Joined: 08 Oct 2017
|Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: Sidereal Origins of the Egyptian Bounds
The first 6° of Aries belong to Jupiter: temperate, robust, prolific, beneficent. Influenced by the stars of Pisces in Aries, which are of the nature of Saturn and Jupiter.
Alpherg (Saturn and Jupiter)
Mirach (Venus) is between the end of this and the beginning of next bound.
The next 6° belong to Venus: cheerful, clever, radiant, even, pure, handsome. Influenced by the beautiful and vain Cassiopeia and her daughter Andromeda. Cassiopeia indicates enhancement of beauty and adorning of the body.
Caph and Schedar (Saturn and Venus)
Metallah (Mercury) is between the end of this and the beginning of the next bound.
The following 8° fall under the ambiguous influence of Mercury: changeable, clever, idle, windy, stormy, full of thunder and lightning. Influenced by the stars of the Triangle (Mercury). The stars in the head of Aries, which are of the nature of Mars and Saturn, are known to indicate passions. Exaltation of the Sun.
Almach (Venus) is between the end of this and the beginning of the next bound.
The next 5° belong to Mars: baneful, fiery, unsteady, characteristic of rash, wicked men. Influenced by the stars in the hind foot of Aries, which are of the nature of Mars. Absence of notable stars of different planetary nature make the natural significations of the zoidion even stronger in that particular bound. Depression of Saturn.
Botein (Mars) is between the end of this and the beginning of the next bound.
The next 5° belong to Saturn: cold, barren, malicious, injured. Saturn does bad in Aries.
Notice that the last bound of every zoidion is always of Mars or Saturn.
Segin (Saturn and Venus) is between the end of this and the beginning of the next bound.
The first 8° of Taurus belong to Venus: prolific, with many children, moist, downward-trending, convicted, hating their children. Influenced by the stars at the beginning of the sign which are as Venus and Saturn, and by the Pleiades, which are as the Moon and Jupiter. Exaltation of the Moon.
From its first degree to 6° (the section of the Pleiades) it is worthless, even destructive, disease-producing, thundering, causing earthquakes and lightning flashes. The next two degrees are fiery and smokey. The right part (toward Auriga) is temperate and cool. The left parts are worthless and changeable, sometimes chilling, at other times heating. The head (to 23°) is in a temperate atmosphere, but it causes disease and death for living things. The rest is destructive, worthless, disease-ridden.
Notice Valen's sidereal mundane descriptions of the first 8 degrees of the zoidion. All bounds are related to fixed stars and clusters in a similar way as there is a certain relation for every single bound.
Notice that at 23° ends Jupiter's bound of Taurus.
Notice that Valens describes all zoidia primarily using constellations and star clusters.
For we too did not in vain made our predictions by the rising of Sirius and the stars that accompany it. By eclipses, halos and comets in each constellation that they appear and we know that the Babylonians did the same.
Notice that Algol (Jupiter and Saturn) has a very positive delineation by the Anonymous.
Disregard deceptive delineations of fixed stars. The hypsoma of the Moon cannot be a place of fabled afflictions.
Notice that the Brood-hen gives many chicks.
The next 6° belong to Mercury: intelligent, sensible, criminal, with few offspring, sinister, fatal. Influenced by the stars of the Hyades, which are as Saturn and Mercury with the exception of Aldebaran (Mars and Venus), which is in the next bound.
The next 8° belong to Jupiter: great-hearted, bold, lucky, ruling and beneficent, magnanimous, temperate, loving modesty. Influenced by Tabit and Rigel, which are of the nature of Jupiter and Saturn. Aldebaran (Mars and Venus) when rising is very auspicious for births and elections.
Notice that bright stars have large influence on a particular degree, especially if they are on the ecliptic.
Notice that a bound itself is influenced by a few stars or clusters and the five bounds together make a general influence on the zoidion. For we too did not in vain prognosticate using 36 sidereal divisions and by more specific observations we chose to split them into 60 bounds.
Rigel (Jupiter and Saturn) is between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The fourth bound, the next 5°, belong to Saturn: sterile, barren, a eunuch, a vagabond, censorious, theatrical, gloomy, toilsome. Influenced by Orion, but also by Bellatrix (Mars and Mercury) which exerts a different influence.
27th degree of Taurus… shrill voice, deceptive people and they make people who are successful and have good results, obstinate and stubborn people, they who are impetuous, impulsive, insatiable and greedy in their desires, who corrupt both young boys and maidens, perjurers and oath-breakers; especially in the nocturnal genitures. If they rise at the horoscope in a diurnal geniture they make the natives become audacious and bold, fierce, people who are inclined to repent and often change their mind, false and deceitful, thieves, godless, friendless, simulators and shammers, insolent, people who stain themselves with murder, forgers and counterfeiters, cheats and swindlers and these natives sometimes do not die well. This happens especially in a diurnal geniture.
Notice how the generation of us still had the sidereal stars in mind when delineating the bounds.
