I recently read this idea, concerning the horary questions asked by non-astrologers.

The old rule is that the horary chart is set for the moment when the astrologer receives the question. What if the person thinks at a question, writes down the time and then comes to the astrologer with the question data, so that it might be interpreted? Would this be considered as a valid horary query?

John Frawley specifically points out that when the questioner is also astrologer the moment that stands for the horary query is not the moment when the question passes throught the questioner's mind, but the moment when this one decides to consider it as a horary question and draw the horary chart for that moment.

Given the previous paragraph, would you agree with the idea that if the questioner is not an astrologer, it is incorrect to try to delineate the chart for the moment when the question first passed through the querent''s mind?

Any opinions based on your experience and/or common sense ?

I believe this one is pretty much the same question that was covered in the topic "timing a question received by email" in http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... ight=email
(hope the links works, is in horary section)

Some Highlights from Sue:

Lilly says that the hour of receiving the question is when the querent 'propounds his desire unto the astrologer. It is the receiving of the question by the astrologer that Lilly emphasises, not the birth of the question. There can be no chart unless the astrologer understands the question. This to me is the 'birth' of the particular horary chart and takes place at a moment in time in sympathy with the cosmic pattern.

from Tom:

horary(...) REQUIRES the participation of an astrologer. The life will be lived according to the chart whether an astrologer gets involved or not. The same is true of an event, an election ect. But the horary question will not be answered unless the astrologer participates

Based on that is clear that an non-astrologer shouldn?t take the timing all by himself, this is a process client-astrologer. This is not because of professional jealousy :-), and to finally quote Deb:

That?s one of the reasons why I?ve always tried to deter people from asking questions ?to the forum?. In my opinion it?s not a horary, its just a question, because no particular astrologer has been consulted and there hasn?t been that process of the querent submitting the question, the astrologer accepting it and verifying it for indications of ?celestial sympathy?.

My 2 cents for you
Yuzuru

yuzuru wrote:My 2 cents for you

Very valuable coins you've got there ...

Sue wrote:Lilly says that the hour of receiving the question is when the querent 'propounds his desire unto the astrologer. It is the receiving of the question by the astrologer that Lilly emphasises, not the birth of the question. There can be no chart unless the astrologer understands the question.

Based on the above, my understanding is this:

If there is no astrologer, to whom is the querent asking the question ? It is therefore not a question, but merely a thought. And we're dealing not with a horary chart, but an "event" chart (if a simple thought can be assimilated to an event).

And that's why there is the custom to consider that the astrologer is always shown in the 7th house ? (unless of course if the astrologer is the querent)

Very interesting...

Thanks

Siraxi...I'm an idiot. It was EASTERN STANDARD TIME, USA.

Not Central. Sorry! I DID get Virgo 24, thanks.

Hi,

I would say that the time the ASTROLOGER receives and understands the question is what determines the Horary. So if you are a complete novice and know nothing about Horary then you will ask a Horary Astrologer a question and it's all very simple and clear cut that the relevant time is when the Astrologer you ask has received and understood the question.

Likewise if you are a competent Horary Astrologer and a question arises in your mind then you should take note of that time and draw up the Horary chart for when you thought 'oh I must ask a horary question about that one'.

Of course we get into shades of grey here when you are an astrologer and have a question of your own but you're not really pure dead brilliant at Horary. In fact you might only have heard about Horary a couple of months ago, perhaps have read a few pages of Anthony Luis, or Olivia Barclay, say, but still you draw up a chart with the intention of treating it like a Horary. This comes from my experience and I am therefore stating a fact here, which may or may not coincide with the experiences of others. In this case the Horary chart you have drawn up with the intention of doing a Horary interpretation, with even the slightest clue to back it up, is the chart which has made more sense to me.

To give the best advice I'd probably say, take the 'novice' chart and the chart of the 'real' Horary Astrologer (whatever that means anyway - where's the cut-off point?) and look at them both. You may find yourself scratching your head in vain for days at one whilst the other jumps right out and screams an answer at you. In that case you have found the method which works for you.

Hope this helps.

John Frawley specifically points out that when the questioner is also astrologer the moment that stands for the horary query is not the moment when the question passes throught the questioner's mind, but the moment when this one decides to consider it as a horary question and draw the horary chart for that moment

.

