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Hi James: just a note on this...
Therese Hamilton wrote: S.P. Khullar (and perhaps K.S. Krishnamuti as well) places the first marriage in the 7th house, the 2nd marriage in 9th, and the third marriage in 11th. Also the 11th can relate to any marriage as it is trine the 7th and supports the 7th. Western horary may do the same. I'm not sure.
Good points by Therese but this was noted early in the discussion.
Talking of Hamish's first wedding...
Solar Saturn as ruler of Cp is also in the SC 4th you could argue is activated to being placed in the Lunar 11th and Solar 1st. 11th and 1st house activations are not uncommon in marriage events but its very tempting to keep going and knowing when to stop when we have three charts. This is why I think it's important to initially limit how far one can pursue an event with this chart, or you can make anything go.
According to Khullar in Therese's quote there should have been strong 7th house activations in Hamish's first wedding, there was not in the SC. As you suggest the next approach might be isolating the different charts and look for strong contacts there. Noted before too that in v.19-20 seems to imply that the natal houses have more influence.
Here's some food for thought...
Taking the natal ascendant as the activator for the SC dasha.
For Hamish's first marriage: 5th house of emotions SC dasha starts, natally this is Aries. Or the profection for the year is Aries.
The Solar 7th house of marriage is Aries.
Lunar 8th of the marital tie is Aries.

Still would like to see an obvious activation to that natal Ju in the 7th. Natally Mars is aspecting the 1st(Ju), 4th(Ju) and 5th(Ma) houses but no direct link to Ju itself that I can see using Mars' traditional aspects in the three charts, just houses/signs.

I still find the Vimshottari dasha of Rahu/Jupiter exceedingly more obvious and telling than the profection for this event.
For Hamish's 3rd marriage the Vimshottari dasha was just the inverse of his first, Jupiter/Rahu! Very interesting.
In D9 Ju rules the 7th and Ju and Ra are in mutual aspect from trinal houses.

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AJ wrote:
Stalemate? Not quite yet. All I was presenting was my conclusions using the method presented in ch 74 of BPHS that I found seriously wanting. .

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In India SC is used but its transmission has been oral, contained, guarded and controlled within families of practicing astrologers over generations.

Having settled at least to my satisfaction the deficiencies of the approach in BPHS, I feel much freer now to try other approaches to Sudarshan and the SC dasha.
Don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or as Treebeard in LOTR says, Don't be hasty.

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.... in chapter 74 of his translation and commentary of BPHS Santhanam gives an example chart and illustration of Sudarshan Chakra providing detailed astronomical data of the planets and houses and of course the Vargas. In doing a careful time search just within signs in both the tropical and sidereal*, there is no such astronomical coincidence of his given values in recorded history. Perhaps it is a typographical error but it is more likely a made-up teaching chart because Santhanam does not provide any birth data. Unlike the rest of the edition when a sample chart is presented. This is interesting he would use a teaching chart rather than an actual one as he does extensively elsewhere. I find this odd.

The sample chart only goes over the house placement of the planets within the Sudarshan chakra as a natal reading, Santhanam does not give an example of the predictive method of SC dasha.
okay! thanks for continuing on with this exercise aj! it is hard to know what the astrololgers in india are doing if it is an oral tradition that is being passed on.. based on the chapter in BPHS, it seems like something is missing and as you point out, it is odd they provide a teaching example, as opposed to an actual example..

how would you like to proceed from here??

therese

thanks for pointing that out... turning the chart is something very popular in certain schools of astrology which seems to include much of indian astrology.. thanks for that..

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Very sorry, I'm trying to finish up two projects at the moment, so can't get into this topic by careful reading. But I wanted to check something about marriage.
For Hamish's wedding on 11/3/1969...
James, is this November 3 or March 11? Here in the U.S. we always put the month first, but most of the rest of the world places the day first.
Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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james_m wrote: how would you like to proceed from here??
Good question, I've looked at the events we have for Hamish using the natal houses as the SC dasha against the Lunar and Solar charts.
I'm not really sure this is leading anywhere noteworthy. Some of the house linkage by sign is intriguing but not convincing at least insofar comparing it to the Vimshottari dasha of the marriage events.

(From earlier)For Hamish's first marriage: 5th house of emotions SC dasha starts, natally this is Aries. Or the profection for the year is Aries.
The Solar 7th house of marriage is Aries.
Lunar 8th of the marital tie is Aries.

Hamish's 3rd marriage SC dasha is 11th or Libra, hence Venus. Venus is the natural significator for marriage and is in the natal 10th. (Overlooking Venus' weakness for now.)
In the Lunar chart Libra falls int he 2nd house of family.
In the Solar chart Libra falls in the 1st house of self.

The planet activations are of course the Sun and Saturn. I am just not seeing any strong themes to marriage with them by placement or rulerships, of course, other than Venus. In Marriage #1 there is no clear planetary activation at all to the 7th with this approach, just the active profection sign/house.

