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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:17 am Post subject: Re: Thanks 


astralwanderer wrote:  Mark's point about the 'collapse' of Campanus houses at even quite modest latitudes is also a concern for me. However, the following data shows that the difficulties might not quite be quite as challenging as they first seem. Statistically, Porpyry and Campanus offer the same degree of significance (or greater) than Placidus/Gauquelin divisions of the sphere.  This is interesting research data! I know that Gauquelin Sectors are computed using a technique similar to Placidus cusps, and in fact can be approximated with them (see Astrolog's "l0" command switch). It looks like similar techniques can be done with other house systems too.
EdF wrote:  As an aside, I consider these representations as "2D"  two astronomical coordinates are represented. Conventional charts are 1D  only the "longitudinal" coordinate is represented.  You're right, at least when considering a single planet. However, I use the name "3D houses" because it's considering the set of planets in a chart as a whole. A standard chart has all planets placed on the 2D plane of the ecliptic, and ignores their 3D latitudes rising up out of that plane. A 3D chart sphere works with the full 3D model of the planets in space with their different latitudes. _________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:19 pm Post subject: 


As a followup to the above, 3D houses are actually similar to Gauquelin sectors in several respects. Gauquelin sectors are computed based on the rising and setting times of planets, which is similar to 3D houses which are also based on the local horizon. When a planet is above the horizon, it's in Gauquelin sectors 118, and when a planet is below the horizon it's in sectors 1936. That's similar to how when a planet is above the horizon, it's always in the 7th through 12th 3D houses, and when a planet is below the horizon it's always in the 1st through 6th 3D houses. Also, when a planet rises, it moves from Gauquelin sector 36 to sector 1, which is similar to how a planet rising moves from the 1st 3D house to the 12th 3D house. When a planet sets, it moves from Gauquelin sector 18 to sector 19, which is similar to how a planet setting moves from the 7th 3D house to the 6th 3D house.
I've composed the following Web page about 3D houses, which summarizes many of the points made on this thread: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog/ast3d.htm _________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:01 pm Post subject: Astrolog 6.40 


A new version of Astrolog has been released, and the new version 6.40 updates "3D houses" and "chart spheres" in several ways. Transit searches now support 3D houses, and will display when planets ingress into different 3D houses (and due to the 3D geometry, these ingress date/times will differ from all ordinary 2D house systems).
Chart spheres are a good way to visualize 3D houses, however they now have the option to show 2D houses. Therefore they're also a good way to visualize the difference between 2D and 3D houses. Below are two chart spheres side by side, which are identical except the left sphere is using 2D houses, and the right 3D houses.
In the left sphere with 2D houses, planetary latitude is ignored when determining house position, which means the 12 house "orange wedges" share the same poles as the 12 sign "orange wedges". Notice how all 12 houses have areas which are above and below the horizon, which is counterintuitive.
In the right sphere with 3D houses, the 12 house "orange wedges" are aligned with the local horizon, and always have their poles at the north and south points on the horizon. In this model, all of houses 16 are always below the horizon, and all of houses 712 are above the horizon. Because the poles are different, planetary latitude needs to be taken into account to correctly determine house position.
For a comparison not involving chart spheres, below is Astrolog's local horizon display (which is basically a chart sphere so unrolled so it's flat). There are two charts side by side, which are again identical except the left is using 2D houses, and the right 3D houses.
In both of these charts, the middle horizontal line is the horizon, the middle vertical line is the south meridian, the vertical lines on either side of it are the prime vertical passing through the east and west points, and the far edges are the north meridian. The 12 houses are marked by the green dotted lines (and labeled with green numbers), while the ecliptic and the signs of the zodiac are marked by purple dotted lines (and labeled with purple glyphs). Planets are plotted near the ecliptic, and the Ascendant, MC, and house cusps are plotted where they intersect the ecliptic.
Notice how the star Sirius (labeled "Sir") is clearly in the 5th house below the horizon, however with a zodiac position slightly later than the Descendant, all ordinary 2D house systems will place it in the 7th house, making one think it's above the horizon! Similarly, the star Polaris (labeled "Pol") is high in the sky on the meridian and therefore correctly on the 10th cusp, however 2D house systems will place it way down in the 6th house.
Also, chart spheres can now display the astronomical constellations on the surface of the sphere. It can display over 1000 fixed stars at once, and stars are displayed according to their brightness. Star configurations are in expected places: For example, below you can see the Big Dipper at the top of Ursa Major (UMa), with its two forward stars forming a line pointing to Polaris the North Star on the meridian. In Orion you can see Orion's Belt of three stars, and in the upper right of Taurus the tight cluster of stars is the Pleiades. The very bright star in Canis Major (CMa) is Sirius, the brightest star in the sky.
_________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:59 am Post subject: 


