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Yes, I still have your paper, Therese (thanks for reminding me of it). I did read it, but as I recall it dealt largely with the issue of elements connected with the triplicities, which is something I never consider myself. (I do occasionally consider the symbolism inherent in the sign images, according to which both Aquarius and Pisces, for instance, are connected with water. This is also something that you occasionally see Hellenistic authors do. But I only use it in a very concrete sense, e.g., relating a flooding accident to watery signs.)

I do see your point about there not being two ecliptics, but I am perhaps less inclined to believe that the standard modern descriptions of the tropical signs (say, from the second half of the 19th century onwards) were based predominantly on observation. In any case, my approach revolves largely around rulerships (primarily of signs and terms), so when I look at a chart with a Libra/Scorpio Asc, I am more interested in what Venus or Mars is doing in the chart than in whether the native's personality seems more 'airy' or 'watery'. And I do find traditional rulerships to work very much better in a sidereal zodiac.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

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Martin Gansten wrote:
Yes, I still have your paper, Therese (thanks for reminding me of it). I did read it, but as I recall it dealt largely with the issue of elements connected with the triplicities, which is something I never consider myself...

...In any case, my approach revolves largely around rulerships (primarily of signs and terms), so when I look at a chart with a Libra/Scorpio Asc, I am more interested in what Venus or Mars is doing in the chart than in whether the native's personality seems more 'airy' or 'watery'. And I do find traditional rulerships to work very much better in a sidereal zodiac.
The entire point of my paper was to show that the sidereal triplicities are very much related to ruling and exalted planets plus Hellenistic triplicity lords rather than to the so-called elements used in the tropical zodiac. Orientation and type reference Aristotle; planetary traits reference Ben Dykes' translations, both discussed in the paper. Here is a triplicity example:

The HOT Sidereal Trigon Signs are Aries, Leo, Sagittarius.
(Ecliptic area of Tropical Earth signs)
Hot is composed of:
Active orientation: motivation and creative energy drawn from within (the psychological
mainframe). Sidereal Active people are self-contained and self-motivated. They depend on their
own judgement and inner strength, and may be seen as “introverted??? because they generally don’t
seek advice or support from others.
Masculine type: mental orientation, use of the mind (non-emotional)

Triplicity lords which influence these three signs:
Sun by day: light, splendor, reason and intellect, loftiness of mind, strength, victory, fame,
greatness, supremacy of first place, power, forcefulness, appetite for a kingdom and assets
Jupiter by night: regal, powerful, generous, happy, humorous, firm, wisdom and intellect, sharpness of mind, bold, esteem from others, respect and a kingdom, good fortune, praiseworthy, attainment and victory

Example chart:
William Harrah (Sun, Mercury in Leo, Moon in Sagittarius) Gambling czar who founded Harrah’s casinos. Harrah always aimed for the biggest and best, but in person is a shy and soft spoken perfectionist. (Note these are traits given to tropical Virgo, but align with the character of the Hot sidereal trigon.)

The ancient Greeks equated heat and warmth with life and emotions such as joy and relief.
Aristotle considered Hot to be male and superior, and associated these with courage and intelligence. (Lloyd 1964: 103). From the astrological point of view, this trigon of signs is the most “masculine??? (mental orientation, self-determined, use of will power) of the four.

These signs have no domicile or trigon rulership or exalted planets of feminine (Venus, Moon) or even neutral (Saturn, Mercury) polarity. These three signs are wholly signs of the Sun and Jupiter. For reasons described below, Mars whose domicile is Aries was not associated with this trigon of Hot signs in Hellenistic astrology.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

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I'm sorry if I misremembered your argument, Therese. I don't think elements were historically tied up with the tropical zodiac (Valens, who used a zodiac offset from the equinox, mentions them while Ptolemy doesn't), but I agree that triplicity rulers were much more important than elements in premodern and early modern astrology. They were used in the western tropical tradition too, though, which illustrates the problems with trying to reconcile the two zodiacs: one might argue that the qualities that modern tropicalists ascribe to Taurus are largely the qualities of (sidereal) Aries, but does that part of the ecliptic belong to the triplicity of the Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn or to that of the Moon, Venus, and Mars? Which rulers should one focus on in predictive work?

Personally, I don't feel irreconcilability is necessarily a problem. On the contrary, seeking out those cases where the differences between the two systems are at their greatest can be very helpful in deciding which one gives the consistently most reliable results.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

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(Short closing comment about the reason I was fascinated with the professional athletic performances as elite gymnastic of the earlier posted chart of Bruno Liljefors, was that I have seen a similar cosmic state of mars, in another chart before. The same is true in the chart of the last centuries most famous hatha yogi (physical yoga): BKS Yiengar central in the rise of physical yoga in the west.

