standards again. I don't want to debate this, but I think it's best to first test what has come down to us through the centuries, and if that doesn't produce truthful results, then it's time to go out on a limb, so to speak.
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AJ



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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
something happened to hamish prior to his 16th birthday... it was very significant and had very big ramifications in hamishs life for an extended period of time including his first marriage at 16... can you get any idea from the chart at what that might be?? any wild guesses anyone? it is a 2 pronged answer that i am going to give regardless of any answer provided here..

Can you give a window on the event/situation before his sixteenth b/day? like one year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, etc. before? Pad it a bit if you want, just want to limit the amount of time this might take to track down. Even with computer software, it takes some time to consider all of the possibilities of a life.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
From what you have described then I would say yes. It's a chicken and the egg scenario where the technique originated, either east or west. Due to BPHS's shadowy provenance, Ch74, where it is described, could have been inserted into BPHS very late so I would lean toward the Greek/Arabic tradition.

Chris Brennan says in Hellenistic Astrology (2017, 670 pages!) that annual profections was the most widespread time-lord technique in the Hellenistic tradition. He lists all the authors who discussed this technique of moving the ascendant one sign per year (page 536). Chris writes that based on what our known authors write, the technique goes back to earlier lost works of authors who are only known by reference to their names (Hermes, Nechepso, etc.).

Yes, it's true! To keep up on everything in this age of instant electronic publishing, we have to spend a fortune on books or maybe watch zillions of hours of videos and podcasts. Or both. I have Mercury in the 12th. Without a doubt my biggest expense over the years has been building my astrological library and a few other pet publishing interests.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
But as Ben Dykes points out, by the Arabic era the progressed point used was the precise degree rather than sign. This is something that will have to be researched sometime..


hi therese - well this is indeed what i was thinking with regard to the exactness you are looking for.. if the chart for hamish has 8 degree sag rising, we would have hit 0 degree in the profection chart a good week or more before hamishs 16th birthday, assuming the chart moves over the course of the year... so, technically the profection year would start a good week before his birthdate, if we go with the method you articulate above and which coincidentally was exactly what i was thinking about when i typed my comments too!

AJ wrote:

Can you give a window on the event/situation before his sixteenth b/day? like one year, 2 years, 3 years, 4 years, etc. before? Pad it a bit if you want, just want to limit the amount of time this might take to track down. Even with computer software, it takes some time to consider all of the possibilities of a life.


after his 7th birthday, in the following year 1961 - something of real significance took place.. after his 11th birthday, in the year 1965 - something of real significance also took place.... these 2 events, which are not so much events, as patterns that developed thru one specific trigger point shaped his desire to marry at at 16.. unfortunately he does not have specific dates for these events, but knows they happened when he was 7 and 11 without knowing the specific dates involved...
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
hi therese - well this is indeed what i was thinking with regard to the exactness you are looking for.. if the chart for hamish has 8 degree sag rising, we would have hit 0 degree in the profection chart a good week or more before hamishs 16th birthday, assuming the chart moves over the course of the year... so, technically the profection year would start a good week before his birthdate, if we go with the method you articulate above and which coincidentally was exactly what i was thinking about when i typed my comments too!

James, I'll get back to you on this after the book we both ordered arrives, and I can read the new translation and Ben Dykes' comments. I haven't really worked with profections, so this is an interesting topic to explore.
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