The animation above (created using Astrolog 6.50) shows how Campanus house cusps change over time. A standard 2D wheel chart is compared sidebyside to a 3D "chart sphere", with both animating the same chart at the same times.
Campanus houses are defined by dividing the local horizon into 12 equal sized wedges (with the horizon as their "equator"). That's similar to how signs of the zodiac divide the celestial sphere into 12 equal sized wedges (with the ecliptic as their equator). Where the ecliptic intersects these houses defines the 12 Campanus cusps. That means Campanus houses are effectively a 3D version of Equal houses, because house sizes are equal from a 3D standpoint. (That's one argument in favor of Campanus being the "best" house system.) A 2D chart wheel is basically a 2D crosssection of the 3D chart sphere, taken on the plane of the ecliptic.
At high latitudes, Campanus can produce narrower houses (at least when looking at the 2D wheel). As can be seen on the 3D chart sphere, this happens at times when the ecliptic is nearly parallel to the horizon, which causes the ecliptic cross section to slice near the point on the horizon where all the houses meet, which means planets can enter and leave certain houses more quickly.
Notice how the Sun and Pluto are tightly conjunct on the wheel chart, however they're actually a bit farther away from each other in space on the celestial sphere, because their ecliptic latitudes differ. _________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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srsedna
Joined: 22 May 2019 Posts: 20

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:06 pm Post subject: 


It would be great if you could study a bunch of cases to find out whether Pluto is "inactive" or at least less powerful in its conjunctions when it's too far away in ecliptic latitude from the other planet/angle. 

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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:14 am Post subject: 


srsedna wrote:  It would be great if you could study a bunch of cases to find out whether Pluto is "inactive" or at least less powerful in its conjunctions when it's too far away in ecliptic latitude from the other planet/angle.  Yes, this would be interesting to investigate! Pluto moves slowly around its orbit, and therefore times when it's near or far from the ecliptic last for quite a few years, similar to the generational influences of Pluto in each sign.
Pluto most recently crossed the ecliptic in 2018, 1930, and 1770. That suggests the decade surrounding today, the decade surrounding the Great Depression, and the decade leading up to the American Revolution were/are especially strong with respect to Pluto energy. Pluto reached maximum ecliptic latitude (+/17 degrees) in 1839 and 1980, which suggests those decades had minimal influence from Pluto aspects. _________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:53 pm Post subject: Astrolog 7.00 


A new version of Astrolog has been released, and the new version 7.00 features improvements to "3D houses" and "chart spheres". Astrolog now supports multiple systems of 3D houses. The simplest model of 3D houses is what's been described so far. It's formed of 12 equal sized 3D wedges aligned with the local horizon, and is the the 3D model of Campanus. This can also be called "3D Equal houses". (It's only the 2D cross section as displayed in a classic wheel in which Campanus houses appear to be irregularly sized.)
The "3D houses" concept has been extended to generalized 3D versions of all standard house systems: They are defined by great circles drawn from the due South point to the due North point on the local horizon, passing through each 2D cusp where it intersects the ecliptic. 3D Regiomontanus houses can be seen above (which unlike Campanus are different sized wedges, although they're still fixed size over time at a given location). 3D Placidus houses can be seen below (which dynamically change sizes and wobble back and forth over time).
_________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Fadi Mazboudi
Joined: 16 Oct 2017 Posts: 78


