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Friends/Relationship?

 
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 143
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Friends/Relationship? Reply with quote



Hi:

This is a relationship horary with something else that I thought was interesting.

This guy has been flirting with me (but never approaching) for some time which has been really confusing particularly as I had given him the cold shoulder in the beginning and at no time returned his flirting. I did become interested though because of his persistence.

I had cast a chart three months ago but it was pretty much indecipherable to me and had a very odd feel to it. This chart seems easy to understand by comparison. I could be wrong, of course. I had also cast a few charts in between in frustration, asking “what is going on?” which were somewhat helpful.


Question: Will we be friends/in a relationship?


The chart is not radical: the planetary hour ruler is the Moon; ASC ruler is the Sun.

The ASC is at a good degree.

I am Sun/Aquarius/6 in detriment, in a partile opposition with the POF in 12, unaspected per the chart rendering but actually conjunct the Moon.

The Moon is also in Aquarius, partile cusp of 7, with dignity by face, under the beams, increasing in light and in a partile sextile with Uranus in 9.

The North Node is the first house; South Node in the 7th.

He is Saturn/Sagittarius/5, with dignity by term and face, occidental of the Sun.


There is no aspect between Sun and Saturn. The Sun’s next aspect is a sextile with Mars. I think this has already occurred - I met a gentleman at a writing group and we ended up taking the same public transit afterward. Not really a friendship or relationship.

The Moon is separating from a conjunction with the Sun and will complete a trine with Jupiter (in 3) before sextiling Saturn, so is translating light from Sun to Jupiter. Perhaps this also refers to the gentlemen from the writing group?

Saturn receives the Sun and Moon by domicile; neither Sun nor the Moon receive Saturn. This is a reversal of the reception picture in the original chart and, in fact, is the only chart where there has been any notable reception from his significator.

No aspect, reception only one way and a significator in detriment: that‘s a big NO.


As well, I stumbled across a thread where forum member Aglaya says that the Moon in the 7th house in her (clients’) relationship charts indicates the quesited has a pregnant wife. Confused Confused I had tried to determine whether he had a partner from the first chart but there were confusing testimonies.

So I think the position of Saturn (slowest planet/unmoving) in Sagittarius (fun-loving/looking for something new) in 5 (house of amusements) disposed by Jupiter (the jovial planet) is finally an accurate indicator of what’s been going on - it was just a game, played for his amusement.

I think the reception changed only after something really bad happened in his life which was reflected in one of the interim charts; I could tell in real life simply by looking at him - he was distressed and lost a lot of weight.

********************

I kept looking at the unaspected Sun and even though I understand that it’s really in conjunction with the Moon, I started wondering if the fact that I had forgotten to turn the aspect lines off was meant to tell me something.

In light of PankajDubey’s recent experience, I began to think that perhaps something was going to go wrong with my eye(s) and it finally dawned on me that the Sun was unconnected - detached, maybe?

My family has a history of detaching retinas and it will probably happen to me at some point so maybe this chart, cast on the heels of PD’s, was meant to warn me that it might happen soon. It’s relatively easy to fix if you go to the doctor right away. (I'm glad PD's turned out to be nothing)

Apparently, too, in decumbiture, the Moon moving into the 7th house is an indicator of illness as the 7th opposes the ASC. Whether this is true as well in horary, I don’t know.

Feedback greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a relationship horary, sun has different role than that of a retinal detachmnent.For the disease , ask a different horary.

SN in 7th , suggests that there are some factors that you just don't know about the relationship or the person , and if 1st and 7th are too far away then I would leave it at that till something changes.

The mutual reception between Jupiter 5th Lord and Saturn 7th lord has fizzled out- Jupiter doesn't complete the aspect.Sun applies to Jupiter but Jupiter in Sun's debilitation sign- so wait and see. Neither sun nor Saturn are very fast movers.

In my horary, Sun was still in Capricorn and cataract is function of ageing so it can still happen a few years later. I had more faith in SN in 7th - the other party being wrong, not necessarily deceiving, because it was a genuine concern of that person.


I think :
SN in 7th doesn't necessarily have to be deception but an unknown factor that could adversely affect the outcome if one persists with a presumed line of thinking.
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mwastrology



Joined: 25 Jul 2015
Posts: 28

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moonbright wrote:
I had cast a chart three months ago but it was pretty much indecipherable to me and had a very odd feel to it. This chart seems easy to understand by comparison. I could be wrong, of course. I had also cast a few charts in between in frustration, asking “what is going on?” which were somewhat helpful.

