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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Richard Branson Spaceman (Sidereal)
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks James for presenting the converse directions for RBranson and thoughts on the loss of his property.
james_m wrote:

i get conflicted with all the options and have noticed how it is easy to find the astro to solidify a position astrologically.. it is very difficult to stay objective on it all.. the ideal scenario is an AA birth time.. failing that the concept of rectification is tricky as i see it... i feel the same way about rectification software programs, but perhaps this is the way of the future and i need to be receptive to advances in this area..

I hear ya. What you are talking about is "selective perception" and its a problem we all face as astrologers. I try and not to but yet selective perception is always a phantasm ready to cloud my myopic vision at any time. Cases in point is the discussion of Branson's chart (which I still favor a few minutes before the given time of 0700, yet Issac's rectification also seems convincing within the techniques he uses, software-generated aside), Isaac also gives a rectification for Donald Trumps chart for 10:34 (rounded) that has been discussed briefly here on Skyscript (see ref below).

Now DT's birth time is given as 10:54 which is Rodden AA, and frankly, I find the 10:54 time works quite well and see no need to rectify it. Again if you follow the link to his blog the event hits within the topocentric method and the 10:34 chart presented for DT presents a good argument.

Now I do not use topocentric methods or tropical for that matter but yet we both have a different "selective perception" of these two charts (Branson and Trump). Who is right? Is there wrong when speaking within distinct or eclectic astrological systems?

Here’s another instance. Stefan has found additional solar arcs and a natal configuration for the tragic burning down of RB’s home using the rectified 7:12 chart. Yet on the other hand from my sidereal perspective, I still prefer the earlier time because there are no transits within a degree to any planet or house using the 07:12 chart, but with the 0700 chart transiting destructive 8th lord Saturn is separating within a degree of the Equal Bhava Madhya of the third house aspecting the fifth, eighth ninth and 12th (RB lost a wealth of personal and other career stuff, original recordings and the like). Back the BT a few minutes earlier to 0655 and the aspect is exact. Also, most birth times are recorded as having occurred somewhat later than they actually were. Yet I would not be so pretentious as to declare Stefan wrong. His contributions to this forum are well thought out and astrologically sound.

So James, your point that it is easy to fit many astro events to solidify any astrological position is quite true. Having just come full circle I think it is an important issue for everyone to be aware and that not one of us is immune.

I know if I or any astrologer tries hard enough and include enough techniques or “points” of celestial confetti with or without hypothetical planets you can validate any chart or event.

I'm not sure there is a way out of the "selective perception" spiral in or out the different schools and individual practice of astrology, let alone personal politics, (but that is for another forum I think) other than respecting differing opinions.

Now as far as rectification software, myself et al really haven't seen them work all that well. In any tests I have performed they all fail and sometimes get close, but never right on. Not unlike manual rectification, I guess. Now I must say I have not used or tested Issac's software but just following several of the rectifications given by him I can't say that I would not expect to change my opinion but this could be explained by my "selective perception".

The two types of rectification software I tested a while back, maybe two years ago, one was confined to a distinct technique and omitted all others using primaries only, Van Dam I think, and would not consider transits or progressions. The other software module allows you to use many systems, transits, day for a year, solar arc etc. no mundane primaries with several proposed charts at once or just one chart scoring each event with the differing progressions; leaving it up to the astrolgoer to choose the best fit or tweak the chart and run it again. [BTW... These tests used approximate birth times.] Faster just to take a stab at it with that module.

I have yet to see a program, or an individual astrologer for that matter get a 24-hour rectification correct. My conclusion is that software rectification is not reliable at this time, especially with Indian astrological techniques. Primaries IMO were the best engine that powered the software rectification car but its a Yugo, if you catch my meaning. Issac may be on to something with the topocentric primaries but it would take a lot for me to be convinced.

Rectification is a slippery slope even for very experienced astrologers that can isolate the factors for each event. Astrologers can't help themselves fiddling with the even the best of documented birthtimes myself included.

‌My selective perceptions, be well.

References:
[Confused Post by Fadi initially as his own rectification but closing credits it as Issac's rectification. I am a bit confused between the synchronicity of Fadi and Isaac's posts I've seen on Skyscript.]
“Skyscript.Co.Uk :: View Topic - Rectification: Donald Trump.” 2011. Skyscript.Co.Uk. 2011. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9946&highlight=.