Notice that day and night influence the fixed stars as much as the planets.
Notice that the nature of the stars and the bounds are not literal or equivalent, but are meant to serve as a guide not to fall into deception.
Capella (Mars and Mercury) is between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next.
The final 3° belong to Mars: masculine, tyrannical, fiery, harsh, murderous, a looter of temples and a criminal - not an unknown one, rather destructive and short-lived. Influenced by the stars at the tips of the horns that are as Mars.
Al Hecka and El Nath (Mars)
Ensis (Moon and Mars)
The first 6° of Gemini belong to Mercury: temperate, with fine weather, intelligent, versatile, skilled, active, poetic, prolific. Influenced by Betelgeuse and Menkalinan, which are of the nature of Mars and Mercury.
The second degree of Gemini… these stars have Mars' and Mercury's temperament and nature and they make military heads and leaders, people who are valiant, able, skilled, strong and vigorous as well as full of energy, versatile, cunning and shrewd, people who are capable of doing a lot of varied activities and are competent at many things.
Notice the connection between the fixed stars and the bound of the zoidion.
The next 6° belong to Jupiter: competitive, temperate, with fine weather, prolific, luxuriant, beneficent. Influenced by the stars in the feet that are as Mercury and to a lesser degree as Venus. This particular bound contains little influence from other notable stars so we chose it to be the territory of Jupiter, yet we took into account the competitive nature of degrees, for we did consider that the planet is opposed to its place.
The third bound, 5°, belongs to Venus: blossoming, artistic, addicted to plays and mimes, poetic, a contest winner, popular, cheerful, prolific. Influenced by Alhena (Mercury and Venus) and Mirzam (Venus).
The fourth bound, 7° belong to Mars: much-burdened, with no brothers, having few children, a wanderer, with a good income, destructive, bloody, inquisitive. Influenced by Sirius (Jupiter and Mars), Canopus (Saturn and Jupiter) and Wasat (Saturn).
The last 6° belong to Saturn: temperate, a procurator, having possessions, intellectual, with a wide knowledge, distinguished, noted for intelligence, an arranger of great matters, most famous. These are untypical delineations for a Saturn bound. Consider the influence of Castor (Mercury), Adhara (Venus), Pollux (Mars) and their positive delineations by the Anonymous.
The first 7° of Cancer belong to Mars: hurling thunderbolts, moved in different directions, uneven, contradictory in his wishes, manic, prolific, poor, destructive, and in the end, base. Influenced by Procyon (Mercury and Mars). Anonymous delineates the Mars and Mercury stars in the fourth bound of Taurus along with Procyon.
Notice that the bound delineations given by Valens for these bounds are similar as well.
The next 6° belong to Venus: prolific, censorius, moist, changeable, skilled, popular, promiscuous. Influenced by Praesepe (Mars and Moon) and the two Asselli (Mars and Sun) that are at the end of this bound and the start of the next one. Both bounds contain popularity and skill.
The following 6° belong to Mercury: precise, a robber, a leader in public matters, a tax gatherer, in the public eye, rich, wealth-producing. Influenced by the stars in the claws that are as Saturn and Mercury. Exaltation of Jupiter.
Acubens (Saturn and Mercury)
The fourth bound, 7°, belongs to Jupiter: kingly, imperious, glorious, judging, great-hearted, temperate, ruling, entirely noble. Influenced by the constellation Leo that begins from this bound. Jupiter is exalted in Cancer.
Notice that these degrees are similar to the bound after the next one.
The final 4° belong to Saturn. In this bound everything is water, moist, poor in personal property, and in the end quite needy. Influenced by the stars in the head of the Lion that are as Saturn and Mars. Depression of Mars.
Notice that Saturn is opposed to its place in this zoidion.
Notice that it is also opposed to its other place in the next zoidion.
The first 6° of Leo belong to Jupiter: experienced, masculine, imperious and in general having leadership qualities, active, eminent, with no mean traits. Influenced by Regulus (Mars and Jupiter) and the stars in the neck that are as Saturn and Mercury.
Notice that Regulus has nothing to do with the Mercury bound of Virgo.
Notice that each fixed star and cluster in the proposed tropical bounds and zoidia creates a discrepancy.
Notice that only the sidereal zodiac integrates each zoidion, bound and star.
For we too did not in vain prognosticate using the stars rather than with equinoxes and solstices.
The next 5° belong to Venus: very temperate, yielding, talented, luxurious. Influenced by the faint stars in the belly and above the Lion that are of the nature of Saturn and Venus.
The third bound, 7°, belongs to Saturn: having much experience, fearful, scientific, naturally clever, narrow, religious, with many children, searching out secret lore, barren, without offspring. Influenced by the stars in the hip that are like Saturn and Venus.
Zosma (Saturn and Venus)
The next 6° belong to Mercury: addicted to plays and mimes, popular, scholastic, guiding, prescribing, intelligent. This bound is barren and characteristic of long-lived men. Influenced by the stars in the tights that are like Venus and Mercury.
