Fame analysis - Malefic in detriment

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Hello, everyone.

A little help with this chart is appreciated since the delineation doesn’t seem to match the reality.

The chart is of an youtube/digital influencer of certain fame (certainly more than that of an ’ordinary’ person). His channel has 20k+ subscribers and more than 2k+ daily views of videos posted by him on a daily basis. So I consider that to be fame.

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However, upon analyzing the 10th house of fame, I was a little bit shocked to see its Lord Mars in detriment in the 4th house.

I know that accidentally it is well placed, but that essential debility made me need to review the theory (and this is why I’m asking your help here).

It is my understanding that a significator in detriment won’t be able offer what it promises, and this doesn’t seem to be the case, as stated.

Besides that, since the significator here is a malefic in detriment, some astrologers would say that its malefic effects are even worse, and we could expect all the worse qualities being manifested (all the more so because it is in a 4th house).

I don’t remember who (maybe Frawley?), but someone compared essential and accidental dignities to different kind of people in different job positions in a company. A debilitated malefic in an angular house would be a very bad person with a lot of power to do harm (like a bad person acting as the president of the company). If this is to be the case, we could predict this youtuber would suffer the distruction and downfall of his fame or would use his fame in a very wrong way. Of course we don’t know the future, but he’s been working with that for more than seven years and nothing of the case seemed to have happened - on the contrary, he seems to be very liked (by fans but also other people), doesn’t seem to get into trouble, polemics or "bad" things and it seems, therefore, to have a very good reputation and fame.

So to make it short: how can this Mars be read having the above in consideration? On the theory review part, due to its detriment should I consider it to be weak, evil or both? And finally, if weak, how to explain the fame? Should we say it could be bigger were not thar Mars (it seems an odd explanation to me)? If evil, how to explain that it hasn’t manifested like that? Should we say it will sometime in the future (using prediction techniques)?

Thank you very much for your input
Yair Alon
Kabbalist

2
Hello,

My 2 cents... (why 2 - well just because there are 2 malefics... hehe):

First and foremost, I don't think we should use the essential planetary nature when judging the house that it rules. For example, one should not automatically say that a native's finance is bad just because the second house is ruled by a malefic. Imagine that a native has Aquarius 2nd House. One should not automatically say that his finance is bad just because it is ruled by a malefic (Saturn). We only say that Saturn rules this native's second house specifically because Saturn rules Aquarius generally - and that's it. Whether or not finance is going to be good or bad, is determined from the essential and accidental conditions of the ruler.

My own take in delineating the malefics:
1. The essential malefics are Saturn and Mars.
2. The worse of the two malefics is the one contrary to the sect (in this case, it would be Saturn as this is a nocturnal) chart.
3. The malefics will project their maleficence to the 4 signs (and whatever planet/lot/point in the signs) namely the sign the malefic is in, the sign opposite the malefic and the two signs that are square to the malefic. HOWEVER, if one of these 4 signs are the signs that the malefic rule by domicile or exaltation, then it will not harm it by virtue of reception.

In the example you gave, let us assume we cut corners and take the ruler of the tenth house as this person's career planet. Even if it is not, ruler of the tenth house is still the one that predicts the native's impact to the world at large (being the house of the public).

The Lord of the tenth house is Mars. Does this mean that tenth house is going to be bad. No, not necessarily. It only tells us that this person's ruler of the tenth is Mars. From this, we kind of know that if this person is going to make impact to the world at larger, it will be to spring out something new (Aries is Spring). Will the promise of the house be fulfilled? We look if Mars aspects the tenth house. In this case, it does! Hence, there is fulfillment - alas by opposition. Now Mars when opposing a house, should damage the house. But in this case the house that it opposes is his own house by domicile. Hence, it does not damage it by virtue of reception. But then it is in detriment! This must say something! Yes it does. In terms of profession, this means that the profession will be an "alternative" or non-mainstream spread through the air (Libra is Air sign) and most probably done more at home as Libra is the the fourth house.

The term of the profession planet will tell us how skillful is the person in his/her professional environment and also who they are. In this case, Mars is in Venus' term. Hence, we would imagine that the native is relatively creative in his line of work and his/her correspondences and clients will be probably women or those who are into Venusian work. This is more so that Venus sextiles Mars

The face of the profession planet usually gives us the way that the profession materializes or how it will be seen by others. In this case, Mars is in the face of Jupiter. Others will see it as something full of optimism and they will see it also on "air" as Jupiter is in Aquarius.

So, if Mars is not where we look to whether the tenth will be successful/good or not (we look at Mars as only ruler of the tenth), where then is the indication of the "success" of the tenth? We look to the condition of the tenth house ruler. As mentioned, Mars being detrimental is not really bad provided that the native does things that are alternative or non-mainstream. But will Mars be successful if he does this? Yes! Because Mars is in trine with the greater benefic Jupiter. So, as long as Jupiter is active via predictive method, his Mars is going to be favorable... In fact, both benefics aspects Mars and tenth house via good aspects!!!