Rodden, Lois. 2017. “Donald Trump, Horoscope for Birth Date 14 June 1946, Born in Jamaica Hospital Queens (Queens County), with Astrodatabank Biography - Astro-Databank.” Astro.Com. 2017. https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
So James, your point that it is easy to fit many astro events to solidify any astrological position is quite true. Having just come full circle I think it is an important issue for everyone to be aware and that not one of us is immune.

I know if I or any astrologer tries hard enough and include enough techniques or “points” of celestial confetti with or without hypothetical planets you can validate any chart or event.

I'm not sure there is a way out of the "selective perception" spiral in or out the different schools and individual practice of astrology, let alone personal politics, (but that is for another forum I think) other than respecting differing opinions.

AJ, many thanks for a great post on the dilemma we all face! "Selective perception"....couldn't be better said. We also have the timing dilemma between tropical and sidereal transits. These will hit at different times due to precession, especially later in life. So the zodiac controversy has to ultimately be settled.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aj,

i 2nd thereses comments to you as well... being objective is really quite difficult and i will be the first to admit it.. as a consequence i tend to not let others off easy either! regarding your reference points, i had a similar conclusion more recently on this thread - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10561

i was looking at more data on branson and admire what stefan was doing in his examples above which is what an astrologer has to do if they want to entertain different times and possible rectification methods.. in using the 7 or 712am times, i can't come up with anything definitive myself.. i looked at the bike accident he had on aug 20 2016 - exactly 5 years to the day after the house fire where he lost some of his possessions.. nothing conclusive is seen in it all from my end.. it is a real challenge working with rounded off times, but i am unfortunately not sold on rectification software either!
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... It's 11 days until Richard Branson's announced launch into space and the media is eerily quiet about this event. It's especially odd since Virgin Galactic just announced today they are going public soon. If you want PR and media blitz now is the time to generate buzz before you go public. If I were Virgin Galactic's Marketing Manager I would be having my field day right now. Perhaps in a few more days, we'll hear something but now's the time to announce the circus is coming to town.

Maybe I missed it on my news feed but it seems odd to me we have not had some social media or updated news about it.

RB's transiting Saturn 8th lord of obstacles with Ketu in the sixth house, too many sudden hindrances/disputes/health?

Dodson, Marianne. 2019. “Richard Branson’s Virgin Galactic Plans to Go Public.” The Daily Beast. The Daily Beast. July 9, 2019. https://www.thedailybeast.com/richard-bransons-virgin-galactic-plans-to-go-public.

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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

Just saying that I share many of the ideas expressed here generally about rectification and so forth. I will not elaborate on my wiews about it here as I have done it on some other forums during the years, and don't want to go that same road again.
But I am enjoying testing charts as a discipline of astrology. It is highly enjoyable. Right or wrong about the time is not the issue here...just pure 8th house exploring, feeding my 8th house placements of sun, mercury and jupiter. The concentration required stills the mind and is enjoyable imo.


About Isaac
, I have some good experiences with his rectifications, including my own chart. So I am generally positive biased as to his work. But I do not agree with his work many times as well.

As for Bransons chart I focused here more on western techniques as we are in that section now. But I have also looked at his jyotish chart with divisional charts. There is not that much differences there with the 7:00 time and the 7:12 time.

But one thing stands out imo in his many subcharts is that planet venus (music) is repeating it's sign position gemini in soo many key subcharts. And venus is in own sign in navamsha chart. This explains to me some about his success with music related affairs. Some good karma there.

Venus is also ruling his 4th house (homes) in his sidereal whole sign chart, so the strength of venus as ruler gives his many good homes, including his own Island in a 'distant place'. Which is spot on with venus as ruler of 4th placed in 12th house (foreign, distant places).
(He bought the Island 1978,

https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/how-i-bought-necker-island

which give venus as subperiod for that bargain !
It was in the major period of the sun. The sun is vargottam in the 4th house in his subchart for homes Chaturthamsha (which is true for the 7:12:28 time, but not the 7:00 time.
In chaturthamsha home chart the 7:12 time sun is 5th ruler placed in 4th house, which give good karma with home in the sun period.
In 7:00 chaturthamsha home chart... the sun is 8th ruler placed in 7th.


the burning down of his home 2011 was in a moon subperiod. Moon is placed in scorpio in his 8th house of upheaval and changes in 7:12 chart.)

So this look at the Chaturthamsha home chart with the periods was another key that made me think that his birth is some time after 7 am.