The final 6° belong to Mars: very base and monstrous, destructive, injured, torpid, censured, unlucky. Influenced by the stars in the tail of the Lion (Saturn and Venus).
Leo from 25 degrees to 30 degrees… incur emotional disorders, depressions and passions. When these places ascend at the same time and rise, as we have explained above, they urge and induce people who are born in this situation to act immorally and dissolutely, not only towards women, but also towards young boys and to delight in the pleasures against nature.
Notice that the Anonymous delineates the same 6 degrees.
Denebola (Saturn and Venus)
The first 7° of Virgo belong to Mercury: lofty, procuratorial, an arranger, handsome, organizing great affairs, most intelligent, entirely noble and eminent. This bound is not, however, lucky in love. This misfortune is generally true of Virgo, especially in this bound and in that of Venus. This bound causes men who are open to criticism; the bound of Venus causes those who err constantly. They fall conspicuously short in regard to boys. Influenced by the stars in the head of the Virgin that have an effect like that of Mercury and Mars and by the stars in the Cup of Bacchus that are like Venus and Mercury.
Notice that Alkes has an influence on the last degrees of the previous bound as well.
Alkes and Labrum (Venus and Mercury)
Zavijava (Mercury and Mars)
Markeb (Saturn and Jupiter)
The next 10° belong to Venus: censured, wronging their marriage and falling into difficulty because of this, lucky in theatrical matters. They are most unnatural in their passions, especially when Saturn is in aspect; when Mercury is in aspect, they commit adultery; when Jupiter is in aspect, they commit a great number of sins which are forgivable - but still there are condemnations. When the sun is in aspect, they commit hidden actions; when the moon is in aspect, they meet with reverses and political opposition. If this bound is beheld by malefics, it causes prostitution. Passionate degrees that are influenced by Zaniah, Porrima and Auva that are as Mercury and Venus. Exaltation of Mercury.
Vindemiatrix (Saturn and Mercury)
Al-Janah and Alchiba (Mars and Saturn)
Algorab (Mars and Saturn) is between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The third bound, 4°, belongs to Jupiter: agricultural, proper, reclusive but not ignorant. Men born under this bound are trustees, fruitful, upright. Natural significations of Virgo.
Notice there are no passionate degrees as in the previous bounds.
Markeb (Saturn and Jupiter)
The fourth bound, 7°, belongs to Mars: masculine, harsh, public, demagogues, night prowlers, hired men, counterfeiters, imposters. These degrees assault men and lead them to chains, mutilation, tortures, and imprisonment. Influenced by the Bear Keeper. Depression of Venus.
Seginus (Mercury and Saturn)
Kraz (Mars and Saturn)
Hege (Mercury and Venus)
The last 2° belong to Saturn: monstrous, chilled, destructive, short-lived, the bound of deluded men. There are eminent stars in this bound, even though Arcturus rising is known to indicate fights and bad death.
Spica (Venus and Mars)
Arcturus (Jupiter and Mars) is between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The first 6° of Libra belong to Saturn: kingly, lofty, effective - especially for day births, but disturbed for night births. These degrees are also barren, moist, destructive. Influenced by Bootes (Mercury and Saturn nature with the exception of Arcturus) and Virgo. Thus barren, destructive, bad at night and other untypical of Libra descriptions.
The next 5° belong to Mercury: businesslike, craftworking, marketing, the bound of instruments of exchange and numbers, collecting; in general, just and intelligent. Influenced by Princeps (Mercury and Saturn), Kambalia and Syrma (Mercury and Mars). This bound should be 8 degrees
Notice the effect of the constellations of Virgo and Bootes.
Gacrux (Venus and Jupiter)
The third bound, 8°, belongs to Jupiter: wealth-producing, but despite that, this bound is characteristic of unlucky men, cheerlessly hoarding their possessions, living without ostentation, with a sordid lifestyle, with no appreciation of beauty, censorious - and not, of course, blessed with children. Influenced by the Crux - Mimosa and Acrux (Venus and Jupiter). This bound should be 7 degrees. Exaltation of Saturn. Depression of the Sun.
Gemma (Venus and Mercury)
Zuben Elgenubi (Saturn and Mars) at the degree of the exaltation of Saturn, thus not lucky, cheerlessness and hoarding of possessions.
The fourth bound, 7°, belongs to Venus: loving beauty, loving crafts, craftsmen themselves, e.g. sculptors, painters, engravers. In general this bound is rhythmic, pious, mild and slow, fortunate, making progress without effort, exceedingly fortunate in marriage, and lucky in everything. Natural significations of the zoidion with the exception of crafts and slowness, which are due to the influence of the powerful Zubenelschamali (Jupiter and Mercury).
Unukhalai (Saturn and Mars) is between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The remaining 4° belong to Mars: ruling, leading, lucky in all martial affairs, optimistic/spirited, steady, successful, great-hearted; not, however, with many brothers or lucky with those he has. Influenced by the previously mentioned fixed star and Agena (Venus and Jupiter). This bound should be 2 degrees.
