natural vs accidental rulership 1 by siraxi I've come across this situation lately several times: a relationship question with the Ascendant/Descendant axis in Venus/Mars ruled signs. There is the natural rulership Venus=woman, Mars=man, and there is also the accidental rulership - AS ruler=the person asking the question, DS=the person inquired about. In all the cases that I saw lately, the woman was represented by Venus (both as natural and accidental ruler) and the man by Mars. I said wow and moved on. But now I wonder what would be the situation like, if the woman would be represented naturally by Venus and accidentally by Mars, and the reverse for the man. Wouldn't it confuse things ? Did you actually meet such cases? How did you treat them ? I suppose that a woman represented (accidental rulership) by Mars would be martian, masculine by aspect/manifestation. Also, I've read that the accidental rulership takes over the natural rulership in horary charts. But I've seen many horary astrologers using both the natural and the accidental rulers in their interpretations and I wonder what will I be supposed to do when I'll eventually come across a horary with reversed accidental rulership. Quote Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:41 am
mars venus 2 by yuzuru hello, siraxi Yes, I know, "men are from mars, women are from venus" :-) i also got quite a few in this axis, and I remember a few times when roles reversed. Unfortunately I don?t have a final answer for you, why this happens. I don?t think is because the woman is "marcian", or at least it doesn?t fit the profile I remember. I think the stars don?t have so many ways to tell us the truth, as astral configurations take a time to change... so I would think that maybe mars was the only planet who could "impersonate" the status of the querent. My 2 cents Yuzuru Quote Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:41 pm
3 by MarkF You also would want to look at the essential dignity or debility of the significators to find out more about the characters of the people who are involved. A well dignifed Mars means a person who is brave, aggressive, courageous, bold and strong. A poorly dignifed Mars means someone is cruel, rash, bloodthirsty and violent. This applies to both men and women. I wouldn't get too hung up on this natural significator thing. If the querent is a woman and the ASC ruler is Mars or Venus, so be it. I'd look to the sign, i.e., is it fixed, mutable, humane, etc. for further info about them. I certainly would never interpret a chart where the woman is Mars as meaning that she was a masculine woman. Mark F Quote Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:38 am
4 by deeptiman Hi, i reply a horary like this months ago. November,01,2004 5:09p.m. S?o Paulo-sp brazil long:46w30 lat:23s30 aSC-11 ARIES. Mars,is lord of the querent(and she is a scorpio )and venus,lord of the 7.Interesting, i used Moon and Sun and my reply was correct.The question: will be reconciliation betweem me and my ex?Moon is apllying to a trine with Sun,but meets venus on the way(square),threfore i conclude that she will fall in love to another guy,no reconciliation, and was correct.If i used Mars and venus i will give the incorrect answer,because Moon translate light between mars and venus(separating trine with mars and applying to square with venus). "Life is a gift,enjoy" Quote Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:18 pm
5 by MarkF Deeptiman and others, The method that I follow is to use the house rulers for the main significators and then the natural rulers as a back up. And I?d stick pretty firmly with using the house rulers as the main significators first. Deeptiman asked this question. The question: will be a reconciliation between my ex and me? If you got the right answer that?s fine, but I can?t follow your path to it. First, since you asked the question, you are the ASC and it?s ruler Mars. Your ex is the 7th house ruler Venus. Mars is in the 7th house, which I read literally as you are into her. However she has mixed feelings. Venus receives both Mars and Jupiter. So she is receptive to two people here, you and another man who is signified by Jupiter. Venus is also in her own sign, so she is in a position of strength here, with two admirers and sufficient strength to not feel torn and helpless. Mars on the other hand is in its fall, so you are in a weak position by being where you are in this relationship. There is no applying aspect between Venus and Mars. That?s like saying that there isn?t much more that is going to happen between the two of you. But there is an applying conjunction between Venus and Jupiter, so you are right about there being another man involved here. He is within 5? of the cusp of the 7th house, and would be considered to be in there. In fact by position alone, it looks like he is closer to her than you are. It also looks like he may like her more than she likes him, based on Jupiter receiving her but she not receiving him. Do you know how this other relationship turned out? If I had to guess, I?d say that she moved on and that whatever happened between them did not last. An update sure would help here. You said: If I had used Mars and Venus, I would have got an incorrect answer, because the Moon translates light between Mars and Venus (a separating trine with Mars and an applying square to Venus). That?s what I don?t see. There is no separating trine with Mars. When the Moon was in a trine with Mars, the Moon was in a different sign than it is now, and we only use the Moon?s aspects in the current sign that it is in. The Moon will make a square with Venus, with the lowest level of mutual reception between them, at the level of face. And then soon after that the Moon will make a square with Jupiter, the other guy. So you came to a tough realization about the woman and her other boyfriend. Personally I wouldn?t use the Sun to represent either yourself or this other guy. The chart seems to work when you use the house rulers for those involved. I might use the natural associations of Jupiter as a way of describing this other guy, such as that he?s a jovial person, or a noble person. That may be but I?m not sure. You could also see him as being described by his house rulership in this chart where he rules the 9th and 12th houses. I think Lilly sometimes uses the Sun to represent the man and Venus to represent the woman in a marriage chart, but this is only secondary to him using the house rulers first. I also wouldn?t make too much out of the fact that in this chart you, the guy, is Mars and she is Venus. What matters more here is that Mars is in its fall while Venus is in her own sign. That tells a lot more about the story. I hope everything went well after this. Mark F Quote Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:37 am