Yes, we will see how this new adventure turns out for him ?


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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great insights on both the western and the sidereal charts Stefen. Much food for thought.

Yes, I am very curious now it is getting closer to the announced date of RB's "adventure" flight into space.

Be Well.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefan,

thanks! great comments.. i 2nd aj's comment to you..

i have never worked with the D4 chart, so your use of this is quite fascinating to me.. after looking at a number of the divisional charts for branson, it is true - venus in gemini shows up more then a few times..

below are the 7am and 712:38am D4 charts.. as one can quickly see, a 12 minute difference really alters the angles and house positions..





although i haven't read this book by vp goel on divisional charts, i am going to quote a few of his comments on the examination of D4 charts..

"1. Jupiter is the signifactor of happiness and is examined in D4 for its status, placement etc. jupiter in 6,8,12 houses gives despair for wealth.. mars is the signifcator built up properties.. venus is for luxuries and vehicles, moon for mental happiness and mother, mercury for education, saturn for friends and masses, change of residence after marriage for girls..

2. see the relation of 2nd lord, 11th lord of D1 chart with jupiter in D4 chart.. a good relation assures happiness.

3. formation of dhana yoga in D4 assures wealth and happiness.

4. presence of rajyoga gives enjoyment of wealth.

5. mars is the signifactor of fixed assets.. strong mars is a must for owning land/buildings.. mars in 10th house of D4 is best placement for granting fixed assets.

6. tenth lord of D1 chart, if related to lagna or lagna lord of D4 then lots of income from properties is assured.

7. ketu in 4th house or related to 4th house gives loss of assets due to natural calamity.

there are another 12 points!!! it is all mostly greek to me.. i find the whole use of divisional charts, or what are called harmonic charts in the west - fascinating, so it is all something i quite interested in and fascinated with... thanks stefan for the encouragement to continue my studies in this direction in your own roundabout way!
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if anyone wants to follow up talking about the D4 chart - i made a new post and included the other 12 points from v. p. goels book here - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=111857#111857

stefan,

i am curious how many other divisional charts you examined in a similar manner? i was looking at teh D10 and D9 charts this morning... although i don't have anything firm to communicate about what i was looking at, i thought i would ask if you had looked at more of the divisional charts in a comparative way?

here are the D9 - navamsha charts for consideration... without looking which one is which - which one makes more sense to you, aj and others??



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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i am curious how many other divisional charts you examined in a similar manner? i was looking at teh D10 and D9 charts this morning... although i don't have anything firm to communicate about what i was looking at, i thought i would ask if you had looked at more of the divisional charts in a comparative way?


Hi James,
Yes I am working with the divisional charts both static and dynamically.
looking at it dynamically by seeing the planetary periods in the particular varga (divisional chart) for clues about the periods manifestation in that area of life.

The Navamsha chart can give clues both as life in general and for relationships.

In this case both navamshas have strength so it is not easy to distinguish between them as both have value. But Having looked at it closer I think I go for the jupiter rising vargottama aquarius navamsha.
Jupiter plays a big role in Bransons way of expressing himself imo generally. So this strong vargottama jupiter in navamsha makes sense, it is aspecting by mars 3rd lord (I use aspects in navamsha chart, which is a no-no for some astrologers, but that is what I been learned). 3rd lord of adventure and courage mars influencing lagna with jupiter makes sense.
Ascendant saturn is in the fortunate 9th house exalted with venus in libra own sign, this gives a great raja yoga as well combining 1st and 9th lord in a fortunate trikona (aspected by jupiter which is wealth significator for a aqua lagna.
Venus 4th lord of homes is in own sign conjuncting lagna lord in 9th house foreign places. It is placed with saturn 12th lord ( distant places), fitting his nice Island home luxury. Which was aquired in venus subperiod as is echoing the same rulership from his birth chart.

EDIT
His first child died. He have rahu in 5th house (first child) aspected by saturn in 8th house. (sorry, not in navamsha - I'm talking about his saptamsha child chart here)

This child died 1979, in moon-moon period probably. Moon is in 5th house in this navamsha, 5th ruler in 8th house with rahu.

He married first time 1972 in venus-ketu period.
Ketu subperiod makes sense in this navamsha as ketu gives result according to jupiter, which is placed in ascendant giving key event.