The first 7° of Scorpio belong to Mars: easily upset and disturbed, unsteady, irascible, frank-speaking, arrogant, with few children but many brothers, uneven in fortune, inflamed, very appropriate for nativities which promise campaigns and travel abroad. Influenced by the stars in the right claw and the forehead of the Scorpio, which are at the end of the bound and the beginning of the next one - Isidis and Graffias, which are as Mars and Saturn. Depression of the Moon.
Rigel Kentaurus (Venus and Jupiter) is an auspicious star, especially for our latitudes at which it rises.
The next 4° belong to Venus: lucky in marriage, pious, loved by everyone, loving children, wealthy, selected for every office, living graciously. Influenced by Ophiuchus (Saturn and Venus) - Yed Prior, Yed Posterior and Marfic, as are known to you.
The third bound, 8°, belongs to Mercury: military, competitive, prizewinning, and, where words are concerned, bitter, contentious, not to be despised. These degrees are also prolific and fecund. In general they plan mischief, especially against those who attempt evil or do it. Influenced by Antares - Cor Scorpii (Mars and Jupiter) and the Engonasin (Mercury).
Han (Saturn and Venus)
The fourth bound, 5°, belongs to Jupiter: talented, lucky, high-priestly, glorified in gold, purple, and the high offices appropriate to the inherent greatness of the nativity. This bound is beneficent and as a whole loves men and gods. Influenced by the Serpent (Saturn and Mars) and the Engonasin (Mercury).
Sabik (Saturn and Venus)
Ras Algethi (Mercury)
The last 6° belong to Saturn: punitive, with few children or brothers, haters of their own relatives, poisoners, melancholic, and misogynists, having secret wounds, and in general very punitive and cursing fate. They are hated by both gods and men; they resist their superiors and are despised by their inferiors. Influenced by the sting of the Scorpion and Ophiuchus, thus poisoners.
Ras Alhague (Saturn and Venus)
Lesath (Mercury and Mars)
The first 12° of Sagittarius belong to Jupiter: active men. These degrees are damp but temperate, dabbling in all crafts and skills, prolific, with many children and brothers, yet poor. Influenced by the twin nebulas Aculeus and Acumen which are as Mars and Moon, Sinistra (Saturn and Venus), Spiculum and Al Nasr at the tip of the arrow (Mars and Moon) and the stars in the bow of the Archer - Polis, Kaus Media, Kaus Astralis and Kaus Borealis which are like Jupiter and Mars.
Notice that the stars at the end of the bound are more preferable than those at the beginning, which are prone to indicate injury.
The next 5° belong to Venus: temperate, prominent, victorious, prizewinning, pious, honored both by the masses and by the rulers, blessed with children and brothers, living with many women. Natural significations of Sagitarrius.
Facies (Sun and Mars)
The third bound, 4°, belongs to Mercury: verbal, subtle, active, producing eternal verities, philosophical, and in general prominent in science and wisdom; fond of learning if Mercury inclines, but if Mars inclines, loving weapons and tactics. Influenced by Pelagus and Ascella, which are as Jupiter and Mercury, and by Vega (Venus and Mercury).
Notice that Manubrium and Head-Archer (Sun and Mars) are near Vega as well, thus the bound is known to give love of weapons and tactics or wisdom depending on which planet is being influenced and its strength.
The next 5° fall to Saturn: sterile and baneful, cold, harmful, characteristic of base and completely unlucky men. Influenced by the stars in the feet that are as Jupiter and Saturn. We do not think this delineation is often the case, though the author mentions varied possibilities for Sagittarius that we too have observed.
Sheliak (Venus and Mercury)
Dheneb (Mars and Jupiter) of the Eagle is between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The next 4° belong to Mars: hot, rash, violent, shameless, destructive - except that this bound is restless in all things. All the bounds in Sagittarius indicate varied possibilities in all matters. Influenced by the Eagle (Mars and Jupiter).
He that is born with this bound rising will grow bent on spoil and aggression, but should he enlists himself in a noble cause, he will turn his depravity into virtue and be glorious among men.
The first 7° in Capricorn belong to Mercury: theatrical, comic, on the stage, lying, whoring, seducing, covetous of others' things, of no reputation, talented in everything, blessed, wealthy, but not of high rank. Influenced by the Eagle and by the stars at the horn of Pan, which are as Venus and Mars, between the end of this bound and the next one.
Albireo (Venus and Mercury)
The next 7° belong to Jupiter: it brings vicissitudes of glory and infamy, wealth and poverty, largess and public ridicule. This bound is barren, having female or deformed children, of low rank, vulgar. There is nothing wrong with female children. Influenced by Dabih and Oculus and the stars in the mouth (Saturn and Venus) which are passionate degrees.
