13
My understanding is that in ancient times it was held that, in the case of a battle, whichever side initiated the action, threw the first spear, etc., got the first house. The connection with Mars, Aries, etc., is obvious. By the same token the challenger in a duel was given the first house because this individual would presumably be in a pretty combative frame of mind to issue such a challenge. However, when looked at carefully it is easy to see where this might not always be the case. For example, a person might have felt that honor required him to issue a challenge, or he was egged on by his friends, even tho he personally may have known that to do so was tantamount to committing suicide. In that situation there would be considerable doubt as to whether this particular challenger should go in the first.

All this is well and good, but I'm not sure it applies to modern sports. Schedules are decided months in advance by scheduling committees at league headquarters, which is hardly the same thing as some idiot jumping up on his horse and yelling "Charge!".

Putting the favorite in the first is the most logical approach because the favorite is the team with the most self-confidence, a very Aries-like characteristic. So how did the home team get in the first? Because in the great majority of cases the home team is the favorite. The problem is, how do we determine who is the favorite? By the point spread? I very seriously doubt the cosmos knows anything about pointspreads. It's a good approximation, but that's about all. I suspect that the decision as to which team goes in the first is made at a level not accessible to us, so all we can do use the favorite as a good approximation.

Or to use methods which do not use the game chart at all. There are many of these, altho they are not widely used. Game charts are popular because they are easy, even tho they don't work very well.

Bob

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I posted this idea on the traditional forum too and got some responses there too.

I've a much better idea now about the whys of all this.

Ficina, good idea!
The problem is that the start of the game (apparently, I'm genuinely useless with sport) is decided on a coin toss. The problem with that is that it's possible that the first house goes to whoever wins the coin toss.
I'm just going to go with it anyway and use Lord 7 as the home team.

Chart here:
Image

For now I'll assume that the home team are the 7th House and the visiting team is the 1st house.

Man U are Mars and their shirt colour is red. Spurs are white which suits Libra but not only that, their away shirt is black which suits saturn tightly conjunct the ascendant. I have no idea if that's correct btw, I had to ask my step dad.

Mars is more superior to venus and so is most strong.
However mars is cadent. Venus is succedent and combust.

Bonatti says that any planet in aspect with a luminary gains strength by it, here Venus is with Sun so does she gain power from that, considering she's used to being combust like mercury is? I dunno. I'm guessing not.

However Moon is applying to Venus if even only by square and separating from Mars and Bonatti suggests that this shows positive testimony for Venus and not for Mars. Mars has no further help in this horary from any other superior, I'm considering cadent Jupiter to be not helpful enough with an out of sign aspect (and cadent obviously).

Venus has the support of exhalted Saturn (the greatest superior) in her own house, though there is no aspect between them.

All in all Mars is the better planet but the Moon's application to Venus and the presence of a superior in the first house has me think that Spurs will likely take the lead. However I'd expect that it might well be a draw either.

Anyone else wanna take a look? I'm still learning Bonatti's method and he uses lots of weirdly structured sentences so can be hard to follow sometimes.

15
The idea of giving the Asc to the team that starts the conflict, the team that kicks-off is an interesting one that does not seem to have been tried. (I am assuming that they toss a coin for who kicks-off.) Anybody know how we can find out who kicked-off in past matches?

The Saturday Manchester United match is difficult as the significators are confused. Personally I use the Asc as the home/favourite and Dsc as the away/underdog team, and usually confine myself to matches where these are in agreement (as here with Man Utd = Asc), the problem is that colour gives Man Utd Dsc :(

Sticking with my usual method and so Man Utd getting the Asc then L1 is Venus conjunct Dsc and so, allowing a few degrees before the cusp as in the next sign we have L1 in H7 favouring the away team. In addition the Moon is in opposition to PoF. We have noted on this forum before that this often indicates that the favourite does not win. Draw or Away? I'm going for an away win, but that is instinct, not astrology :)

16
Personally I prefer the colour method, I attribute ASC or DSC depending on the colours. So far this method proved to be most reliable.
However, if there is only one match it is pretty reliable to place the home team or favourite on ASC. The chart must be radical (agreement between ASC and the lord of hour, preferably also with the day's ), otherwise it is pretty unreliable.