Siraxi

Perhaps my recent experience may help.

We celebrated my son's 21st birthday last Saturday. Our family and his partners family arranged for a meal at a chinese restaurant and members of the family were contacted to get an idea of who would be attending. There's nothing worse than arranging something and find that many do not turn up. Anyhow, everyone said that they would be there. Around lunch time, my wife's sister came to visit with a card for my son. She said that she would be going to the restaurant and mentioned that her brother (my wifes brother) is moving a radiator and fitting a socket, but he didn't arrive at her house until 12-30. Ha ha I thought, this looks very much like she will not be coming for the meal. Whilst leaving she said again that she would see us all later on. My wife returned home and I briefed her on her sisters visit. She wasn't too pleased about it, thinking the same as me.

Throughout the day, the question on my mind was, I wonder if she will be there? well, she either will or will not and would know in a few hours. Later on in the afternoon I had a thought. Wouldn't it be nice for my son to see my wife's sisters ex partner again. He could come to the restaurant with us.......but hang on. No, it wouldn't be a good idea for both of them to be there, especially now they have new partners. I really do need to know if she will be meeting with us tonight. Saturday, 14th May 2005, 18:26 BST, 52N55, 001W29 (ASC 29Libra22). What do you think?

John Nelson Hall

Likewise if you are a competent Horary Astrologer and a question arises in your mind then you should take note of that time and draw up the Horary chart for when you thought 'oh I must ask a horary question about that one'.

I don't believe we should ever draw up a chart for a question that simply arises in our mind. Questions arise in our mind continuously. Sometimes they become concerning, sometimes they are resolved of their own accord and sometimes we can resolve them with some effort on our part. I don't believe we should ask a horary without a genuine effort to resolve the situation first. But I agree with John Frawley and others who say that it is when the astrologer is commited to the horary and not when the question first arises in the mind that is the appropriate time.
Bonatti warns against asking a question as soon as it arises and recommends that the querent should spend at least 24 hours turning the question over in the mind before asking. This is just a guideline because sometimes questions arise urgently that need immediate attention. But it needs to be a question of significance that is causing great concern. I think as horary practitioners we should be especially careful of the questions we ask because of the easy access we have to horary. Obviously everyone has different ideas of what is an important question. What one person might consider meaningless, another might spend a sleepless night over so there can be no hard and fast rule about what is appropriate or not. Only we can decide the appropriateness of our own question.

To give the best advice I'd probably say, take the 'novice' chart and the chart of the 'real' Horary Astrologer (whatever that means anyway - where's the cut-off point?) and look at them both. You may find yourself scratching your head in vain for days at one whilst the other jumps right out and screams an answer at you. In that case you have found the method which works for you.

I'm not clear on what you are suggesting here. It seems you are saying to a novice to draw up a chart and then ask the same question of a more experienced horary astrologer and see which chart 'works'. You then end up with two different charts. Surely, this goes against the whole principle of asking the question once and having one valid chart. (Sorry if I have misunderstood what you were saying).

I really do need to know if she will be meeting with us tonight. Saturday, 14th May 2005, 18:26 BST, 52N55, 001W29 (ASC 29Libra22). What do you think?

Did you read this chart given the late ascendant or did you accept the late ascendant as indicating that it was too late to ask this question? I presume your question was specifically whether she will attend the gathering or not.

Hi,

In answer to Sue, what I mean when I say take the 'novice' chart and the 'real' chart, is that if you are a 'competent' Horary Astrologer and someone comes to you with a question and their own time for the question, because they know a little bit of horary, then try both charts (i.e. the time they supplied and the time you understand the question) to see which one seems to describe the situation better. This is what I used to do for the purposes of experimentation/learning and I would find that the appropriate chart to use was the original one that the novice had drawn up.

I think this is an appropriate way to go since we really have to learn from our own experience and we can only do this by experimentation.

Also I agree we shouldn't just spend our whole day doing charts on an endless string of whims, and I have questions going through my head all day every day, but if I have a question which is important enough it then occurs to me to draw up a chart and the moment that it does so is the one I use for the question.

