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Skyscript Astrology Forum

When will Ms. D stop visiting Audrey?
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 89

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: When will Ms. D stop visiting Audrey? Reply with quote

When will Ms. D stop visiting Audrey?


This is a bit of an unusual question -- phantom or just a vivid imagination – it’s hard for me to say because it is not me who is experiencing the incident. There are two main characters here.

Audrey is my brother in law’s wife. Ms. D was an elderly person who died recently. They were not related to each other except Audrey was her caretaker for many years and they had an excellent relationship.

Soon after her death, some complications started with the deceased’s will. Unfortunately Audrey was asked to get involved with the estate, but she was able to withdraw herself (she wanted peace of her mind rather than money). She was so relieved that the whole incident was behind her until . . .

A few weeks ago, Audrey started to feel Ms. D’s presence at own home during the night. According to Audrey, she can’t not see Ms. D but she is very nearby and tried to communicate something to her. Ms. D also came in while Audrey was sleeping. Audrey was very scared at first and tried to figure out what Ms. D wants to tell her. Audrey concluded that Ms. D was not satisfied with the way things are going regarding her will and also wanted to know why Audrey suddenly stopped taking care of her garden and staying away from her estate. So Audrey decided to talk to Ms. D one night. When she felt Ms. D’s presence, Audrey sat down on the couch and tried to explain what is going on with her will and that therefore, she no longer wants to get involved with her estate.

(Here I must explain that Ms. D was lucky to have my sister in law as a caretaker. Audrey is a kind, thoughtful and deeply spiritual person.)

After that Ms. D appeared one more time in Audrey’s dream. It was a scary one because Ms. D grabbed Audrey’s arm with both hands putting strong pressure. Audrey must have moaned or screamed because when she opened her eyes, she saw her husband (my brother in law) was looking at her very concerned.

Two charts to follow . . .
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: When will Ms. D stop visiting Audrey? Reply with quote

The Chart 1 (without outer planets)


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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: When will Ms. D stop visiting Audrey? Reply with quote

Hi,


This is the chart (see below) with outer planets. I ended up turning the chart.

I included Pluto Rx as the symbol of the deceased who came back from the other world (. . . does such a case exist?).

Audrey’s ascendant is radix 3rd with Taurus. Ms. D is radix 12th Capricorn as her employer (derived 10th) rather than radix 9th Scorpio and placing her as other person (derived 7th).

Audrey’s home is represented by radix 6th with Cancer. Moon could be Audrey’s co-significator symbolizing her emotional state which is conjunct with Pluto Rx or Moon might be derived L4 of her home and Pluto Rx symbolizing Ms. D’s visit. Both planets are in radix H12 (anxieties and delusions).

Audrey’s main significator is Venus ruled by Gemini. Venus has just entered to radix 4th or derived 2nd house. Venus was sextile to Mercury not too long ago but now Mercury is separating. I wonder Mercury in here represents her mental state . . . Mercury is in radix 6th house, derived 4th.

Both Audrey and her husband were physically fatigued (according to Audrey, very badly fatigued) after the last dream incident which I mentioned earlier. I wonder if The Sun here represents Audrey’s spouse since Leo rules radix 7th.

Mars on the other hand could be her husband (derived 7th), Ms. D (derived 7th), muscle fatigue (radix H6 combusted and in fall) or dream (radix 9th). Ms. D, my main choice is to place her as Saturn Rx. The elderly is at the cusp of derived 9th, the house of dream – revisiting Audrey. Saturn square Chiron (pain & suffering).

Anyway, quite a lot to digest for me. Whether you believe in the ghost or not I think it is an interesting case to read in the chart. Anyone interested in interpreting the chart?





The Chart 2


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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to be going all over with this chart, turning here and there Rolling Eyes . . . perhaps someone might show me a less complicated method.

I know adding extra information might just make things more complicated but – here’s one more: Audrey is a “Reiki” practitioner (no fees, strictly volunteer). Her Reiki method is Japanese -- for instance, as compared to the later method created by a Hawaiian Japanese, etc. So that "Reiki" practice might explain Jupiter in Libra (derived L9, radix L11) who is in her derived 6th house.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you take Saturn as Ms. D the chart must show evidence that Saturn is afflicting Venus. Saturn is not afflicting Venus in this chart.

So, either Ms. D is not Saturn or the whole affliction is not taking place to start with.