If there are many played at the same time in a relatively narrow location, attributing of ASC or DSC to the teams loses sense. Because it is hardly ever the case when all home or teams or away teams win or lose. Then I attribute significators to the teams only based on the colours, for example, if Capricorn is rising, it is not only a matter of a battle between Saturn and Moon. If one plays in black, dark blue, gray or other smooth dark colours and other in white, it's no problem - the dark is Saturn, the white is Moon.

If there is, for example, pink and orange, one is Venus, the other - Sun.

Look always at the overall picture - if the charts are radical - we can expect the things taking their normal trace - majority of faves win. If nonradical, you can expect more surprises than on average.

Regarding MU - Spurs, the chart is radical - Taurus rising with Venus as the lady of hour. However, the hour soon changes to Mercury still retaining the chart radical. According to the colour method MU, playing in red, is DSC. Spurs, playing in light blue (see away kit for 2010/2011), are Venus.
Venus, L1 and hour, is combust, though angular but about to set. Mars is her dispositor. I noticed whenever you have a significator of a team the dispositor of the lord of hour, that team wins.
However, you must be carefull when the lady of hour is combust and retrograde. I have noticed that a bad position of the lord of hour usually favours the underdog.

As we see from the statistics Tottenham has not beaten MU in Old Traford for 20 years. There have been 16 wins 3 draws.
I dare to think that the retrogradity of Venus, L1 and hour, suggests that the past is going to continue.

Regards
Janis Valkovskis

17
GB wrote:The idea of giving the Asc to the team that starts the conflict, the team that kicks-off is an interesting one that does not seem to have been tried.
It's certainly been discussed in the past. While logical, it's somewhat impractical for sports like football because it's quite likely you'll never know who kicks off. You would have to watch the game on TV or an online live stream (presuming you are able to access these) and not all games are televised anyway. Live radio and text commentaries won't necessarily report who kicks off. From a betting point of view it's a nuisance because you can't place a bet until after the game has started. However, for sports where the 'initiating' team is known in advance, it's fine.

Paul, the link you've given to the chart for the ManU game doesn't seem to work but from what you've said in your analysis, it would appear you are using a different chart. :-?

18
Re ManU/Spurs, giving the Asc to home team, L1 Venus partile conjunct Desc is a strong testimony for ManU but unfortunately Venus is in the degree of the nodes and I have noticed over the past few weeks that this indicates a loss. However, that's based on my alternative (colour) method, so not sure if it applies in the Asc/Desc, L1/L7 scenario.

An emplacement testimony usually conquers all but the nodal thing might mess it up. If pushed for a prediction, then I'd go for ManU but I'll be keeping my money in my pocket!

Using the alternative method, ManU would be Mars (red) and it will be interesting to see if the red teams generally do better now Mars is in Sag. On the whole they did not do well while Mars was in Scorpio and only managed to win when they were odds-on faves at home. Given that Mars is dignified in Scorpio, this was surprising and I thought of several possible explanations, one being that Mars doesn't work well in a cold, wet sign. Hot, dry Sag might be more conducive, we shall see....

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Oops you're right Ficina! I used 5.30 am rather than 5.30 pm!!

Okay so..

Just going to continue using bonatti's method.
Man Utd are Scorpio Descendant and therefore Mars which is angular in its own house.
Spurs are Venus: combust, retrograde and in the house of their enemies. Venus gains no help from any other superior planets.

Quite clearly Mars, Man Utd are the winners. They have all the strength in this chart and even have a luminary in their house as well to help things along.

Eeek, the total opposite of what I said before! Thanks for pointing out the wrong time Ficina!

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Yup! Does anyone know who won the coin toss though? Just wondering if it was the coin toss that was important or if it was the automatic assignation of the home team to the descendant?

Will try again for another game as soon as I find out when they are.

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and i use the "sun rise" method to decide who is who.

if the city of the home team takes the sun light first i take H1 or the guest team's city takes it first i prefer H7.

just a suggestion:)
Last edited by tazekahve on Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hi from Istanbul:)