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Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: besiegement Reply with quote

i think i understand the concept as it is presented in western astrology.. interestingly enough, i have stumbled onto the concept in indian astrology.. it is called papa kartari, or paap kartari..

i never heard of these terms before, but it is essentially a yoga about being besieged by 2 malefics, although in indian astrology it can be for a house, as opposed to just a planet.. that is what is different about it.. and, interestingly enough india has come up with the concept of being besieged by benefics - which implies a positive result for the planets or house being besieged.. it is all so very interesting and maybe the traditional astrologers know all about this and it is nothing that i am sharing that is novel here...

in fact, as memory serves, if a planet is apparently beseiged, it might in fact not be, given the concept of the planet that appears besieged applying by aspect to a planet outside the enclosure that has positive influence... on the other hand, here is a chart which some might say qualifies for venus being besieged by aspect...thoughts?
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Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

Interesting find!

The concept of emperischesis (enclosure) and perischesis (containment) do exist in Hellenistic Astrology [see "Definitions" by Schmidt and "Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and Fortune" by Chris Brennan].

These concepts are not limited to the malefics only (giving negative connotations) but are also applicable to the benefics (giving more positive indications).

These two concepts must also admit a third concept i.e. Mesembolesis (intervention) which can "nullify" the enclosure.

Let's leave the concept of containment for now. We shall look further into enclosure as this is closer to the medieval concept of besiegement - as well as intervention.

Enclosure can happen by degree and by sign.
By degree: When a planet (say Planet A) is bodily conjoined by two planets (say Planets B and C) with one each side of planet A.

By sign: When a planet (say Planet A) is aspected by two planets (say planets B and C) with one casting a ray on each side of planet A. Hellenistic sources seem to want the rays (planets B and C) to be within seven degrees of planet A.

Both of the above could be "tempered" or "released" by an intervening ray from another planet (say Planet D) - this is intervention.

However, I found through horary experience that enclosure or besiegement by degree or sign can only be "released" by intervention by degree. If the intervention is by aspect, then there is no "release" but there will be "temporal release". This has been my experience with "intervention" and I was happy to see it "sort of validated" theoretically by Sahl in his book (see "the Astrology of Sahl Ibn Bishar" by Ben Dykes - his latest book).

In your example, Venus is in separating square with Saturn in Aries and applying sextile to Mars in Gemini. Hence, there is enclosure by aspect. However, Venus is also applying to Jupiter by trine before she meets Mars by sextile. hence, there is intervention by sign.

If this were a natal chart, one possible interpretation is that a sibling (Venus as ruler of 3rd) will be affected by a chronic disease (Saturn ruler of and posited in the 6th house squaring Venus) but is given a "release" due to intervention by Jupiter for a period of 12 years (being the minor number of Jupiter). If Jupiter were to be located at 21-25 deg Aries, then there is complete release of the disease (due to intervention by degrees). So, the disease will relapse or return (Jupiter retrograde) after the period of release. However, the disease would have been as bad if the aspect with Mars was a bad aspect. In this case, Venus aspect is sextile to Mars. Hence, though the disease returns, it can be treated or even cured with Martial techniques (probably an operation or two operations as Mars is in Gemini).

Of course, this is just one take... this is usually confirmed using other indicators .. I would want to see the lot of necessity to be somehow involved (which in this case is because the Lot is in Capricorn).
Making predictions for other people in a chart is precarious at best.

Another take would be lawsuits (as Saturn is also ruler of 7th) with the the native...[you can fill in the rest..!]

If this is a horary chart, and assuming Venus is the quesited, the matter would have been perfected had Jupiter been in at 21-25 deg Aries (due to intervention by degrees) regardless of the enclosure/besiegement. In this case, the matter can only be perfected if re-negotiation is made (retrograde Jupiter in 5th house) with small partial loss to the querent (applying sextile aspect to Mars). Jupiter retrograde in the fifth could also mean through getting help from ambassador or lover (ruler of 5th in 5th) or even bribery (Jupiter is also ruler of 8th house - other people's money).