.... I had tried to determine whether he had a partner from the first chart but there were confusing testimonies.

So I think the position of Saturn (slowest planet/unmoving) in Sagittarius (fun-loving/looking for something new) in 5 (house of amusements) disposed by Jupiter (the jovial planet) is finally an accurate indicator of what’s been going on


I'm sure you've heard how tempting and seductive it is for beginners to keep casting charts on the same topic, and that it's not a good idea. I'm afraid this is a pitfall most of us fall into at some point.

Because a chart is 'easy to understand' doesn't mean it's accurate, and vice versa.... indecipherable charts aren't necessarily inaccurate! It can mean we're too close to the situation to get anything useful out of doing the divination ourselves. This seems to have been going on since about September last year.

I wouldn't use this chart at all, neither for your health concerns about your eyes, nor for any potential relationship issues with this person. Sorry that's not what you want to hear, but it's the truth. I don't see any reason for using this chart other than it's clearer to you than all the others were, and that's not a good reason to use it, rather it's a good reason to question what's been going on with the situation all this time that made it so unclear in the first place. Get to the heart of that, I'd recommend.

I'd repeat what I said in another thread here about 'love horaries', about the pitfalls of learning horary using 'love horaries' in general, and our own in particular. It's a minefield and rarely brings the clarity that students of horary want. I'd address your health concerns through your medical professionals. Obviously there's a role for horary in medical matters but in this case it seems very tangential to bring it into it.

MW
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 143
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pankajiji:

Thanks for your reply and pointing out the reception between Jupiter and Saturn - I had missed that.

The reason I thought maybe a medical issue was being emphasized was the state of my significator, which seemed a little overwrought for a potential romance, seeing as how this guy and I haven't even spoken to each other yet. Smile



Hi mwastrology:

Thanks for your reply. Usually I would agree with what you've stated, however I think it seems important to consider motive as well. From what I've observed, most people who cast multiple charts are looking to change a No answer into a Yes. That wasn't the case here.

I cast the very first chart in an effort to disabuse myself of any illusions that I might have about what was going on, mostly because I couldn't understand why someone his age was flirting with someone of my "vintage". Smile That chart had some very strong symbolism in it but it didn't seem to make sense with the situation (at least as I understood it). This chart was cast as a "will we be friends/in a relationship" question.

The subsequent interim charts (two) were literally: "What is going on?" and actually I think I learned some things from those, both about the situation and about horary.

I had read that a horary chart has a "lifespan" of three months. I don't know whether that's true or not (I didn't read it in Lilly, I don't think) but because of having read it I waited for three months to ask the "friends/relationship" question again, so I thought I was working within an acceptable time frame for recasting the question.

As for trying to understand why the situation was unclear in real life, that is exactly what I've been trying to do, to no avail. So in this case, the astrology has been far clearer (except the first chart), in my mind at least, than anything that's happened in real life.

Since I posted the chart, I've been considering that perhaps this gentleman comes from a remote place and because of a type of "cultural" difference we've both been misunderstanding each other's sub-verbal cues. That can happen here - people often come here from distant/isolated places to find work or go to school. I saw something similar happen when I worked in a university residence, so who knows? What seems apparent is that it's not going anywhere. Smile

Thanks again for your reply.

Cheers.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 143
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

Just wanted to post an update: This gentleman has continued to flirt with me whenever we have seen each other in his 'move toward me then retreat' kind of way and it's been really frustrating. I've created several opportunities for him to speak with me but he hasn't and I was thinking that it might be because he's in his workplace. On one of these occasions he seemed really happy that I was there (I sat near him) but he still declined to talk.

So I finally worked up the nerve this week to discreetly slip him my number and he has not texted nor will he make eye contact with me now. Very Happy

I'm both disappointed and relieved as I kept wondering if I should be doing something and whether some kind of opportunity was slipping away because of my not doing anything but obviously that's not the case!