The next 8° belong to Venus: profligate, lecherous, downward-trending, thoughtless, censured, having their ends very much in doubt, not dying well, nor steady in marriage. Influenced by the heart and back of the Goat and by Aquarius. Depression of Jupiter.
Armus (Mercury and Saturn)
Dormus (Saturn and Jupiter)
Albali (Saturn and Mercury)
The fourth bound, 4°, belongs to Saturn: severe, cheerless, alien, unlucky with their children and brothers, bloody and destructive, cold, pitiless/stand-offish, malicious, slow to act, but tricky. Influenced by the stars in the belly and tail of Pan, which are as Saturn and Jupiter.
Castra (Saturn and Jupiter)
Nashira (Saturn and Jupiter) is between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The last 4° belong to Mars: lofty, prosperous, dictatorial, aiming at rule in everything, poor, destructive of their own relatives and of brothers, wandering, loving solitude, quarrelsome to the end. Influenced by the stars in the tail of the Goat, which are as Saturn and Jupiter. Mars is more constructive in places of Saturn. Exaltation of Mars.
Deneb Algedi (Saturn and Jupiter)
Sadalsuud (Saturn and Mercury)
The first 7° of Aquarius belong to Mercury: rich, miserly, gladly hoarding wealth up to the measure of the nativity, intelligent, learned in the law, precisely defining everything, imperious, petty, careworn, loving education and all disciplines, supervisory, overseeing, philanthropic. Influenced by the stars in the shoulders of the Water Bearer, which are as Saturn and Mercury.
Ancha (Mercury and Saturn) and Sadalmelik (Saturn and Mercury) are between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The next 6° belong to Venus: loving well, pious, wealthy without effort, profiting by sudden and unexpected good fortune, prosperous, seafaring. These are prolific degrees. It is beneficial for anyone born under these degrees to unite with old women, the feeble, or with eunuchs, and to gain advantage from the barren or the aged. Influenced by the bright stars Fomalhaut and Deneb Algide, which are of the nature of Venus and Mercury. Notice that the Anonymous has similar delineation of Fomalhaut to Valen's delineation of this bound.
The next 7° belong to Jupiter: lucky, petty, lurking at home, careless of his reputation, living in obscurity, fortunate in his children, misanthropic. Influenced by the stars in and near the stream of water, which are as Saturn and Jupiter.
Skat and Situla (Saturn and Jupiter)
Achernar (Jupiter) of Eridanus has influence between the end of this bound and the beginning of the next one.
The next 5° belong to Mars: diseased (particularly in the internal organs), troubled by lawsuits; this bound is characteristic of wicked, intractable, and incapable men - except that these men readily attempt evil deeds. Influenced by Pegasus.
Homam (Mars and Mercury)
The remaining degrees, 5°, belong to Saturn: barren, moist, conceiving with difficulty, enfeebled, especially in the dura mater and the internal organs, afflicted with dropsy and fits, poor, with few brothers or children, envious, unlucky in their ends. Influenced by Pegasus.
Markab (Mars and Mercury)
The first 12° of Pisces belong to Venus: cheery, fecund, downward-trending, luxurious, living graciously, with a friendly greeting, celebrating, loving, making progress without effort, dear to the gods. Natural significations of Pisces.
Scheat (Mars and Mercury)
Deneb Kaitos (Saturn)
The next 4° belong to Jupiter: literary, learned, preeminent among the masses and victorious over everyone because of his words, with many brothers, prolific, with many children, having too many associates and brothers. Natural significations of Pisces. Depression of Mercury.
Algenib (Mars and Mercury)
The next 3° belong to Mercury: fecund, ruling, those of high rank, with many friends, bounteous, loving their parents, charitable, pious, temperate. Influenced by Cepheus.
Alderamin (Saturn and Jupiter)
The next 9° belong to Mars: active, naval warriors, bold guides, attaining success in mystic lore, plundering but then restoring, varied, not dying a natural death. Influenced by Andromeda, thus boldness and naval warriors. Exaltation of Venus.
Baten Kaitos (Saturn)
The last 2° belong to Saturn: enfeebled, moist, subject to fits, entirely unlucky. Influenced by Kurdah (Saturn and Jupiter) and Acamar (Saturn).
We have given instruction about what effect each degree produces. And we have walked through each bound and cast further light upon it.
Such then are our observations of the effects of the stars and zoidia themselves.
Whoso loves unquietness, let him be reformed.
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: California, USA
|Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:34 am Post subject:
|Petosiris, I've only had time just now to quickly look over your post. Apparently you are attempting to note stars within bounds which have the same planetary characteristics as the lord of the bound. But all you have here is a very rough draft. You haven't given the name of the Valens translator you are using, which is necessary when you are quoting an author's words. Then it's best to put quotation marks around each quote or place the quote in a separate box so the author's words are clearly separated from your comments.
Then you need to choose an ayanamsa and list the precise degrees and minutes of stars as different ayanamsas will give different numerical degrees for the stars. And you haven't identified yourself except with a pseudonym.