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Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James -yeah, in this example, it is not besieged in western either. Venus is mitigated by the Jupiter trine, which would come between the aspects and not make it besieged. I still interpret this in natal and horary as something potentially significant and it is something I have in my own chart. I would say the almost besiegment that is mitigated could represent difficulty that is overcome in some manner or by a person (such as in horary).
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Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tanit,

thanks so much for chiming in!!! we might be a group of 2 here at skyscript, but we are a dedicated duo, lol... i am in a silly mood tonight and it shows in my comments and posts..

i read that book by ben dykes - introductions to traditional astrology - abu ma'shar and al-qabisi... in that book these astrologers go over these concepts.. i can't find a particular page for those who have the book, but the section enclosures covers some of it - page 224.. there is actually a lot of other areas of the book - pushing management, pushing two natures and etc. etc. earlier in the book - page 170 and forward, that go into all of this as well...

the concept is interesting.. if it originated in hellenistic astro - and it might have, as i seem to remember reading about this sort of thing in some of the hellenistic books too with planets casting rays this way and that, that is was an idea that had it origins prior to these later astrologers that are covered in ben dykes book/s...

now - i realize this is a trad forum, but i was thinking of the enclosure involving saturn-pluto!!!! if i ignore pluto, i can see how all of what you say applies... so, that was where i was coming from in presenting this idea.. but i have benefited from you articulating all that you have here in this post.. thanks tanit.. fwiw - this happened just a few days ago.. perhaps for those with planets in the area inbetween saturn-pluto - 20-23 cardinal - might have something to comment on about this.. it is all being offset by jupiter which is now inside this enclosure at 22 sag 56 retro approx and moving back, it would be interesting to hear about there thoughts on it... thanks..
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Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

I think that the same idea is present in "The Book of Instructions in the Elements of the Art of Astrology" by Al Biruni.

A planet can be besieged for another two (malefics or benefics):

A) corporally (in the same sign)

B) by rays (aspects)

C) by sign (planets in sign 1 surrounded by others in signs 12 and 2).

It should also be taken into consideration that in hellenistic astrology, the aspects also include whole sign aspects, therefore a planet can be surrounded by degree-based aspects and by whole-sign rays (B), and surrounded by sign-house (C).

As usual, there are many variations like the mixed besiegement (bodily and ray) and the "containment" (when a single planet encloses another by its sign-based rays).

Ben Ezra also speaks about it: "benefic or malefic planet in the sign preceding... and another in the following sign". The concept of being enclosed by malefics or benefics is very old and can be found in hellenistic astrology too (Antiochus, Porphyry). Also the idea of an angle (ASC) being enclosed (Porphyry).

In the chart above, Venus in detriment is enclosed by the rays of the malefics, but Jupiter intervenes with a trine. Given that: one of the rays is a sextile (not square nor opposition) from the sect mate domicile lord (reception) and the intervention by the Great Benefic from its domicile, the result is not so bad for Venus. You can expect a lot of help and protection on the part of Jupiter.

Curiously, the concept was modernized by Alexandre Volguine ("La Signification des encadrements dans l'horoscope" / "Los Encuadramientos del Sol, la Luna y los √Āngulos"). Volguine says that the luminaries, ASC and MC are "framed" by the preceding planet (in modern meaning, hence Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are also included) and the following whichever the distance: he only takes into account the sequence. For example, in the chart above the ASC is "framed" by the Moon and Jupiter, Jupiter is "framed" by the Moon and Saturn, and so on. The interpretation that Volguine suggest is similar to that of midpoints.

I learned this easy method before the traditional and I like it, but obviously in an open system, like modern astrology, the big problem is that the new additions (planets, asteroids, etc.) distort the result.

(I'm not English-speaking: apologize for any mistakes).
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Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi paris,

thanks for your comments.. your english is very good, in spite of it not being your first language!

it is a shame Alexandre Volguine's work is not better known by astrologers generally speaking.. i recently read thru the one book i have of his 'lunar astrology' which is quite good.. i have another book which addresses this idea of planets in containment, appropriately titled 'planets in containment' and written by john sandbach and ronn ballard.. in the intro they cite volguine's work... they also refer to the east indian astrologers - book was released in 1980 before it became popular to refer to indian astrology as vedic.. and just to be politically correct - east indians are now referred to as south asians here on the westcoast of canada! saying east indian is apparently taboo!

but i digress.. the book on planetary containment's is fairly straight forward in concept.. for example - using this chart at the top, they would read the moon inbetween mars and north node as having a particular influence - probably negative - that would offset the benefit of it being in the sign cancer...

it seems to me there are a lot of ways to work with this idea.. it simplifies the concept of midpoints by removing the concern of aspects, or degrees.. any planet or point can be enclosed... the beauty of my understanding of hellenistic astro is that there are usually some escape routes thanks aspects made to other planets, like you and tanit articulate in your posts on the example chart..

another simple example is midheaven in this chart sandwiched between mercury-venus... this would suggest something positive generally.. perhaps the chart of a songwriter or artist, or someone working with words in an artistic way..

thanks for your comments!
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