Next we could check the profections as calculated from the Solar and Lunar charts and see if this is any better/worse. I will email you the profections for those.

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hi therese,

sorry for the lack of clarity - he got married on his 16th birthday - november 3rd 1969... i usually put day, month, and year in that order, but i see that i didn't do that here..

thanks aj,

for his wedding date -

ascendant profection 11/03/69 - leo

solar profection 11/03/1969 14:56 Aquarius

lunar profection is 11/03/1969 14:56 Capricorn

of the 3 - saturn is favourably situated in the natal chart which fits with the solar and lunar dasa for this year... i say that as saturn is exalted in the sign libra...

if you take the secondary dasa applicable for the month of december, one gets ascendant profection is sun with sub dasa ruler mercury.. for solar profection -saturn with sub dasa - jupiter.. lunar profection saturn with sub dasa saturn as well... all in all - the focus on saturn is the cumulative emphasis as the dasa ruler for this period, doing a quick synthesis... how is saturn placed in the chart? it rules the 2nd and 3rd and is located in the 11th - using ascendant as the primary focal point..

frankly, i am inclined to go back to the persian approach which factors in the solar return heavily in combination with the profection lord for the year! however, i am very receptive to your input and happy to continue in this exercise as you see it too..

below are the solar returns for 1969 and 1999. of course there is a 30 year difference here and that equals a saturn return essentially.. what you see in both solar returns is an exchange between the sun-saturn opposition libra - aries where each are exalted in the others sign... also the ascendant in both signs has saturn as ruler, or exalted ruler of the ascendant..

1969

Image


1999

Image

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James wrote:
thanks for pointing that out... turning the chart is something very popular in certain schools of astrology which seems to include much of indian astrology.. thanks for that..
Regarding the 11th house and marriage, I wasn't thinking of turning the chart, just using the houses in place.

I don't want to interrupt the flow of conversation here, but have some interesting charts regarding the two marriages of Hamish. (I don't think the date of the 2nd marriage was posted...?) If I have time I'll discuss these charts under a new topic on the sidereal forum, and leave this conversation to continue in the way it's going.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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james_m wrote: frankly, i am inclined to go back to the persian approach which factors in the solar return heavily in combination with the profection lord for the year! however, i am very receptive to your input and happy to continue in this exercise as you see it too..
Tajika use of solar returns or Varshphal is very close to the Persian approach you mention. Tajika calls the profection of the ascendant the Muntha and is calculated the same as it advances one sign per year.
In addition, Varshphal uses a Lord of the Year as a key concept. The year lord is the planet that receives the greatest strength in a specific system of strength calculations, but it must have an aspect to the ascendant to be influential.
BTW Varshphal also uses a couple of special dasha systems to break the year up into periods for more accurate predicting.

I'm not sure where to go from here with Sudarshan Chakra as a unified concept as presented in BPHS. Clearly, anyone reading the posts is getting lost very quickly, it is very technical. I think I'll keep it in the back of my mind and let it stew some more. Maybe I'll stumble into more info on the technique.

Maybe it is just a red herring.

I'm with you, going back to more familiar techniques.

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AJ wrote
Tajika use of solar returns or Varshphal is very close to the Persian approach you mention. Tajika calls the profection of the ascendant the Muntha and is calculated the same as it advances one sign per year.
In addition, Varshphal uses a Lord of the Year as a key concept. The year lord is the planet that receives the greatest strength in a specific system of strength calculations, but it must have an aspect to the ascendant to be influential.
BTW Varshphal also uses a couple of special dasha systems to break the year up into periods for more accurate predicting.


Checking the Varshaphala for fun, the year of first marriage 1969.

The Muntha is in 4th house with saturn. Lord of muntha mars exalted in ascendant. Seems to be much influenced by family and tradition, home ?
Moving to own place ?

Year lord as you mentioning here is Jupiter for 1969.
Jupiter is wellplaced in the fortunate 9th house CLOSELY conjunct venus - marriage indicator.

Using a dasha for the solar return. "Patyayini Varshapal dasha" we find that marriage took place in the Moon - Moon dasha - 7th lord.

Like Therese i have just scanned this thread. Interesting stuff.

