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Medical horary divergence

 
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 88

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:38 am    Post subject: Medical horary divergence Reply with quote

Hello, everybody!

Iíve recently bought and started to read Oscar Hofmanís Classical Medical Astrology - Healing with the Elements.

I am in the middle of a crossroad and Iíd like to hear your opinion.

In all medical horaries I did I looked at the 6th house for the disease, and the 10th house for the action of course to take to promote healing (the treatment from that moment on).

Hoffman, however, tells one should look at the 1st house (he completely disregards the 6th house) for the disease (his rationale being that the bodyís person is sick, and this is represented by Lord of the 1st) and that the 10th house exclusively indicates the treatment already being persecuted by the sick person, i.e, the present treatment one is doing (usually, those of conventional medicine), and not the treatment one should stick to in the future, and that would be ideal for his disease.

I know that whenever differences of system arise in astrology the best thing is to test them out and see which works better for each one of us, but in this case, since it is a medical issue, I donít quite feel I can start testing a diferent theory with my next clients until I "get it right".

So my question is what is your opinion or your practice regarding these matters?

Does anyone have sources in tradition that defend one or the other approach?

Thank you very very much
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Robert Bailey



Joined: 03 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yair

I am far from an expert in medical astrology, but my understanding of the traditional approach to such matters is:

- the 1st house signifies the querent or the sick party, his vitality, his body, his health
- the 4th house signifies the end of the disease, good or bad
- the 6th house signifies the disease
- the 7th house signifies the physician
- the 10th house signifies the physician's treatment/medicine

See for example William Lilly, Christian Astrology, p. 282 - his first four "Astrological Aphorisms beneficial for Physicians."

My understanding is that traditionally the 6th house was pretty much always looked at to find the disease. But the 1st house was also very important because it signifies the body and life of the querent/sick party.

I would argue it would run counter to the astrological tradition to ignore the 6th house and focus only on the 1st. But it would be equally incorrect to ignore the 1st and focus only on the 6th. Both seem important to me. The distinction is that the 1st house shows the body and health in general, while the 6th shows afflictions to the body and health. Planets in the 1st house or in aspect with the Lord of the 1st would be important in a medical horary as possible significators of threats to the sick party's health or life, but the 6th house is also a valid place to find information on the nature of the affliction.

On the subject of the 10th house - Lilly says the 7th house signifies "the physician" and the 10th house signifies "his medicine." He goes on to say that if the Lord of the 7th is afflicted, "the physician shall not cure" and if the Lord of the 10th is afflicted "his medicine is improper."

From this I would argue that if the sick party is already undergoing medical treatment at the time the question is asked, and is coming to the astrologer for a second opinion on the diagnosis and/or treatment, then the 7th shows the treating physician and the 10th his treatment or medicine. So you could look to the 10th to get an idea of how that treatment is going; the Lord of the 7th afflicted shows the judgment of the physician is faulty, the Lord of the 10th afflicted shows the choice of medicine is faulty.

A fun example of this can be found in Culpeper's Astrological Judgment of Diseases, pp 50-58 (available for free on this very website!). Culpeper visited a sick woman who already had a doctor attending to her. The decumbiture chart had the Lord of the 7th Mars in Capricorn, so it would seem the doctor was very good at his job. But Culpeper says the doctor misdiagnosed the poor woman as having "the pestilence," which apparently upset everyone in the household unnecessarily. Culpeper describes this guy variously as a "French quack" and a "coxcombe" - and he shows this is indicated in the chart because, although in Capricorn, Mars was combust and conjunct the South node. Culpeper says this "clouded his judgment" and "corrupted his practices." Perhaps the doctor was normally pretty good (essentially strong) but having a bad day (accidentally weak)?

So that's what happens if the sick party already has a physician. On the other hand, if the sick party is approaching the astrologer to seek diagnosis and treatment in the first instance, then my own personal view is that the 7th shows the astrologer in his capacity as physician. If I am right, then in that scenario the 10th could show the astrologer's treatment or medicine. It basically depends on who the sick party goes to first, if that makes sense.

I am not sure about using the 10th to show the "ideal" treatment - the sense I get from Lilly and Culpeper is that the strength of the Lord of the 10th shows the treatment's ability to deal with the illness, rather than indicating the proper treatment to be administered. That being said I have not read a great deal of medical horary texts so I would be curious if there are some sources to back up that approach.

Hopefully this helps rather than adding to your confusion!
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Last edited by Robert Bailey on Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 88

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, Robert!

Your answer is incredible, and of course it helps! A lot.

Regarding the 1st and 6th house, this is exactly how I think and proceed.

As for the 10th, very good insights. It is not the way I use it in medical horaries, but very interesting to know this other side.

I see you said you are not a medical astrologer and you donít have a lot of knowledge in the field, but maybe you know something about that: how would you see a better treatment in case the L10 is debilitated?

This would indicate the actual treatment is not working for the person. So suppose she asks you what is better option. What would you do?

BEST
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Robert Bailey



Joined: 03 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: Canberra, Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As usual I was still editing the errors in my post when you replied! Laughing

Glad it was helpful to you!

You asked what to do when you see an afflicted Lord of the 10th. I guess again this depends on whether the sick party has come to you first, or whether you are giving a second-opinion.