I usually look at fame using a different algorithm and it is difficult to do this by looking at the chart (it's already challenging for me trying to determine the degrees of some of the planets, from the diagram ...).

and of course God knows better..!

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The native has 2nd lord Sun as an exaltation lord of the 10th and beholds the 10th via trine. In traditional astrology the 2nd is often viewed as a significant house for profession and the Sun as a luminary can suggest fame. It has more positive control over that house since it has triplicity dignity.

I think the strongest argument for a YouTuber though is the ascendant lord in Virgo in the 3rd and it sextiles Sun. The native's focus in life would be to communicate to others and also things like maybe health and self improvement, or daily mundane things (Virgo). This tends to be especially true with the Moon as ascendant lord, IMO because the Moon lords the chart but also the mind and body. A luminary in the 3rd could also make communications a source of possible public attention. Where your luminaries are can be an area made more public. Obviously, his fame is not very strong anyway with only 20k subscribers. That is mediocre as far as YouTube viewing goes.

I would probe more about their parents and see if Mars represents an early separation of a parent, etc. Malefics in the 4th can in general suggest a disruptive upbringing too. Mars separates, especially when in a cardinal sign, angular and poorly dignified. The native may leave home at an early age, etc. This makes domesticity difficult in general too. Also, as lord of the 10th it could be that they change jobs frequently so you have to wonder how committed they are to this YouTube venture.

Keep in mind too that Jupiter trines Mars and receives it, although from a difficult house. The benefics can help mitigate malefics. Jupiter in the 8th might be a better result working with others in his career, such as a spouse or partner. In a fixed sign it would also add some stability most likely.

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Just some thoughts. For the success in generally beside of 10th house should be main luminary considered, and here in nocturnal chart Moon is main luminary in 3rd is in house of its joy - not the least thing considering fame in the field of communications for an "youtube/digital influencer". Also Moon in own triplicity - adding some essential dignity. Though, the Moons dispositor Mercury sits at the last degree of sign - evidence that fame might be not lasting...

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Thanks astrojin, Tanit333 e Yuriy for the feedback, I will give detailed impressions below, but for me it doesn’t still explains the detriment Mars as Lord of 10. All the three answers have in someway deviated from the main problem and have shown other reasons why there may be fame in the native’s case.

What made some sense to me is what both astrojin and Tanit noticed, the trine with Jupiter. Maybe this "breaks" a lot of the effects of detriment Mars, giving him some power.

My detailed impression:
astrojin wrote: First and foremost, I don't think we should use the essential planetary nature when judging the house that it rules.
Correct, very good reminder. I am aware of that. My point was only what about a malefic in detriment. Not that Mars or Saturn will indicate the matters of the house will be bad.
astrojin wrote:Will the promise of the house be fulfilled?
That’s the point for me. Your delineation was very accurate and precise, astrojin. All you said applies to the native, but when it comes to techniques I got the impression that you were using more of a personal method (although based on hellenistic approaches) than traditional rules. I’ve always learned that to see if the promise of the house will be fulfilled you must see the essential and accidental strenght/weakness of the planet.

You seem to look for aspects as signs of fulfilled promisses. And to say that an opposition to the Lord’s house fulfills promises seems very odd. Is this the hellenistic approach or some other authority?

The same applies to detriment. You see that as an indication of "alternative" or "non-mainstream" career... I never saw that put like that (even though you were dead on, as I said).

I would like to know how you look at fame, if you’re ok with sharing it. Or if you want I can give you the chart in a better format for you.
Tanit3333 wrote: I would probe more about their parents and see if Mars represents an early separation of a parent, etc. Malefics in the 4th can in general suggest a disruptive upbringing too. Mars separates, especially when in a cardinal sign, angular and poorly dignified. The native may leave home at an early age, etc. This makes domesticity difficult in general too. Also, as lord of the 10th it could be that they change jobs frequently so you have to wonder how committed they are to this YouTube venture.
Tanit, your delineation was very good too. Regarding the quoted text above, I asked the native and he says nothing of that applies. There was no separation of either parent and he had a happy upbringing. The native is 34 years old and still lives with his parents (by the way, working from home, as astrojin) said. As for the job change, unfortunately it also doesn’t apply. As I said in my OP, he’s been working with youtube for seven years now (I consider that to be minimally stable) and before that he had only one other job (he was a language teacher - private, working from home). There are no plans for him to change career in the next years, he likes what he does.
Yuriy wrote: For the success in generally beside of 10th house should be main luminary considered.
Thanks for the reminder, Yuriy. Absolutely right. I was just wondering about the Mars itself. Is it enough for luminaries to be good to "overcome" the position of the Lord of 10th? I guess not.
Yair Alon
Kabbalist