Cheers.
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maggie



Joined: 13 Jun 2010
Posts: 26
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="moonbright"]Hi:

As well, I stumbled across a thread where forum member Aglaya says that the Moon in the 7th house in her (clients') relationship charts indicates the quesited has a pregnant wife. ... I had tried to determine whether he had a partner from the first chart but there were confusing testimonies. ]

Moonbright, Hi.
I was intrigued as to this quote you mentioned from Aglaya on this Forum - what's her source for saying this? Do you know?
I would have said that Moon in the 7th was the querent thinking about 'the other' person, in relationship questions.
On the other hand, if the Moon is L7 and is in the 7th, then that shows him/her at home. Concerned with him/herself.
Same would apply for any planet that is L7.
Cheers.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 143
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi maggie:

Thanks for your reply. My understanding was that Aglaya had experienced the Moon in 7 being a significant other in many of her clients' charts so it was something she related from her practice. If she had another source for that information I'm unaware of it.

In charts that I've worked on I've come to see any planet on the DSC as significant even if I'm not sure what in particular it signifies, simply because it opposes the querent. If I'm not sure what it means I just go back to the nature of the planet as an interpretation, so Uranus could mean an unstable situation, Saturn a restricting one and so on.

I think I also read that I'm "bewitched" in this chart (Lord of 12 opposing the ASC), but I don't have Christian Astrology handy at the moment to give the reference.

Bewitched, bothered and bewildered...that pretty much sums it up for me in this chart. Very Happy

Cheers.
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maggie



Joined: 13 Jun 2010
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again, Thanks for taking the time to reply! Interesting chart.

No ... if Moon was in the 12th, well, then it could perhaps have been read that you were bewitched. Here, Moon is in the 7th - so this meant you had 'gone over' to him - you were interested and wanted to know if his flirting meant anything. Saturn, his significator, is in the 5th of 'love affairs' - so that's where he was at, I'd say.

If I'd been looking at this chart back in Jan/Feb when you first asked it, I would've said that he 'receives' you as signified by both Moon & Sun being received so strongly by Saturn. But there's no reciprocal reception by you of him which is contradicting the Moon in the 7th! There's an aspect and one-sided reception. So easy contact was likely but a full blown relationship was not very definitely shown here.

Another thing I would've considered, I think, would've been Uranus. Moon is partile sextile Uranus and I would've said this had to do with a "sudden change of mind" - coming from you (Moon).

I think another pair of significators for you and him could also have been looked at : Mars and Venus - where Venus is moving away from - not towards - Mars/him and Venus also moves away from Saturn, aspect-wise.

So, basically, "what was going on" was that you'd have more contact but you would change your mind. He was definitely interested ... but ultimately you weren't.

And you're right - any planet in an angle is worth looking at closely. It's a place of strength. Always.

Thanks for sharing.
Cheers
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 452

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience regarding significant others has been different. I usually see the person conjunct the Sun or sometimes in mutual reception with a third planet. For example, one time a quesited guy was in love with a mutual friend of the querent and he was in the 11th and sextiling the sun in mutual reception, if I remember right. The friend and him later started dating and got married but he had loved her a while. Sometimes Saturn as a third planet is also prohibiting in the chart showing either the significant other getting in the away and/or the rejection feelings themselves that the querent will have. In general, if the person's planet shows no interest in yours but looks preoccupied with another planet, that is a pretty big clue.

The Moon tends to represent the question and generally is an extension of the querent and in romance tends to suggest the querent is the fonder.
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
Posts: 222

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember this chart very well, because it was very similiar to my story! I find quite heart-breaking and very annoying this flirting, flirting and flirting going nowhere sitiuations!

Back to chart, both Sun and Moon are in Auq. , it is obvious that the querent is the most intrested, but Saturn is also very interested in her.

No aspect between Sun and Saturn, but Sun wld. Apply to Saturn some time later. I think it is moonbright's slipping his number to him:) I remember Deb saying in her pages that the receiving planet wld. affact how the applying debilated planet wld. Operate. Saturn is well dignified here. But, the aspect between them is weak. It is an sextile, not a trine.

And I think Saturn and Jupiter in mutual reception suggest it is just a flirting .

Christopher Warnock told me that Saturn was not an "auspicious" planet for relationships charts when he read my chart back in 2016. I shd. admit that I had such a bad Saturn, afflicted by being retro and in the 6th.! This may not be an absolute rule, but still Saturn is an Saturn.

So, despite the fact that chart says there will may be a contact, it will not be ended with relationship.

And this TN in the 1st is just saying that it is for moonbright's good that there will be no relationship with this man ( if we read the SN in the 7th., this relation is harmful to querent. I remember felipe said in one of the threads we shd. Read only one node, but here I just wanted to make myself clear. ) I know this sure from my own chart . It was a "where are we going to chart " . I later found out whay we went nowhere, and thanked God millions time for going nowhere. Really!