If this is taking place then:

The planets afflicting Venus are Mercury (close sextile and dispositor), Mars (by antiscial conjunction) and the Sun by antiscial combustion.

Mercury is L4: the estate, the garden, etc. She is having this experience because she "is" in the estate. She is ruled by it.

Mars is the turned L12 for Venus, so there is a measure of self-inflicted distress in the picture.

Ms. D is an "unrelated person". So she must be radical L7, the Sun. Look at where Fortuna is, hinting at the core of the question: Ms. D.

When will Venus stop being afflicted by the Sun?

When Venus leaves combustion by antiscion. That will happen when the Sun leaves Cancer as Venus is going deeper into combustion now.

Time accordingly using the timing technique of your choice.
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Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are having trouble assigning significators, use descriptions of the people involved to guide you. If it were me, I would have thought through significators before asking the question.
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Part of Fortune



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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit,

Thank you very much for your suggestion and yes, absolutely you are right!

Until Felipe pointed out that not Saturn Rx but the Sun is the significator of Ms. D – I thought I had it.

She was elderly (90 years old). She was my sister in law’s employer for many years and even after her death, Audrey was employed by Ms. D through her will.

These were the reasons that I chose her as derived 10th house. However my thought shouldn’t have stopped there because as Felipe said Saturn Rx did not have aspect with Venus and I was wondering about that fact . . . I should have followed up on those lines.

Once Felipe pointed out 7th house I realized that Ms. D had died and Audrey cut off the ties with her estate.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felipe Very Happy -- just in time you replied – thank you so much!

I was going round and around without any satisfying result, therefore earlier yesterday, I dropped the second chart (the outer planet version). I turned to the first chart, the traditional horary method and immediately saw my confusion in 12th house through the Moon. While I was reexamining the traditional method, you replied bringing your usual condensed but precise reading.

Anyway, please correct me if I’m wrong about assigning myself to the Moon – first of all, I thought I had nothing to do in this chart because of my question; it’s all about Audrey and Ms. D.

Secondly, I had already given Saturn to Ms. D instead of the Sun. Though I wondered about the Moon it usually goes to the querent as co-significator (with some exceptions) but I already decided that I’m not involved in the chart.

Therefore, Audrey’s experience with Ms. D visiting her at Audrey’s home – I zoomed into the Moon (Cancer at 4th from Audrey’s Asc.) conjunct with Pluto Rx in 12th house. Retrograding Saturn in that context to me fitted the above description of the dead elderly’s revisit.

Felipe wrote:
“Mars is the turned L12 for Venus, so there is a measure of self-inflicted distress in the picture.”


It is so true what you’ve said here. Audrey is always busy and we hardly talked to each other but now Ms. D’s gone and she had some spare time, so the other day, I invited Audrey to an Art Museum just to boost her morale. We talked and I realized she was far more distressed than I thought.

I think Aries when in Audrey’s 12th also represents Ms. D’s will. L8 Mars which is conjunct the Sun. It looks like when I was thinking about poor Audrey, I got involved in the situation as well – the Moon shows my delusion with outer planets. I think there’s no phantom in the chart.

Felipe, thanks again for straightening out the significators. I sent you a PM; a few details that should not be shared in public.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of Fortune wrote:
Anyway, please correct me if I’m wrong about assigning myself to the Moon – first of all, I thought I had nothing to do in this chart because of my question; it’s all about Audrey and Ms. D.


The Moon is the 12th from the 7th: Ms. D's 12th. The Moon can be your co-sig too. But in my opinion we have to keep it simple and focussed on the question. Some things are clear to interpret, some things are not. So I prefer to get the answer to the question and leave all the unclear things out otherwise we end up with a muddy interpretation.

Part of Fortune wrote:
I think there’s no phantom in the chart.


You may have been thinking of a phantom. The Moon closely opposing the Sun on the 12th cusp can hint at that. But there's no phantom in the chart because the chart is about a person. Whether the person is dead or alive makes no difference. Ms. D is L7.

So, this is not a chart about ghosts. It is a chart about someone who is upset by the presence of another person (L7) and about her own inner conflicts (L12:Mars). And the theme of the story is Mercury: L4.

Part of Fortune wrote:
Felipe, thanks again for straightening out the significators. I sent you a PM; a few details that should not be shared in public.


You're welcome. I read the PM. Interesting chart and story.