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Yair Alon wrote:
Yuriy wrote: For the success in generally beside of 10th house should be main luminary considered.
Thanks for the reminder, Yuriy. Absolutely right. I was just wondering about the Mars itself. Is it enough for luminaries to be good to "overcome" the position of the Lord of 10th? I guess not.
Well, don't worry too much about Mars detriment in sign, its angular and below horizon in nocturnal chart - not at all bad for Mars itself. If malefic planet signify something in horoscope (money, success) the nature is less important, important essential end accidental qualities.
Also by Ezra the second triplcity ruler of sign at MC tells about highest rank, success possible to achieve. You have Jupiter second ruler of fire sign at 8th cusp in mutual reception with Saturn in 5th which is also ruler of 7th, partner.
With 8th-7th-5th involved the key might be in partnership, partner's money, some stock market or gambling things...

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this is just for fun as a comparison... i have a nephew who has close to 130,000 subscribers to his youtube channel.. i don't think of him as famous, but he has gotten some traction thanks all the subscription numbers...they sent him a plaque when he reached 100,000 subscriptions... maybe this is what constitutes fame in the world of today...i am unable to see it myself....

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Hello Yair,

Thanks for the feedback, appreciated it!

In general, you are right in saying that many of the methods that I used are "personal" methods but I am not totally (and should not be) credited with some of the techniques. I am a person who likes to read a lot of books and then after looking at the many techniques, I will usually think deeply about the astrological reasoning behind those techniques and admit only those that are astro-logical. With this adaptation and creativity definitely comes into practice. Then, and only then, I test these techniques for confirmation. So, sometimes these techniques look rather different from the common techniques.
My point was only what about a malefic in detriment
I would say that a non-dignified malefic is bad onto others especially when it is contrary to the sect (Hellenistic). Onto others means that the negative effects are felt by others when the malefic conjuncts, opposes or squares the signs the others are in except the signs that the malefic rule due to reception (Medieval).
I’ve always learned that to see if the promise of the house will be fulfilled you must see the essential and accidental strength/weakness of the planet.

You seem to look for aspects as signs of fulfilled promisses.
I learnt the doctrine of fulfillment through primary motivation (medieval), rulers of the chart (hellenisic), hyleg/alchocoden determination (hellenistic and medieval), etc. and I find this to be astro-logical and also stands to empirical observations. However, this applies for non-planetary entities i.e. sign when it is operative as a house or Lot. So, for the promise of a house or Lot to be fulfilled, we look whether the lord of the sign of the house/Lot aspects the sign of the house/Lot. Does this mean that the there is nothing happening when a house ruler does not aspect the house? No! Things still happen but if there is no fulfillment, then things happen outside the native's control and this is usually (but not necessarily) to the disadvantage of the native unless there are indications otherwise. Example: ruler of the second house is in the first - there is no aspect = no fulfillment which means the native does not have much control over the making of wealth but still money comes to him in ways that are not within his/her absolute control.


The essential and accidental conditions of the ruler of the house will provide us the description of how the house should be realized (IF it is realized). Say domicile and exaltation ruler of second house do not see the second house. Hence, money is not realized through the hands of the native (money can still come from other means, maybe through Lot of Fortune, etc.). However, if the ruler of the second house aspects the house and the ruler is in Fall, money will be realized but it will also be lost.
And to say that an opposition to the Lord’s house fulfills promises seems very odd. Is this the hellenistic approach or some other authority?
In a way, it is medieval; Bonatti did say that perfection (to give a horary example) can happen with reception as it is the ruler of the house that opposes the house, (though your example is natal but the concept is there...).
The premise is, "I can still manage my house as long as I see my house". The only thing is that when a domicile ruler opposes its house, it is managing from the most distant place, hence, there will be difficulties but realization can still happen. Example: ruler of the second in the eighth... there is fulfillment (by opposition). So, the native could make money through death (undertaker?), money lending business (loan sharks if negative??), etc. The opposition describes the surrounding "difficulties" but it might also mean making money through others money and difficulties.
The same applies to detriment. You see that as an indication of "alternative" or "non-mainstream" career... I never saw that put like that (even though you were dead on, as I said).
This is also adapted (with embellishment) from Bonatti. If a planet in its own domicile is like a King in his castle, then a planet in detriment is like a person in foreign country whose culture is very different or even contradicts his own culture and beliefs. Now, translating that in modern world a planet in its own domicile is like a person who is really successful in the elements surrounding him whereas a planet in detriment is like the "one odd out" which is equivalent in saying "alternative" or non-mainstream". I have tested this interpretation and (like u said), it is "dead on" many times... Now imagine an ancient astrologer who sees a detriment planet indicating sexuality.. chances are, this will be interpreted as "bad" because "alternative" sex is bad (well ... within the social mares of the time!)... Hence, I find detriment as alternative or non-mainstream is much more "useful" interpretation.
I would like to know how you look at fame, if you’re ok with sharing it. Or if you want I can give you the chart in a better format for you.
Of course...(if I am free...hehehe). I usually look at fame in a slighly different way but I can share my thoughts. If I have the details of the birth chart, I can easily transferred it to my Excel file where I have already programmed my own algorithms in...