Cheers
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be cautious about assuming Saturn as a significator for the quesited showing rejection to the querent. It can also represent a quesited who feels rejected by the querent. The 7th house has a mirroring effect, much like in natal. I am not saying that is true here, but just in general I would definitely not assume that without more info, such as here having Venus also in the 8th and square Saturn. Venus in Pisces in the 8th I think is maybe helping describe that the querent misread the situation quite a bit. I even sort of wonder if he might be homosexual or something like that, where he was not flirting at all. He is also disposited by Jupiter, and in mutual reception, and the Moon is prohibited from aspecting Saturn due to Jupiter (although this trine is a friendly aspect). I honestly do wonder about homosexuality, to be honest, just due to some of how the symbolism seems to be fitting together. But I could be wrong.

In general, if someone is represented as Saturn, they will likely behave in some way that it is helping describe.

The querent also mentioned feeling confused by his behavior and a mutable sign can go back and forth.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Location: Canada

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello maggie:

I had forgotten about this:

The Moon is the natural significator of wives;

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/relationships.html

So I think the Moon opposing the ASC could refer to a wife/girlfriend.


Re: bewitchment

Quote:
We must consider if (Mars) lord of the twelfth afflict (Mercury) lord of the ascendant…for without the ascendant or the ascendant itself, or the Moon be afflicted by the lord of the twelfth, there’s no strong witchcraft…


Lilly, CA, Page 468

I take that to mean that if the ascendant is afflicted by the lord of the twelfth there is witchcraft. Or perhaps that means an affliction is only by a malefic? Not sure.

maggie wrote:

Quote:
So, basically, “what was going one” was that you’d have more contact but you would change your mind. He was definitely interested…but ultimately you weren’t.


The is patently untrue. I did everything I could to facilitate communicating, including giving him my number, as Breeze has mentioned and he didn’t respond.

From my point of view, Uranus relates to my decision to take a course. At the time I cast the chart I had decided to not take it and then shortly after I happened to be walking past the school and suddenly changed my mind, went in and signed up.

Thanks for your comments.

Cheers.
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The Moon is opposing Jupiter. Don't get involved, it's their problem. Jim Critchfield
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This little contretemps has had a significant effect on me which has been quite surprising. The whole thing has had a strange feel to it from the beginning and has defied any type of logical explanation. I have never had something like this happen to me before and my casting multiple charts has been in an effort to understand what is taking place.

And just when I thought I was at the peak of frustration, I came across this article. Liz Greene pretty much hits the nail on the head when she talks about this:

Quote:
…There are also triangles in the pursuit of the unobtainable. These can overlap with family triangles as well as with defensive and power triangles. But there is a special ingredient to the pursuit of the unobtainable, and often the deeper motivation is artistic or spiritual. Sometimes when we seek unobtainable love, it actually has little to do with human beings. But we may translate our creative or mystical longings into the pursuit of those we cannot have. In this way we open up a dimension of the psyche which has more to do with creative fantasy than with relationship. The artist’s ’muse’ is rarely his or her wife or husband. This kind of triangle can involve elements of early family dynamics, and it may also incorporate defensive motives; but it needs to be understood from a different perspective.

…The last group - triangles which reflect unlived psychic life - subsumes all the others…But in the main, when a triangle enters our lives, regardless of the point we are on, there is some message in it about dimensions of ourselves which we have not recognized or lived. If a pattern of triangles keeps repeating, then it is a very strong message, and we need to listen to what it is trying to tell us.

…We now come to the issue of what might really lie beneath the dynamics of triangles - beneath the parental patterns and defences and power-plays and all the other apparently ’causal’ reasons why triangles enter our lives. I believe there is always an element of unlived life in every triangle, and for various reasons it seems we are sometimes unable to discover that unlived life except through the extreme emotional stress which triangles generate.

…There is no formula to cope with the pain of betrayal. But an archetypal perspective can help us to look at things differently, although the pain cannot be explained or imagined away. There is no remedy for this kind of pain. But there is a difference between blind pain and pain that is accompanied by understanding. The latter has a transformative effect. When there is no consciousness, triangles do tend to repeat themselves - different characters, same script. Some triangles are truly transformative. They do break apart an old pattern, and the new relationship is genuinely much happier and more rewarding. Or the triangle serves the purpose of freeing energy, freeing inner potentials, and even if the old relationship is re-established, or one winds up with neither party, everything has changed.