If they come to you first seeking diagnosis and treatment, from my perspective an afflicted Lord of the 10th would be the chart's way of warning you that you might make a bad call, so double/triple check everything before giving your opinion. Basically the chart is saying, "Be careful not to $#%@ this up!"

If however they came to you for a second opinion, and you see the Lord of the 10th afflicted, you can maybe get a sense the current treatment is flawed.

As for what to do about it, I guess that comes down to your skill at diagnosing the illness (whether from the chart alone, or the chart plus symptoms of the sick party) and understanding medicine sufficiently to know why the current treatment may not be working and what alternative treatments might be effective.

If, like myself, you have not studied medicine sufficiently to confidently make those calls, perhaps the best thing would be to advise the sick party that they may want to consider changing doctors?

Finally I should be clear that there is a risk in confusing a medical horary with a decumbiture chart - they are pretty similar in many ways and some rules that apply for one will apply well for the other, but it is best to keep them separate conceptually and treat them as different. The quotes from Culpeper regard a decumbiture chart so use with a grain of salt.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 218

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Yair Alon, et al,

Some comments:

Yair Alon wrote:
Hoffman, however, tells one should look at the 1st house


Not "the 1st house" in itself. The planet representing the disease is the dispositor of the ruler of the first house. 99% of the times. There are exceptions. One of those exceptions can be L6.

The "dispositor" notion comes from Lilly; it is not Oscar's idea. To my knowledge, the only astrologer who took the idea from Lilly and studied it in detail, put it to the test, and thus developed and "matured" the idea to a practical degree was John Frawley. And then Oscar wrote a book about it.

Yair Alon wrote:
(he completely disregards the 6th house) for the disease


L6 can be the the cause of disease in certain exceptional horary charts. And L6 can be considered for symptoms, but not the "cause". The distinction between cause and symptom is paramount in traditional healing.

Yair Alon wrote:
(his rationale being that the bodyís person is sick, and this is represented by Lord of the 1st)


No, that is not the rationale.

L1 is the body. If the body is sick something has power over the body. The planet which has power over the body is the significator of the disease "in humoral terms". The dispositor is a literal description of this "power".

[quote="Yair Alon"]and that the 10th house exclusively indicates the treatment already being persecuted by the sick person, i.e, the present treatment one is doing (usually, those of conventional medicine) and not the treatment one should stick to in the future, and that would be ideal for his disease.

Not "exclusively". We have to consider the context and the question asked.

When you go to the doctor he/she will tell you if what you are already doing as a treatment is good for you or not. The way to do that with horary is by looking at L10.

However, if the question is about a potential treatment, then L10 is the treatment you are considering. (Always consider the context.)

The "correct" treatment based on the horary chart diagnosis is given by analyzing several planets in the chart, starting with the dispositor of L1, then L1 itself, etc. That is described in Oscar's book. Only a trained astrologer-nutritionist/herbalist/etc. who has a solid understanding of the working of the elements is able to prescribe accurately. However, some common-sense guidelines can be given even without such training, as long as the "elements" is understood correctly.

Yair Alon wrote:
I know that whenever differences of system arise in astrology the best thing is to test them out and see which works better for each one of us but in this case, since it is a medical issue, I donít quite feel I can start testing a diferent theory with my next clients until I "get it right".


You can test with yourself, friends and pets. And you can test on public figures or any one you are interested in. Continue studying and testing until you "own the knowledge". If you are uncertain it may be better to refrain from addressing certain questions.
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 88

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much for your answer and excellent explanations and clarifications, Felipe.

Do you use this method indicated by Hoffman (coming from Frawley and Lilly as you said)? I would like to know the experience and feedback you had in doing so.

I will surely try to test this "new" ideas (to me) when looking at medical charts. I already work with humoral medicine and its relations to astrology, but I didnít know this method of looking at the chart. It is very interesting, but left me a little insecure.

Thanks again!
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 218

Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yair Alon wrote:
Thank you very much for your answer and excellent explanations and clarifications, Felipe.


You're welcome.

Yair Alon wrote:
Do you use this method indicated by Hoffman (coming from Frawley and Lilly as you said)?


I have used it since 2009.

Yair Alon wrote:
I would like to know the experience and feedback you had in doing so.


You may see some examples on my web site: http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org. We can discuss any of them if you like.

Yair Alon wrote:
I will surely try to test this "new" ideas (to me) when looking at medical charts. I already work with humoral medicine and its relations to astrology, but I didnít know this method of looking at the chart. It is very interesting, but left me a little insecure.


Make sure to have a clear understanding about the difference between symptom and cause as far as the humors are concerned because that is the single point where most astrologers fail when dealing with horary medical diagnosis. Cause and symptoms must be read separately in a horary chart diagnosis ALWAYS.

Eastern medicine diagnoses cause and symptom separately. Horary is the same.

For example: fiery symptoms are not always produced by a fiery cause. One may have a fiery symptom caused by a water excess. And so on. The symptom is usually pretty apparent. A skin rash is fire, for example. But the cause may not be so.

Once that point is clearly understood adopt a technique of your choice and apply it. The technique expounded by Oscar is accurate.

Also, a birth chart shows the temperament and birth constitution. Only horary can determine what imbalance is present now (Prakruti and Vikruti in Ayurveda, for example).
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