Best.
_________________
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Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There have been some haunting horaries before and I remember researching it when I was having recurring night terrors. Lilly has a section in Christian Astrology book II. Here is a post that covers it a little bit and also directs you to other posts:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5814
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felipe wrote --
Quote:
So, this is not a chart about ghosts. It is a chart about someone who is upset by the presence of another person (L7) and about her own inner conflicts (L12:Mars). And the theme of the story is Mercury: L4.

Audrey and I had a conversation at the art museum the other day which I thought was quite significant -- she brought up the incident of our mother in law’s accident last year.

The elderly woman fell and had to stay in emergency hospital for two days. Fortunately her recovery was very fast and she had a trained nurse come to her home for several weeks. After that I went over to her place every day to prepare her brunch and dinner.

It was natural for me to help her since I live in walking distance whereas Audrey lived farther way. I didn’t know about her inner conflict until the other day when she told me that she felt so guilty because she only came in twice a week and she dreamed her late mother appeared to her and lectured her about not helping enough.

I don’t know Audrey’s exact birth time – somewhere in the evening. I found several planets in her 6th house of service according to that information.

I'm glad I did this (Ms. D)chart. I got to know Audrey better. Thanks Felipe!


Last edited by Part of Fortune on Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Part of Fortune



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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
There have been some haunting horaries before and I remember researching it when I was having recurring night terrors. Lilly has a section in Christian Astrology book II. Here is a post that covers it a little bit and also directs you to other posts:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5814


Hey Tanit, thanks for the thread!

I saw the chart Andrew Bevan posted back in 2010 . . . wow! Mr. Bevan’s story is heavy duty compared to my sister in law’s.

I printed out the chart with current transit and I saw something interesting -- T Mars is close to the Ascendant but this is not what he's talking about. Is he talking about Sirius?

Quote by Mr. Bevan:
“The first thing I notice is the degree of Mars' fall on the Ascendant. This is often an indication of some domestic issue, an infection or situation of unrest.”


Also someone quoted from Lilly:

If the Lord of the ascendant be Combust, or infortunate in the twelfth, or joyned to the Lord of the twelfth, there may be great feare, that the party enquiring or enquired for is Inchanted or Bewitched, or else some evill Spirits doe hant him.

...that if one Planet be Lord of the ascendant and twelfth house, that then the Sicknesse is more then naturall: when Saturn is Lord of the ascendant and twelfth, and in the twelfth Retrograde, or in the 7th or eighth house in the same condition, and the Moon being Lady of the sixth, apply to Saturn, we constantly judge the party enquiring is Bewitched or Fore-spoken, or that an evill Spirit hath power over him, and that the Infirm will be sore oppressed and disturbed in his Fancy, if not distracted.”


. . . And here my sister in law’s significator Venus (derived ascendant) has “antiscial combustion” (see Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:19 pm) also the chart has retrograde Saturn as radix Ascendant and L12 (retrograde however not in 12th).

I love mystery (I have Mars trine Neptune). The more the merrier with these “Haunted” stories and I’m thinking to post here the “Haunted” chart with current transit . . . I wonder if I need to get permission from Mr. Bevan or Skyscript -- what do you suggest?
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote by Mr. Bevan:

"The degree of Mars' fall is on the asc., so there is an expression of energy, aggitation and disturbance that has not yet let go. It would have been different if the asc were in Leo, because then Cancer would have let go and have been sealed and done with."

OK, I got it. 28 degrees in Cancer (current Mars is not on that degree).
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi There,

A funny little incident here. I was reading various replies from the thread that Tanit provided me -- on and off Sunday afternoon (the subject was “Haunted house”). That night, I had an inspiration to see some English comedy movie on TV (I hardly ever sit in front of the TV let alone watch a movie on TV).

Someone wanted to see a Noel Coward story so went ahead and picked one made in the 1940’s and I said that sounds good. I had no idea the story was about a Séance, etc. After the movie I checked the title and it said “Blithe Spirit” . . . um, I guess something in the sky, I wonder what is going on with my transits . . . By the way, yes, we enjoyed the movie.

As for the “Haunted House” chart, since nobody is suggesting I should post, I will stop here and let “the spirit” rest.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I printed out the chart with current transit and I saw something interesting -- T Mars is close to the Ascendant but this is not what he's talking about. Is he talking about Sirius?


Do you mean the deceased's natal? I suppose that would help with signification but she probably is the Sun. I was also combust in my night terrors chart.

Do you mean Sirius on the Sun in your chart here?

Speaking of haunted house stuff, I had another night terror this week and hadn't had one for years. It was before you posted this though.
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