In looking at Dwadashamsha chart (parents).
From 7:05 there is aries ascendant in this divisional chart.
He comes from a family of lawyers and judges. His 9th house of father is sag with jupiter exalted in cancer in 4th house (roots) in association with a vargottama sun, gving a picture of a good father lawyer.
Mother was air hostess and dancer. From 4th house the 10th house ruler is placed with venus (art) in 12th house (distant places, yoga for travel in job).

The earlier ascendant for dwadashamsha chart have debilitated moon and ketu in 9th house (father), does not make sense.

D-24 Siddhamsha education
In this chart with 7:12 rectified time, we have a debilitated venus in 8th house (very weak). It was in his venus major period he struggled with his dyslexia and education.
"Branson has dyslexia and had poor academic performance;"
In this chart which is true from 7:12 venus is ruler of 4th house (primary edu) and 9th house (higher edu), This poor venus placement denies academic success.

"Honours and awards


In 1993, Branson was awarded an honorary degree of Doctor of Technology from Loughborough University

This was in mars dasha and probably rahu subperiod.
Mars is in cap exalted in siddhashamsha edu chart. rahu is in 11th house of rewards.


Navamsha chart

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Stefan



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Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edited...
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefan, i have some questions to ask, but they are going to have to wait until sunday... i have some work to do tomorrow and was fairly busy today and last night as well working.. thanks james
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi stefan,

a few comments.. first off - the differences gotten via the lahiri and krishnamurti D9 charts is interesting... minor little shifts make a difference...i am not sure how to factor all of that, but i am acknowledging these differences for anyone else who might be interested in comparing the d9 charts stefan and i posted in this thread...

okay.. as i understand it the natal chart is a key ingredient to any read on the divisional charts.. just what does jupiter in aquarius in the 8th house tell us? jupiter and the sun are vargottam via the navamsha chart... this is said to strengthen both planets, but what exactly does this mean and how would it be described, or demonstrated? further to this sun and moon are in mutual reception which ultimately strengthens the role of both lights as well..

in looking at his chart, jupiter is an important planet from a marc edmund jones pov, as it is the handle planet to his bucket chart... but no matter, jupiter remains in the 8th.. profiting off others, whether by accident or design is one of the features of the 8th house, but it is generally viewed as an unfavourable house in all astro literature... my view on jupiter in the 8th is one of success generally.. in bransons case it is in the 8th of both his ascendant and sun.. the 8th relationship between his sun and jupiter is retained or repeated in the navamsha chart as well... so this relationship is an important factor in bransons life from an astrological pov if we are looking at the natal and navamsha chart as useful..

so, aside from raising the specter of whether the 8th house is always bad, or if it is only bad when a malefic is in it and not when a benefic is in it - a dilemma that racks many astrologers brains, i have to ask how it is affected by the moon-saturn in the 2nd, or whether bringing it to the ascendant as it is in navmasha off the 712am chart is indeed a good thing... i think the moon-saturn dominates the jupiter in so far as jupiter is ruled by saturn and is outnumbered 2 to 1 in terms of the 2-8 axis... as for the navamsha ascendant in aquarius - 8th to the cancer planets - again, why would this be better then capricorn rising in the 7am navamsha?? i would generally think it would be more favourable to have the 7th sign in the navamsha rising as opposed to the 8th? maybe it is altered via jupiters presence in the same sign - but again, they are under the domain of saturn, with saturn being ruled by sun, sun by moon and looped into a chain of saturn-sun-moon, again putting the focus on the 1st and 2nd house of the chart...

i am not sure how far one can go with divisional charts.. it is fun to include yogas too, as it seems you've done ( i need to learn more about these as well)... having jupiter aspecting mars engages the 10/3 houses in the 712am navamsha chart as opposed to the 11/4 in the 7am navamsha chart...

ultimately much of this falls on how one interprets jupiter in the 8th as a pivotal planet to his chart... he is presently in the jupiter dasa period going from 22 jan 2014 to 2030 - 7am or 30 dec 2013 - 2029 in the 712am chart..

i see how you are differentiating between the times using the different divisional charts... my gut tells me these charts are secondary to the natal chart where much of the info on his path and traits ought to be gotten... maybe i am wrong and the divisional charts can help in bringing greater insight on a number of topics, not just possible rectifications.. thanks for the energy you put into your post with comments on divisional charts as it relates to branson..
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's Richard's birthday today. Certainly looks like he's not going to make into space by the 20th at this point. Not the first time his hubris got the better of him. Mars in the 3rd sextile the ascendant.
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