Just as Liljefors have his Mars in sidereal exaltation in Capricorn in the chart + in the navamsha chart + in the drekkana chart.

The same is true for the last centuries perhaps most famous hatha yogi (physical yoga).

BKS Yiengar
Saturday, December 14, 1918, 3:00 AM
Bellur, Kolar District (India)
(source mountain astrologer).
Image

For James: Iyengars mars is in 4th house in weak Digbala.)

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A planet in the first nav??ṃśa (0°00′–3°20′) of Capricorn will necessarily be in the drekk??ṇa (and the sapt??ṃśa, for that matter) of Capricorn as well. On average, Mars will spend a week in that nav??ṃśa; when it is retrograde or slow, considerably longer. I wouldn't predict athletic skills for everyone born during such a period.

(Please note that the name is Iyengar, as correctly given at the end of your post.)
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

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Yes, I agree such predictions would not be a good idea. But good potential could be indicated.

For fun I googled the date. 14 dec 1918
Famous Birthdays
B.K.S. Iyengar, Indian yoga advocate, born in Bellur, Kolar district, Kingdom of Mysore (d. 2014)
James T. Aubrey, American television executive (President of the CBS television network 1959-65), born in LaSalle, Illinois (d. 1994)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_T._Aubrey
https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities ... -thomas-jr

the tall, athletic Aubrey


He graduated in 1941 and entered the United States Army Air Forces. Aubrey rose to the rank of major and taught military flying to actor James Stewart, who was a licensed civilian pilot
At Princeton, Aubrey was on the football team, playing left end. The New York Times Magazine described Aubrey as "6-foot 2-inch with an incandescent smile

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stefan, martin and therese

thanks for the commentary.. i plan on replying, but i have to sort it out how i want to respond first.... but i would like to also say that i would like to keep the focus on digbala, as opposed to an exercise in arriving at what is the REALLY REALLY TRUE BEST etc. etc. ZODIAC...

back later with some relevant commentary. ( hopefully!).. thanks james

okay - have decided i am going to start a new thread with a slightly different twist... i hope it will address some of the issues that have been raised with stefans commentary here - "The dignities of the sidereal zodiac with the exaltation and debilitation's is very powerful imo."
and ..." Iyengars mars is in 4th house in weak Digbala." i don't see any data for this person you mention stefan... you mention a few other examples - BKS Yiengar and Bruno Liljefors, but i see no chart or overview on lyengars.. thanks..

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thanks martin.. it is no big deal... feel free to move this thread and the new one i started to the indian astrology section too.. i haven't been thinking about how these 2 forums - sidereal and indian are different..

thanks for clarifying stefans example for me... here is his chart with a page on him from wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._K._S._Iyengar

Image


i am just turning on my other computer to see what the shadbala looks like for Iyenggar..this might be a good way to get at a better understanding of digbala..

i am looking at the strengths of his chart via jagannatha hora astro software... mars isn't particularly strong - somewhere in the middle of the pack according to the overall picture i get off shadbala.... so perhaps digbala is only one of a series of considerations and not one to lean heavily on? it seems Iyengar scores higher with jupiter and mercury which makes sense given his educational outreach to the world with yoga as his focal point... perhaps the way that he has expressed his energy is more to do with teaching and education then an emphasis on the physical as implied by a really strong mars...

anyone have any more thoughts on this? thanks... james

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Hi James,

Somehow the program I use (Shri Jyoti Star) gives mars as the planet with the highest Shadbala.

Don't know if the programs can have different settings for the calculation ?

Image

It is also a Ruchaka yoga. Mars in an kendra in exaltation or own sign.
This is repeated from chandra lagna (moon as ascendant).

This dominance of mars in terms of dignity and vargottama exaltation state is probably overriding the weak Digbala by mars.

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stefan,

i had to turn on the other computer to take a look again at jhora software and the shadbala scores.... they are different then what is generated by sjs... although mars scores highest in certain areas that are visible in jhora, i note venus shows as the weakest and sun is much stronger in jhora... unfortunately i am unable to copy and paste the view i get from the software.... my impression is there are different shadbala results, without my fully knowing what all the different types of balas are... if i just look at % strengths given on one of the pages it reads as follows...

sun % 116 shadbala numbers are given as 350
moon % 113.................................................408
mars 129 ....................................................387
mercury 105.............................................442
jupiter 114.................................................445
venus 89....................................................295
saturn 109 .................................................329

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James,

I get the same results as you when ignoring the Shadbala graph in my program and instead looking at the table with numbers. It seems like the graph is not working in SJS program.