I appreciate that the 'more burning' is the question, the more clear is the chart and it's wonderful to see a chart describe a situation so beautifully. However, when you are practising and studying, you really need to do a lot of charts and it doesn't imply any harm or disrespect to get yourself going through the motions.

I suppose that by the time you get competent you know what to be doing and have found the way that works best for you anyway. I don?t necessarily disagree with your suggestion Susan but thought I?d add that if someone came to me with a problem, whether they had asked the question of themself or of another astrologer beforehand, I would only base my judgement on the horary drawn for my understanding the problem (and my committal to it). That?s because I don?t feel any astrologer can take responsibility for someone else?s horary chart, and you don?t know if an earlier chart will be reliable or revealing of what you are looking for, if you weren?t involved in the process of considering the situation and framing the question.

Despite the fact that we are not supposed to ask the same horary twice, sometimes people have come to me when they have had horary readings elsewhere and have been left very confused and unclear about the advice given, or they feel it was patently wrong or inappropriate. In that case I?d say forget it, the problem still exists and hasn?t been resolved, so if the concern is genuine it will produce a clear chart.

Sometimes I offer an analysis of a horary student?s chart, but this is usually when I know they are keen to understand the theoretical method of processing the chart, it is a ?learning experience? from several angles. Of course we can read other people?s charts, but there is always the proviso with these, that because I wasn?t the originating astrologer, I take no responsibility for the level of usefulness of that chart ? only in showing how it ought to be judged and picking out some important factors that have been missed. That?s never been a problem but let?s face it, good, clear, descriptive charts never need a second opinion and the best way for me to work with a clear chart that I know I can rely on is to be involved in the process from the start.

Also, I?m not sure that the benefits of working on lots of charts whilst you are learning outweighs the demoralising effect of working on any chart with poorly defined symbolism ? which you will get if you are not being discriminate about the issues you are looking at: ie, the closer you get to fundamental issues the stronger the chart. So if you only have a few situations presented to you that are of genuine concern, then to some extent it?s better to supplement the study by testing yourself against published horaries.

In answer to Sue, what I mean when I say take the 'novice' chart and the 'real' chart, is that if you are a 'competent' Horary Astrologer and someone comes to you with a question and their own time for the question, because they know a little bit of horary, then try both charts (i.e. the time they supplied and the time you understand the question) to see which one seems to describe the situation better.

I would not be drawing up a new chart. You cannot have two charts for the same question regardless of whether one is a novice chart and one is from a more experienced astrologer. If a novice came to me with a chart they had drawn up, and this has happened on a few occasions, I would simply help them to interpret and understand the chart they have already drawn up.

However, when you are practising and studying, you really need to do a lot of charts and it doesn't imply any harm or disrespect to get yourself going through the motions.

I don't really agree with this. Deb mentioned that this is one of the worst ways to learn horary and I agree. There's a couple of reasons why I disagree with practicing with your own charts. One is that it is very difficult to be able to read your own chart and be objective when you are generally desirous of a particular outcome. There is the danger of reading the chart in a way that fits the answer you desire rather than reading the answer in the way that the chart is really describing. Objectivity will become easier with more experience but there will always be an element of difficulty with reading your own chart and it requires a certain amount of experience. The other issue is that if we are looking for charts to practice with we can end up asking questions that are not all that important to us just to get a chart. This can lead to all sorts of issues including getting a very unclear chart. There's always people wanting a free chart and it's probably better to get practice this way rather than from our own charts.

Sue wrote:There's a couple of reasons why I disagree with practicing with your own charts. One is that it is very difficult to be able to read your own chart and be objective when you are generally desirous of a particular outcome. There is the danger of reading the chart in a way that fits the answer you desire rather than reading the answer in the way that the chart is really describing. Objectivity will become easier with more experience but there will always be an element of difficulty with reading your own chart and it requires a certain amount of experience.

Yes, this is so true. I find it difficult to maintain objectivity in my own horary questions.
The solution I came up with once was to find a horary partner: the other astrologer read my horary charts, I read hers. But we didn't keep in touch and I'm by myself again.
If anyone here wants to join the club, it'd be great. PM or email me for this purpose.

Thanks to all for the comments to this topic. I appreciate this forum very much, for all the pertinent opinions that one may get here.