The idea of identifying Ptolemy's nature of stars that lie within each bound is interesting, but requires a great deal more work than you have attempted. In my list of 768 stars (the Erlewine list) there are 13 bright magnitude stars in the first six degrees of Aries which represent five different constellations. (Krishnamurti ayanamsa) If I were doing this project I'd begin by choosing the brightest stars within each bound, except that some bounds have only low magnitude stars.
All in all, an interesting research project, but first the groundwork has to be carefully planned which includes an ayanamsa and a procedure for choosing which stars are to be included and which stars would be eliminated from the many possibilities within each sector of the zodiac.
PS: Oh, I see at the end of your post way at the bottom you gave two websites, one for Valens and one for Anonymous of 379. But it would be best to list the translators and texts you are using at the beginning of your post. However, you didn't give a reference for the star positions or ayanamsa you are using.
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: California, USA
|Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:43 am Post subject:
|Petosiris, do you happen to be using star longitudes from Anonymous of 379? These are tropical longitudes as Anonymous states:
|Since we do not want our exposition to be too wordy and the table seem too obscure, we start to make you known the effective virtue of every unwandering star as we have entered in the table the degree of longitude at which every star was in the time of Olybrius' and Ausonius' consulate [note 5: 379 AD] that is in the year in which we have composed this treatise. In truth, as divine Ptolemy has shown, during hundred years the stars move one degree towards the parts that follow the equinoxes and the solstices...
Italian translation by Giuseppe Bezza from CCAG V/1 pp. 194-211.
English translation by Daria Dudziak.
Robert Schmidt translated Anonymous in 1993, and Robert Hand wrote a very good Introduction in which he stated:
|According to the text the longitudes were computed by correcting the positons of Ptolemy’s star catalog in the Almagest by adding the one degree per century (Ptolemy’s value). However the end result in longitudes that agree very precisely with those of the same stars in the sidereal zodiac using the Fagan-Allen ayanamsa. I do not offer a solution here other than that of rank coincidence...(page V) |
Robert Hand didn’t check the degrees very carefully because the majority of them agree more closely with the Lahiri ayanamsa. But as he says, only coincidence seems to be the answer to the similarity in longitudes since Anonymous clearly states he is using tropical longitudes. So for any project that notes stars within sidereal bounds it's necessary to begin with an ayanamsa for calculation of star degrees.
Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Location: California, USA
|Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject:
|I'm not sure where this reference was posted on Skyscript, but whether or not the terms are related to the stars, we now know that they were originally sidereal due to the article posted by Alexander Jones and John M. Steele.
I was amazed at the article myself which discussed two cuneiform astrological tablets in the British Museum that provided the first evidence of knowledge of the Terms in Babylonian records. I have the article in hard copy, so I hope it's available for downloading on the internet. We know definitely that the twelve sign zodiac used in Mesopotamia was measured from various fixed stars, so the division of the signs into Terms required precise sidereal degrees.
"A New Discovery of a Component of Greek Astrology in Babylonian Tables: The Terms"
by Alexander Jones and John M. Steele, ISAW Papers 1 (2011)
Joined: 08 Oct 2017
|Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:39 pm Post subject:
|You do know what is an ordinal number. I find it ridiculous to argue with eastern pundits, consider that both Manilius and Valens agree that the Pleiades rise at 6° Taurus, something impossible in the calculations of the Persians and Indians, but a degree that is in accordance with our calculations and those of the Babylonians. And we do not use one star, but we consider all stars as reference points constantly.
Very soon this matter would be of little importance, but for your information we do currently have Aldebaran very near 15° Taurus, but this is so held.
And I am fully aware of the tropical calculations in the Anonymous, which happen to align within a degree with our zodiac by coincidence.
For Ptolemy used older star catalogues of Hipparchus and his contemporaries. While they had Aldebaran correctly at 10° Tropical Taurus, Ptolemy added the erroneous rate of precession of 1° per century, placing Aldebaran at 12° 40' Tropical Taurus in his time.
Hephaistio and the Anonymous added another 2° in their century, thus they had Aldebaran at the ordinal 15° Tropical Taurus, which was actually 18° in the Tropical zodiac in their time. Astronomy with equinoxes is more difficult than one with Sirius.
Consider how much behind their degrees are according to your zodiac, even more so than to our calculations.
Thus, only the sources of Ptolemy would be close to the degrees of the stars accepted by astronomers and astrologers today. The Greek astronomers have not been observing the skies as long as we and the Babylonians did.
http://dlib.nyu.edu/awdl/isaw/isaw-papers/1/ - Here is the paper of the scholars on the observations of the Babylonians, which for the most part agree with ours.
You are too pretentious for anyone to bother more than this.
Joined: 08 Oct 2017
|Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:43 am Post subject:
|I wrote a lot of trash (the usage of stars way off the ecliptic) at the time, I am not going to make the same mistake again. This is preliminary and written haphazardly, so I hope the reader pardons me.