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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:55 pm Post subject: 


Thank you for the pointer to this book. It nicely describes the essence of 3D houses, and the limitations of a 2D birthchart display, as seen in the following excerpt (p317318):
"It is important to understand that despite the fact that we can see the birth chart drawn or printed on paper, it is not only two dimensional, but three dimensional. The elements of the birth chart are not found contained on a plane, but in a sphere. For this reason, there are many astronomical positions that we cannot see in an ordinary chart, and that are very important in the interpretation and prediction of a Radix. Therefore, beyond locating the planets in the Zodiac, due to its ecliptic longitude, we must also place them and consider them according to their declinations and latitudes, which could also mean that they are physically found in a different house than where they appear in a two dimensional birth chart. In addition, although placed in an ordinary two dimensional birth chart, the houses appear with different sizes, when in fact they are twelve identical parts of 30 degrees each."
The last sentence above describes "3D Campanus" houses (also known as "3D Equal houses") which are 12 equal sized wedges of 30 degrees each, but which appear different sizes in the 2D cross section of a 2D wheel chart.
Juan Estadella's book also describes Topocentric houses, and claims it's the best system. Note however that Topocentric is a quadrant system like many others (e.g. Placidus, Campanus, and Porphyry) and it only differs from the others in how the minor cusps are calculated. Standard Topocentric as most software computes is a classic 2D house system like all the others, in that only zodiac position longitude is used to determine house system.
Users of Topocentric houses may appreciate "3D Topocentric" in Astrolog (produced by turning on both Topocentric houses and 3D houses) and may find it to be an improvement or refinement of 2D Topocentric. As with other 3D house systems, Astrolog's 3D Topocentric has identical house placement as 2D Tropocentric for objects exactly on the ecliptic, and only differs for objects above or below it. 3D Topocentric will ensure objects above the horizon are never in houses 16, and that objects below the horizon are never in houses 712. _________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Michael Sternbach Moderator
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 Posts: 555 Location: Switzerland

Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:04 am Post subject: 


Hi Walter
That stuff about 3D houses is really awesome... It's easy to imagine how excited Dane Rudhyar would have been about all this!
My only issue with it is that Astrology is not really based on a threedimensional vista but essentially on a fourdimensional one... Which leaves us with Equal Houses as the most appropriate system of them all in my book. Which, BTW, I like to call the Hermetic House system, in line with some of the earlier German authors.
Nevertheless, I follow your demonstrations with interest  in order to really clarify what we are dealing with, if nothing else... _________________ _________________
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https://michaelsternbach.wordpress.com/ 

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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:14 am Post subject: 


Michael Sternbach wrote:  That stuff about 3D houses is really awesome... It's easy to imagine how excited Dane Rudhyar would have been about all this!  Thank you! I understand Rudhyar preferred Campanus houses. However, even those preferring other systems may also appreciate the 3D version of that house system (such as "3D Topocentric" mentioned above).
Michael Sternbach wrote:  My only issue with it is that Astrology is not really based on a threedimensional vista but essentially on a fourdimensional one... Which leaves us with Equal Houses as the most appropriate system of them all in my book.  By "fourdimensional", do you mean 3D space combined with the 4th dimension of time? Indeed, astrology is very much about time and how energies change over time! That's why 3D houses are often presented in animated form, to see their changes over time. However, how does "fourdimensional vista" lead one to conclude that Equal houses is the most appropriate system?
Note there are various different Equal systems, as described in the thread: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10834. Which Equal system do you prefer? This might be a big discussion best had on the other thread! Note that "3D houses" or the 3D model of Campanus is an Equal system too, when looked at in 3D. "3D Campanus" houses are 12 equal sized wedges of the celestial sphere of 30 degrees each, which only appear different sizes in the 2D cross section seen in a 2D wheel chart. That's why another name for 3D Campanus can be "3D Equal houses".
In other words, Campanus is nice because it's both a quadrant system and an Equal system! It effectively bridges the differences between quadrant systems like Placidus, and Equal systems like Whole, taking the best of both worlds. Campanus always has 1st=Asc and 10th=MC like quadrant systems, however it's also an Equal system in which each house covers exactly 30 degrees (when you look at its 3D model). _________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Paul Administrator
Joined: 23 Nov 2009 Posts: 1544

