31
Thanks for your reply, Mark. Actually the technique I used (the overlapping of 9th harmonic planets to natal planets) isn't how the navamsa is traditionally used in India. I discovered this application of the 9th harmonic through years of study and experimentation. So the only real reference to Jyotish is the word 'navamsa' and also the Krishnamurti ayanamsa. Oh, and 'Ketu' which is much easier to type than 'Moon's south node.'

Recently I've noted however, that this technique has appeared here and there in contemporary Indian sources. Who is to say that this technique might not be applicable to Traditional Astrology since the 9ths have been known since earliest horoscopic astrology?

I wouldn't have posted here if I'd noticed that this was the Traditional forum. I've moved my posts to the sidereal forum, so Tom is at liberty to delete my posts. Here is the link to the Lies and Deception topic on that forum: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9779
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

33
Hi:

James. M wrote:
i would consider positions in the 8th house, especially a saturn in the 8th, which is seen here and in a number of examples i casually scanned.. bernie madoff is another example..
I have Saturn in 8 (Pisces) and am not prone to lying/decepetion (so says me, anyway 8) ).

Bernie Madoff's Saturn is unaspected and in its fall. (tropical)


Cheers.
The Moon is opposing Jupiter. Don't get involved, it's their problem. Jim Critchfield

34
hi moonbright!

i am sorry i missed your post, but i will just emphasize what i believe mark said further up the thread.. no one factor is going to cover anything.. there would have to be more then just one factor like saturn in 8th for example... and yes - bernie madoff has saturn in aries - solar 12th to his taurus planets too, which is only further confirmation for me of a set that includes a number of astro signatures that mark already identified... i think mars in gemini is another one that could be added to the list, but again - nothing in isolation..

on another note - i saw the exhaustive post you made on the eclipse for the usa and hurricane irma.. you put a lot of work into that, but i didn't comment as it was going to take up too much of my time! i was also hoping mark would, but he has yet to... i might still, if he doesn't... good work and obviously you are into it! i think the rules and process for mundane is different then horary and i have had this conversation a few times at skyscript over the years.. really it might be a thread for the philosophical section! cheers james

35
I've associated the 12th house with lies. Possibly as a feature of secret enemies.

Hillary Clinton is an interesting case study. During the 2016 campaign she had all kinds of criticism thrown at her for being a liar, notably about the incident at Benghazi under her watch as Secretary of State. Donald Trump nicknamed her "crooked Hillary." Anne Coulter claimed that HC covered up for her husband's sexual predations. Previously, the Clintons spent several years being investigated for possible impropriety in a failed real estate development named Whitewater.

On the other hand, as Secretary of State a majority of Americans thought Hillary Clinton was doing a fine job. She has a long list of honorary degrees and honours to her credit. She was popular enough to become the Democratic presidential nominee.

So.... using the commonly rectified 8:02 am birth time

In Placidus, Clinton has sun, Mercury, and Venus in the 12th house, with squares to Venus and Mercury from a 9th house Saturn and Mars.

Looks like the liar, right?

But if you switch to whole signs, Clinton's 12th house planets move to the angular first house, notably including Mercury. Her domiciled Jupiter moves to the second house ($$$.) Her Mars and Saturn move to her 10th house of career, with the sun and Mars in mutual reception.

Looks like the strong leader, right?

I don't quite know what to make of the impact of the change in house systems on whether Clinton was a truth-teller, other than to note it.

36
waybread,

to go back to some of quotes i shared from the old texts - mars and mercury in hard aspect being one of them - i note hilary has a mercury square mars in her chart too..

working with houses is tricky, especially if the time hasn't been verified..

from a post i made sept 2nd.. hilarys chart has mars in the superior position to mercury..


" 8. if mars and mercury are in square aspect and mars hold the superior part of the right square, this indicates a fearful outcome to all evils.. it weakens the native with constant pains, attacks all his occupations with reverses, make him the victim of evil rumors, and stirs up dreadful dangers of accusation, so that all these difficulties end in prison... these evils grow stronger in a diurnal chart but are lessened in a nocturnal.
9. but if mercury holds the superior position and the right side, he makes the natives wicked and malicious, displaying poisonous desires, carrying on all kinds of fraud, and greedily devouring the goods of others.. they pass from one victim to another, always rapaciously seeking what they can get; eventually they are made destitute by their wicked tricks and clever frauds and in the end lose all their possessions.."

37
.... which is why I am skeptical of some of the old deterministic doom-and-gloom cookbook delineations.

Clinton has had many undeniable successes in her life: most recently a best-selling book.

38
waybread,

a person will not get very far in astrology if they aren't sceptical on pretty near everything to do with astrology! i think that goes without saying.. to flip it around on you the new 'non deterministic - you can be anything you want' cookbook delineations suck big time too!

as for h clintons success with her book... good for her!

here is the not so pretty side some folks picked up on her
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtH7iv4ip1U

39
James, I supported Hillary Clinton, in recognizing that she-- like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders-- was a flawed candidate. I read all of the right-wing boiler-plate about "crooked Hillary."

My sole purpose in posting on this thread was to suggest how, if lying has a house connection such as the 12th, a finding of untruthfulness may be a function of the house system selected. Not to re-hash the 2016 election.

40
i understand waybread.. it's interesting conjecture - houses and whether there might be a component to lying built into them.. i mostly think of the planets being the active ingredients and houses being more of a passive receptor, but that is a kind of static thought which might be wrong.. i don't know..

41
I wouldn't see houses as having a "lying component built into them," although the 12th has a wretched reputation in traditional astrology. It's more like a given interpretation might be an artifact of the house system used. Re: the 1st and 12th, it makes a big difference in whole signs with a late degree rising.

42
Wolfgang wrote:In the modern version of astrology, Neptune Mercury aspects are indicative of lie (s) or liar.

b.r
Wolfgang
Wolfgang and everyone else:

I would agree that natal Mercury and Neptune is the signature of a liar and or con artist. Another signature to watch for is natal Mercury in Pisces, in square aspect or opposition to natal Mars.

A third signature of deception is Gemini rising, especially if the chart ruler is afflicted with Neptune or Mars.