The ones with * pretty straightforward and convincing. The ones with ** seem plausible and the rest may have other rationales.
*The first 6° of Aries belong to Jupiter, because of Pisces in Aries. - elevation and advancements and citizens of two cities; robust and prolific according to Valens - because Pisces is double-bodied and prolific constellation.
**The next 6° of Aries belong to Venus - Face of the Ram or Cassiopeia? - love, friendship and intercourse with superior women; ''handsome'' according to Valens.
**The next 8° belong to Mercury, because of the Triangle? (Mercury). - good nurture, love of labor, reputation, advancements; clever according to Valens.
The next 5° belong to Mars, because of just Aries, back? - extreme dissapointment, condemnation, adulteries, injury; rash, wicked men according to Valens.
**The final 5° belong to Saturn, because of just Aries, back or tail? - Valens and Critodemus slightly differ here, ’’back at about 25, 26, 27, 28’’ degrees according to the Anonymous of 379 are passionate degrees.
*The first 8° of Taurus belong to Venus, because of the Pleaides. - love, graceful; prolific and with many children.
**The next 6° belong to Mercury - Hyades, bit difference between Valens and Critodemus.
*The next 8° belong to Jupiter - Eyes - beauty, reputation, advancement.
**The next 5° belong to Saturn - Horns, here Critodemus is also heavily different from Valens and the Anonymous, in my opinion because he did not note of far away Orion
*The final 3° belong to Mars - Horn Tips/Al Hecka and El Nath (Mars according to Ptolemy, I recommend checking the natures for all fixed stars I am going to mention as they almost always coincide with the bounds)
*I would also note that Valens gives degrees of asterisms that entirely coincide with the beginning of the bounds in meteorological context. This may also further imply that some of the early astrologers already had a causal conception of astrology.
From its first degree to 6° (the section of the Pleiades) it is worthless, even destructive, disease-producing, thundering, causing earthquakes and lightning flashes. The next two degrees are fiery and smokey. The head (to 23°) is in a temperate atmosphere, but it causes disease and death for living things. The rest is destructive, worthless, disease-ridden.
The first 6° belong to Mercury - Gemini and no bright stars? - stillness, obstruction, rest; temperate, with fine weather, intelligent, versatile, skilled, active, poetic, prolific according to Valens.
The next 6° belong to Jupiter - Gemini with bright stars?
**The next 5° belong to Venus - Gemini with bright stars?/Alhena (Mercury and Venus)
The next 7° belong to Mars - Gemini, Sirius??? - power and advancement; but much burdened according to Valens, I personally doubt they would use ecliptic longitudes of far distant fixed stars. I really hope they did not use paranatellonta, as that would be hard to change.
**The final 6° belong to Saturn - Heads of the Twins, thus arranger of great matters and intelligent according to Valens, however Critodemus differs.
**The first 7° belong to Mars - Back - hostilities; moved in different directions according to Valens, maybe because of the legs.
*The next 6° belong to Venus - Breast - desirous, lovers of cleanliness.
*The next 6° belong to Mercury - Head - frienships with superiors, lovers of discourse; tax gatherers and precise according to Valens, maybe because of the claws.
**The next 7° belong to Jupiter - Claws?
*The last 4° of Cancer belong to Saturn, because of the Mouth of the Lion. - irregular, inconstant, those who do not remain in honor, those who are shifty, restless.
*The first 6° of Leo belong to Jupiter, because of the Heart of the Lion/Regulus - going up, advancements from a meager fortune, friendships with those who are superior; imperial and eminent according to Valens.
**The next 5° belong to Venus - Mane - good fortune, advancements; talented, luxurious.
**The next 7° belong to Saturn - Belly - chilled in their bodies and in their minds; again Valens contradicts himself.
The next 6° belong to Mercury - Back - speech, honors on account of teaching; intelligent.
*The last 6° of Leo belong to Mars, because of the tail of the Lion/Denebola - toil, misfortunes, sufferings, and some are also in danger physically in their extremities; base and monstrous according to Valens. The Anonymous of 379 delineates the same degrees in the context of fixed stars negatively and connected with licentiousness.
*The first 7° of Virgo belong to Mercury, because of the head of the Virgin. - exactitude, philosophy, geometry, astrological advocateds, those who make their living by teaching; similar in Valens, although he includes licentiousness which might be due to the Cup of Bacchus, as might be the case with the next bound after it, which is also different from Critodemus.
*The next 10° belong to Venus - Breast - I think this one is pretty obvious.
**The next 4° belong to Jupiter - Belly
**The next 7° belong to Mars - Girdle or Bootes?
**The final 2° belong to Saturn - Corn or Arcturus? - vicissitudes and risks, Valens and the Anonymous say short-lived (again to note that the Anonymous is delineating fixed stars in the same way Valens does the bounds, and appear to have the same longitudes)
**The first 6° belong to Saturn - Virgin Robe - destruction and reduction according to Critodemus;Valens uses sect (and says it is kingly for day, but disturbed for night), similarly to how the Anonymous uses sect on a few fixed stars, I wonder if they had common source or they are related
*The next 8° belong to Mercury - Virgin Feet - versatile; intelligent.