6 by deeptiman Hi Mark,very good explanation helped me a lot in my apprenticeship.But there's a detail...the question was not made BY ME, but by a friend,a woman...SHE IS represented by Mars.And was she that fall in love to another guy...And i think that Lilly used aspects out-of-sign(I've heard this from someone here in skiscript,i will look into the Christian Astrology for a confirmation... ALL THE BEST "Life is a gift,enjoy" Quote Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:20 pm
7 by deeptiman hi fellow Mark Look,how coud she be Mars, and Venus at the same time? Fall in love with another guy is showed in the chart by venus,and was SHE and not the other that has two choices.Makes sense use Moon as her ,and Mars the ex-boyfrend(a separating trine -past) and venus the next guy(a jupterian guy as you appointed).This is another way of look the chart too. "Life is a gift,enjoy" Quote Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:58 pm
house 8 by yuzuru He is within 5? of the cusp of the 7th house, and would be considered to be in there. In fact by position alone, it looks like he is closer to her than you are. It also looks like he may like her more than she likes him, based on Jupiter receiving her but she not receiving him. I have heard that Frawley distinguish between the effects of houses and cusps. Cusp is what is on my mind, house is about power: if the significator of the job is in the cusp of Asc, then I really want the job... if is deep in the first house, then I probably got the job. If this holds true (I really don?t know) then we would interpret as she really cares about Jupiter. Deeptiman, the analysis of Mark seems pretty clear and I think probably true... about out-of-sign aspects, I think Lilly used it sometimes, but, well, he can because he is Lilly :-) He saw a lot of factors and used his instincts... If we are to act like this we need to have a loooot of practice. Yuzuru[/quote] Quote Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:28 pm
9 by deeptiman Hi Yuzuru, ,maybe i was lucky with this horary...but i'm working hard with horary and i have confidance in knowledge,but sometimes luck helps): By the way,she is with her new boyfriend since february.If we look the chart,jupiter will hit seventh house in 3 degrees(3 months) or venus will conjunct jupiter in 3 degrees too. All the best "Life is a gift,enjoy" Quote Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:45 pm
10 by MarkF I'm confused. First you made it sound like you had asked the question, but now you say that it was a friend of yours who asked you the question. That really shouldn't change the reading that much though. Are you also saying that the woman who asked the question, "Will I get back together with my boyfriend?", that she didn't get back together with him, but in fact found a new guy instead? Is that the outcome of the question? Deb has told me on several occasion that people who are new to horary can sometimes use the wrong technique to arrive at the right answer and maybe this is the case. If the situation is as I described it, that a woman asked you if she would get back together with her then current boyfriend, I still would have used Mars and the Moon to represent her, and Venus to represent her boyfriend at the time. I'd also say that it was the guy, Venus, who was in control of the situation and had two women interested in him. I would not use this example as a precedent for other horaries. The basic technique is to use the house rulers for your significators. How coud she be Mars and Venus at the same time? I don't think she can be. We have to start with some pretty strong foundations and one of them would be that we start by using the ASC ruler for the person asking the question. If we throw out that rule and always use Venus for women and Mars for men, then we might as well not bother with using the exact time of the horary, because it is by using the exact time of the question that we get the house rulers and thereby the significators. It also seems that you might be ignoring her original question, which was about this first boyfriend, not her second and current one. She did not get back with this first guy, and from this chart I'd say that it was because there was another woman. Just because the chart shows that she won't get back together with the guy who she wanted when the chart was done doesn't mean that she will never get a new boyfriend. The chart speaks to the issue at hand, the guy who she origininally asked about, not so much about her future love life after the affair ends with the first guy. Again, you may have got the right answer, but I would not use a simple Mars = men, Venus = women formula for any and all charts. At best this is a secondary technique, and not even in every charts. Mark F Quote Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:18 pm
11 by deeptiman Hi Mark,yes,the girl asked me about her ex and after this(3 months)begun another relationship.Thank's for your help.i wil be cautious with horary and maybe there are several years of study waiting me ahead until i grasp the subject. all the best "Life is a gift,enjoy" Quote Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:21 am
master 12 by yuzuru I believe in a year of study you will learn the subject :-) If you wanna master it, then probably will be your whole life, hehehehe. again about significator, think of them like some computer algorithm: first do that, then do 2, then compare to 1, etc. So, there is an order of suspects and an hierarchy. Example A: 1: Take ASC for querent (woman) and DC for quesited (man) 2: Take Venus for the woman and sun for the man 2a: if Venus is ruler of DC, forget 2 Example B: 1 - Take ASC ruler and moon for querent 2 - Take 10th ruler about a job 2a - if 10th ruler is the moon, you can?t take it as co-ruler for the querent I hope it is clearer for you... Yuzuru Quote Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:52 am