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james_m wrote:i have a nephew who has close to 130,000 subscribers to his youtube channel.. i don't think of him as famous,
Very interesting case, James. Maybe the problem is the concept of fame itself. My logic is, as I said in the OP, based on what most people would experience. For me, to have 20k or 130k people subcribed to your publications (whatever kind) and willing to hear your message is a kind of fame. An "ordinary"/"average" person maybe will not "contact" 130k people ever during his whole lifetime, let alone spread his message and content to that amount of people.

Astrojin, I am the one that appreciated your further clarification. Thanks a lot. I will drop you a private message with the chart data, ok? If you want to put that in your Excel. I am very interested in you "sharing your thoughts" :-) Thanks!
Yair Alon
Kabbalist

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Hi Yair,
Let me write something before I get too busy doing my mainstream work which I expect I going to occupy my relatively uninteresting existence with the pursuit of money for everyday living…

As I mentioned before, I would look into fame using a different algorithm. When I said this, I meant the determination of fame in general. When I read a natal chart, one specific area that I look at (amongst others) is prominence. Prominence itself may come as eminence i.e. the social/political standing e.g. the kings and generals of ancient times and CEOs and presidents of modern times, etc. or prominence may appear in the form of fame/notoriety i.e. celebrities that people adore/like e.g. actors/actresses, artists, etc.

In addition, I also look at the indication of prominence when delineating specific topics such as profession (is his/her profession prominent?), parents (are his/her parents prominent?), marriage/relationship (is his/her significant other going to raise him/her in social hierarchy?), etc. AND this is what I am going to do in this post continuing with Mars as Lord of tenth house.

To delineate this specific type of prominence, I would also look into the connection of the indicator to the fixed stars, benefics, luminaries (esp. luminary of the sect), relevant Lots and some other supportive things.

As stated in the previous post, the meanings of Mars as lord of 10th, Mars in the 4th house, Mars aspecting the 10th house, Mars in detriment, Mars in the term/bounds of Venus, Mars in the face/decan of Jupiter have all been discussed. Now if we have say, discussed what needs to be discussed about Mars as Lord of tenth, I would then look at how powerful is this Mars.

1. Fixed stars: Mars is conjunct the fixed star Spica (alpha-Virgo) and this star is known as the star of brilliance indicating one with a gifted talent which makes it very prominent and appropriate to be connected to a tenth house ruler. BTW, I only admit the use of conjunctions for fixed stars that lie closely on the ecliptic and Spica is one of them.

2. Connection with benefics: both benefics aspect the ruler of the tenth (Mars) AND the tenth house! Jupiter trines Mars and sextiles tenth house while Venus sextiles Mars and trines tenth house. If we were to use Hellenistic concept, the “better??? benefic is the benefic of the sect, and in this case, it is Venus (nocturnal chart), Venus not only aspect Mars but she also receives Mars by domicile and term.

I would say that the two above are enough to indicate prominence with Mars but we could continue just to see other supportive indications.

3. Connection to luminaries (esp. luminary of the sect): His luminary of the sect happens to be Moon and Moon indicates the public in general. So, if your tenth ruler is connected to Moon, then there is an indication of the “praxis??? (what you do) with the public in general and a degree of success shall be observed. It is interesting to see that Moon does not aspect Mars but Moon and Mars are in the signs that are of equal rising (or contra-antiscion). This is interesting as he does not see (read “aspect???) his clients directly but is still connected to them via something else…

4. Connection to Lots: I also look at the three Lots that indicate prominence and eminence namely Lot of Spirit, Lot of Fortune and Lot of Exaltation. Mars is conjunct Lot of Fortune and Mars (being the Lord of tenth) is also the Lord of the Lot of Spirit. This is called handing over and it is an indication of some degree of prominence.

This is how I would analyze a significator (a planet) to see whether its signification indicates prominence (well… roughly anyways…)

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Hi James (and Yair too!):

I am looking at the chart of your nephew:
Again, we just cut a few corners and simply at tenth house.
Tenth house (whole sign) is Gemini, ruler is Mercury in Libra… both tenth house and its ruler are in air signs – this indicates communication is strongly connected to his profession and/or his connection with the public. With Mercury also ruling the first, this shows strongly that his profession is connected to him doing it directly and doing Mercurial thing!

The interesting thing the lord of tenth is also conjunct the fixed star Spica just like Yair’s chart!