*The next 7° belong to Jupiter - Southern Scale - obvious
*The next 7° belong to Venus - Northern Scale - obvious
*The final 2° belong to Mars - Scorpion Claws, both Critodemus and Valens note the affinity of Mars with its Claws, of which Libra was once part of. Thus they both have successful and martial delineations.
The first 7° belong to Mars - Front, Claws?
The next 4° belong to Venus - Head?
*The next 8° belong to Mercury - Heart/Antares - trustees and administrators; Valens has military and bitter.
The next 5° belong to Jupiter - Back - increase and advancements…
*The last 6° of Scorpio belong to Saturn, because of the sting of the Scorpion. - ''necessity, constraint, the crushing of revelry, and some are deprived of their seed.''; ''poisoners'' - Valens.
**The first 12° belong to Jupiter - Bow and planetary years - powers, leaders, lords over life and death, kingly; different in Valens though (naturalism strikes again)
The next 5° belong to Venus - Arrow? - difference again amongst the authors because of naturalism imo.
*The next 4° belong to Mercury - Head - fond of frivolous conversation;verbal, subtle, active according to Valens. Basically the most anthropomorphic part of Sagittarius.
The next 5° belong to Saturn - Feet? - high spirits; cold, harmful etc. according to Valens.
The next 4° belong to Mars - Back? - being away from home, exile; hot, rash etc. according to Valens.
**The first 7° belong to Mercury - Horns - abdominal birth, little nourishment; whoring and seducing according to Valens.
**The next 7° belong to Jupiter - Head? - noble in rank; Valens slightly differs.
*The next 8° belong to Venus - Heart - luxury, passionate; profligate, lecherous, downward-trending, thoughtless, censured, having their ends very much in doubt, not dying well, nor steady in marriage according to Valens
**The next 4° belong to Saturn - Belly - harsh, frank, authoritative; destructive, cold according to Valens, maybe because of the moist part of Capricorn.
*The final 4° belong to Mars - Tail - flights, bonds; Valens appears to give a more neutral delineations (although in my opinion a bit contradictory)
*The first 7° belong to Mercury - Head - self-control, philosophical in manner (Human Head = Mercury, pretty straightforward like the previous ones); intelligent according to Valens.
**The next 6° belong to Venus - Bright stars of Aquarius - those who are trustees for great women;
The next 7° belong to Jupiter - Urn? Water? - victory, notable, brilliant, some are winners of games; lucky, petty etc. (I can’t make sense of the one by Valens)
The next 5° belong to Mars - Water?, Pegasus? - shameful or die violent deaths; wicked men according to Valens.
The final 5° belong to Saturn - Southern Fish Mouth? - education, dissapointment in youth; barren, moist, conceiving with difficulty, enfeebled, especially in the dura mater and the internal organs, afflicted with dropsy and fits, poor, with few brothers or children, envious, unlucky in their ends according to Valens.
The first 12° belong to Venus - Southern Fish Head? and planetary years
The next 4° belong to Jupiter - Southern Fish Fin?
The next 3° belong to Mercury - Upper Southern Cord?
The next 9° belong to Mars - Lower Southern Cord?, Andromeda? - robbers, murderers; active, naval warriors according to Valens.
The last 2° belong to Saturn - Northern Fish? - Critodemus and Valens differ a lot here
Pisces seems very difficult, as it has few notable features.
It is possible that many of the bounds are partly numerical derived as well, Saturn degrees commonly being 1/5 of planetary years and Jupiter degrees being 1/2. This is more clear with the first bounds of Taurus, Sagittarius and Pisces. Also a malefic bound being always at the end, although that also fits well with most of the constellations.
I prefer Critodemus for most, especially since they appear uninfluenced by naturalism. The delineations could have been post facto, but the fixed stars natures given by Ptolemy and the Anonymous are a testimony that it is extremely likely that the Egyptian bounds are not accidental at all. Also it explains why the domicile and exaltation rationale does not hold up in a few signs.
The question is why does Ptolemy do not mention fixed stars as a possible rationale, my take is he was not aware of it, or because he used a tropical zodiac and seemed to be slightly aware (2.11. does not imply a complete awareness) that fixed stars could be displaced in their natural effects, he had to reject them.
Aldebaran 15 ayanamsha, as that is what the degrees given by Valens imply. The Anonymous of 379 accidentaly used the same fixed star degrees because of incorrect precession rate.
Anthology by Vettius Valens, 1.3., translation by Mark Riley
Schmidt, Robert (1995). The astrological record of the early sages in greek. The Golden Hind Press, Berkeley Springs, p. 53-57.
I think it makes little sense to use the Egyptian bounds with a tropical zodiac, as the tropical benefic bounds constantly ingress into the malefic bounds and vice versa.
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