Image

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Stefan wrote: Checking the Varshaphala for fun, the year of first marriage 1969.
The Muntha is in 4th house with saturn. Lord of muntha mars exalted in ascendant. Seems to be much influenced by family and tradition, home ?
Moving to own place ?
Year lord as you mentioning here is Jupiter for 1969.
Jupiter is wellplaced in the fortunate 9th house CLOSELY conjunct venus - marriage indicator.
Using a dasha for the solar return. "Patyayini Varshapal dasha" we find that marriage took place in the Moon - Moon dasha - 7th lord.
Thanks Stephan, good post. I was just about to comment on Hamish's first wedding per Varshphal but you beat me to it! Couldn't put it more succinctly but I think the Mars Saturn (neecha) is more of a rebellion to family and tradition than influence. Note that the 2nd house comes to the ascendant in the SR (Varshphal), Hamish is declaring his independence from family this year. Saturn in the 4th at least to me indicates problems at home, mostly as a statement to father. Neecha Venus, and in D9 too, just like in the Rashi, in the 9th with Jupiter in Vi indicates a propensity for poor decisions with opposition to his actions by ones close to him during this year.
James:Do you have more background/insight on this event?
Last edited by AJ on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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edited note - there is something wrong with this date of the 2nd marriage listed below... i have asked hamish for greater clarify... as i recall he was married a 3rd time on dec 31st 1999, but then had another ceremony in india where they flew to after africian marriage location... so, my data below is wrong, or is the date of the other marriage ceremony in new delhi... waiting to hear back from hamish...

therese,

it sounds like a method of turning the chart, but if it isn't - thanks for letting me know that..

hamishs 2nd marriage was january 9th 2000... i think it was probably in vancouver b.c. i am curious about the new thread you start on this.. thanks!

thanks aj -

this method does seem confusing and lacking important info based on what is in chapter 74 of BPHS.. i am not sure how to proceed further here either, and am not familiar with the technique / s you and stefan are presently using! looks interesting though..

looking at stefans charts, sometimes i think having indian astrology software would help in my learning curve.. it might confuse me even more however - and i am undecided on all this...

i have yet to look at the data i have just shared on hamishs 2nd marriage... i was thinking of getting hamish involved in the thread here, but i leaning towards not doing that yet... as for input - i think you are correct in your analysis below -
AJ wrote:.....but I think the Mars Saturn (neecha) is more of a rebellion to family and tradition than influence. Note that the 2nd house comes to the ascendant in the SR (Varshphal), Hamish is declaring his independence from family this year. Saturn in the 4th at least to me indicates problems at home, mostly as a statement to father. Neecha Venus, and in D9 too, just like in the Rashi, in the 9th with Jupiter in Vi indicates a propensity for poor decisions with opposition to his actions by ones close to him during this year.
James:Do you have more background/insight on this event?
i can get hamish to comment further if you'd like...

thanks stefan for getting involved in the post here and thanks aj and therese for the ongoing participation...

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james_m wrote:
edited note - there is something wrong with this date of the 2nd marriage listed below... i have asked hamish for greater clarify... as i recall he was married a 3rd time on dec 31st 1999, but then had another ceremony in india where they flew to after africian marriage location... so, my data below is wrong, or is the date of the other marriage ceremony in new delhi... waiting to hear back from hamish... and am not familiar with the technique / s you and stefan are presently using! looks interesting though..

looking at stefans charts, sometimes i think having indian astrology software would help in my learning curve.. it might confuse me even more however - and i am undecided on all this...
Yes, please clarify the dates.

There is also the learning curve with new software that can be quite steep in some instances. Cost is another. More things to think about.

As far as the technique of Varshphal, until the advent of modern software, very few astrologers actually took the time to go through the arduous and even somewhat ambiguous calculations for the Year lord or Varsheshwara. The same can be said about the dasha system Stefan used too. This dasha is called Patyayini Dasha and is pretty accurate but its calculation is also difficult as it is based on the longitude of the planets rather than on the position of the Moon in Nakshatra based dasha systems. It is unique to each chart. There is also one called mudda dasha that is popular which is just Vimshotarri condensed into one year. Now that I think about it there is also another mudda dasha that uses the progressed Moon that moves forward at 1 Nakshatra per year. So, the question of which dasha to use in Varshphal has many different options and adherents and dasha isn't necessarily the end-all of prediction.

Before computer software, to avoid and speed up the calculating process the strongest planet or ascendant lord would serve as the Year Lord showing the potential for the year and the house with the Sun would be the main focus of activity for the year, etc.
As far as the progressed ascendant, or profection this is called the Muntha and looking at the placement and strength of its lord and sign for its effects. Timing and specific events were based on transits more than Varshphal dashas, and/or the angles of the chart were progessed at the rate of moving the MC one degree for every four days.

What I'm saying here is that for every day and the most part the Persian method would give you comparable results.

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when i get the update on the 2nd marriage date from hamish, i will share it.. he wasn't sure of the year 1979 or 1980, but he has a diary that has this info in it.. the date he did give me is as i was saying - the ceremony with his wife, who is from india, that took place in india after the 3rd marriage date mentioned earlier... so jaunary 9th 2000 was the date of the ceremony held in new delhi - essentially another 3rd marriage date to go with the one in africa - dec 31st 1999...

thanks for your thoughts on the use of the software... i am very curious about all these different systems and techniques, but you are right - they may parallel ones that i already am somewhat familiar with.. talk soon - james