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:21 pm Post subject: 


Cruiser1 wrote:  however it's also an Equal system in which each house covers exactly 30 degrees (when you look at its 3D model). 
Isn't that true of all house systems though? They all cover 30 degrees of something. _________________ "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"  Socrates
https://heavenlysphere.com/ 

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Michael Sternbach Moderator
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 Posts: 555 Location: Switzerland

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:54 pm Post subject: 


Cruiser1 wrote:  Michael Sternbach wrote:  That stuff about 3D houses is really awesome... It's easy to imagine how excited Dane Rudhyar would have been about all this!  Thank you! I understand Rudhyar preferred Campanus houses. However, even those preferring other systems may also appreciate the 3D version of that house system (such as "3D Topocentric" mentioned above).
Michael Sternbach wrote:  My only issue with it is that Astrology is not really based on a threedimensional vista but essentially on a fourdimensional one... Which leaves us with Equal Houses as the most appropriate system of them all in my book.  By "fourdimensional", do you mean 3D space combined with the 4th dimension of time? Indeed, astrology is very much about time and how energies change over time! That's why 3D houses are often presented in animated form, to see their changes over time. However, how does "fourdimensional vista" lead one to conclude that Equal houses is the most appropriate system? 
Walter,
By "fourdimensional", I was referring to an actual 4D space. BTW, that concept was introduced by Cambridge Platonist Henry Moore, even though you could say it was implied already in Plato's famous cave analogy, according to which the world we are seeing is the mere shadow of the archetypal "real" world. And the role that the (neo)Platonic world view played for Astrology throughout the centuries  from Iamblichus to Robert Fludd  is out of the question.
Of course, today higherdimensional space is a common concept in mainstream science, but in my view, it is important to understand the role it plays in Astrology and the other occult sciences as well. Without this concept, there would simply be no rational foundation available for them!
Thus, I am currently preparing a book for publication that explores this topic in depth, includings its mathematical side  from scratch, so any interested person should be able to follow.
Anyway, this is not the place to go into this topic.
For now, let me just emphasize that, as we use the ecliptic (aka the zodiac) as our frame of reference for the planets and pretty much everything else in our delineations, in geometric terms we are employing a circle and a twodimensional plane, respectively. By analogy ("as above, so below"), the Wheel of Houses should then be a circle and a twodimensional plane, respectively, as well, and sure enough, that's how we are treating it in practice, but when it comes to the question of how to calculate it, strangely intricate considerations tend to enter the picture...
In most systems, we first define the beginning of our Wheel as the degree of the Zodiac that rises on the horizon at any given moment, which is straightforward enough  however, the cusp of the 10th house (in all systems save for your basic Equal one) does not coincide with the degree of the Zodiac that has the highest altitude above the horizon (which would be the nonagesimal)  except of course for a brief moment twice a day.
And now we try to shoehorn our basic Zodiaclike conception of a wheel with twelve sectors into that quadrant scheme and end up with something that I had been taught to accept when I started out in Astrology some three decades ago, but that now looks rather distorted and ugly to me. Interestingly, lay people sometimes perceive it that way as well, like that client who, when I showed him his natal chart delineated with Koch houses, spontaneously assumed that there must be something wrong with my computer.
BTW, I elaborated on the reason why that kind of delineation is problematic not least from a perspective of celestial mechanics here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8233&highlight=equal
I exclusively use Equal with the ASC as the first house cusp, which I like to refer to as the Hermetic house system, as suggested by some of the earlier German researchers. And I treat the MC and IC as sensitive points whose house position yields useful further information this way.
Quote:  Note that "3D houses" or the 3D model of Campanus is an Equal system too, when looked at in 3D. "3D Campanus" houses are 12 equal sized wedges of the celestial sphere of 30 degrees each, which only appear different sizes in the 2D cross section seen in a 2D wheel chart. That's why another name for 3D Campanus can be "3D Equal houses".
In other words, Campanus is nice because it's both a quadrant system and an Equal system! It effectively bridges the differences between quadrant systems like Placidus, and Equal systems like Whole, taking the best of both worlds. Campanus always has 1st=Asc and 10th=MC like quadrant systems, however it's also an Equal system in which each house covers exactly 30 degrees (when you look at its 3D model). 
Well, I think basically the same could be said of Regiomontanus and other space oriented systems, which divide some circle into twelve equal sectors, but then the question arises, what the astrological significance of that would be, i.e., why that particular circle should be preferred over another. _________________ _________________
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Cruiser1
Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Posts: 40 Location: Seattle, WA

Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:53 pm Post subject: 


Paul wrote:  Isn't that true of all house systems though? They all cover 30 degrees of something.  No, many house systems are unequal. That means their houses are different sizes, and a particular house in that system may cover less than or more than 30 degrees. These smaller or larger houses sometimes result in intercepted signs and houses, in which a 30 degree sign is completely covered by a large house, or a small house is completely within a 30 degree sign. Equal house systems (in which all 12 houses are exactly 30 degrees) never have interceptions (which one might consider to be a good thing or a bad thing).
Michael Sternbach wrote:  For now, let me just emphasize that, as we use the ecliptic (aka the zodiac) as our frame of reference for the planets and pretty much everything else in our delineations...  "3D houses" departs from this model! The ecliptic only defines the signs of the zodiac, which are the 12 equally sized wedges whose "equator" is the ecliptic and whose poles are the celestial poles. 3D houses are also 12 equal sized wedges, however they're aligned with a different "axis", in which their "equator" is the prime vertical, and their poles are the North and South points on the local horizon.
Michael Sternbach wrote:  In most systems, we first define the beginning of our Wheel as the degree of the Zodiac that rises on the horizon at any given moment, which is straightforward enough...  "3D houses" departs from this model too! The horizon (and therefore the boundary of the 1st 3D house) isn't a single degree on the ecliptic, but instead is the entire eastern half of the horizon, which spans multiple zodiac degrees. With 3D houses, there's no "1st house cusp", or at least no longer house boundaries that can be expressed as a single zodiac degree.
Michael Sternbach wrote:  Well, I think basically the same could be said of Regiomontanus and other space oriented systems, which divide some circle into twelve equal sectors  Regiomontanus is indeed a spacebased system, however it is not an equal spacebased system like Campanus is. Regiomontanus produces different sized houses covering different sized areas of space. In the diagram below, notice how the Regiomontanus 12th and 7th houses are smaller, and how its 10th and 9th houses are larger. In contrast, compare to Campanus below in which all 12 houses are always equal sized wedges. 3D Campanus is the one and only equal 3D model in which all houses cover the same area of space, and which also stays a quadrant system in which the 1st house boundary is the horizon, and the 10th house boundary is the meridian. That's why 3D Campanus is the only equal quadrant system.
Campanus houses 3D model:
Regiomontanus houses 3D model:
_________________ Astrolog 7.00 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm 

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Paul Administrator
Joined: 23 Nov 2009 Posts: 1544

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:33 pm Post subject: 


Cruiser1 wrote:  Paul wrote:  Isn't that true of all house systems though? They all cover 30 degrees of something.  No, many house systems are unequal. That means their houses are different sizes, and a particular house in that system may cover less than or more than 30 degrees. These smaller or larger houses sometimes result in intercepted signs and houses, in which a 30 degree sign is completely covered by a large house, or a small house is completely within a 30 degree sign. Equal house systems (in which all 12 houses are exactly 30 degrees) never have interceptions (which one might consider to be a good thing or a bad thing). 
Well to be specific, with more intent, don't all houses cover 30º of something?
For example, Regiomontanus covers 30º of the equator. Campanus covers 30º of the Prime Vertical. Ok not all cover 30 degrees, but a lot do, but they all cover 1/3rd of something. _________________ "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"  Socrates
https://heavenlysphere.com/ 

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