…We might even say that the triangle forms because there is resistance to change, so whatever is seeking expression from within is experienced through projection. When such a triangle breaks up, the projections come back home again. Psychic energy is released, whether it is through death or the voluntary relinquishing of someone. The timing of this is not accidental. In one or two or even all three parties, unconscious issues have finally reached a point where they can be integrated, even if this is expressed by simply letting it go.

(Emphasis mine)

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/lgreene.html

This is exactly what’s been happening. I started writing creatively three years ago as a way to fill some time due to unemployment and other factors in my life. Since this person, whose name I don’t even know, entered my life, he has inspired one poem, which is directly about him, and one short story, one short screenplay and one feature length screenplay, which are less about him than inspired by him. In addition, this whole thing has prompted a re-examination of some issues from the past, issues that I had dealt with to a large degree before but as everyone may be aware, these things are sometimes like onions with many layers that need re-examining again and again.

I think this idea of triangles has some useful implications for us as horary astrologers particularly when we come in contact with people who want to keep casting charts about the same person. If there’s some way that we can guide them to explore what the deeper meaning of their fixation might be, what the unlived or possibly unexamined or unhealed parts of their lives are, then maybe we are closer to helping them enlarge their creative experience, or heal some wounds, or both.

I’d be interested to hear how other astrologers approach this issue in their practice.

Thanks very much to Deborah Houlding for posting the article.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
Posts: 143
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi:

Here's something else that might be helpful to astrologers (and their clients).

I recently finished reading a book called "Unrequited: Women and Romantic Obsession" by Lisa Phillips which I found very interesting and useful. The author outlines historical examples of romantic obsession and also uses her own and other present day examples to show how romantic obsession can drive other behaviours (creative, etc.) and create significant turning points in women's lives. She also outlines some of the theories behind romantic obsession and some ways that the "spell can be broken" using modern therapeutic techniques.

Very interesting and informative.
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The Moon is opposing Jupiter. Don't get involved, it's their problem. Jim Critchfield
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sabumnim



Joined: 22 May 2017
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Moonbright:

Thank you for your interest in Horary Astrology.

I am a modern horary astrologer and, as such, I bring a different type of spin to the ballgame of horaryland.

Unfortunately, the answer to your question is 'no,' your relationship is not going to get serious, either as a romance or friendship.

Regarding the validity of this chart, you made it clear that the chart was to clarify an earlier question, so no harm in asking, as long as your mental intent was still in effect ?

You, as querent, are ruled by the Sun, as the ascendant is Leo. He is ruled by Saturn, as the ruler of the 7th house.

The radix Sun in Aquarius is debilitated, chilled, being placed in the 6th house of Virgo, a cadent house to boot. Virgo is not a sign of romance; rather, it is the sign related to work and health. Hence, your initial reaction to him when he started flirting was coolness, aloofness, typical of Virgo and the 6th house. Also, Sun in Aquarius is further debilitated, (opposite of Leo) and notoriously detached and who gives a 's,' typical of Uranus ruled people ! LOL

There is a red flag in this chart, actually several, which others have already observed.

The radix Moon, (r. 12) which rules things 'behind the scenes' and things unbeknownst to yourself, is found "angular" on the cusp of the 7th house, albeit on the HIDDEN side of the 7th house. While the Sun and Moon were once conjunct, the Moon (co-ruler of the matter?) is moving into HIS domain ?

In horary work, an angular planet, especially if a significator of the question asked, often steals the thunder of all the other players in the chart. It often brings to the foreground, a very important CLUE or point.

The 7th house is simply put, YOUR competition, your rival(s) ? What this means is that there is another woman involved with this man, but because the Moon is on the hidden side of the cusp, he is not disclosing this to you for different reasons ! Probably, because he doesn't want to hurt your feelings?

There are other factors that show the situation is hopeless:

1. Sun is unaspected to Saturn (his ruler) and makes no other positive aspects. That is not an aspect of relationship, but isolationism.

2. Sun is opposite the Part of Fortune, located in the 12th house of undoing, indicating unfortunate and or limited circumstances and or plain misfortune.

3. South node conjunct Neptune in the 7th house. Not auspicious. The other party is not all that they seem. However, you are looking at the relationship with some degree of "pie in the sky," yourself, and it forebodes not a good ending.

4. Regarding Saturn in Sagittarius (his ruler) we must remember that Sagittarius is the sign of the bachelor. So, he may not be married, but is still seriously committed to someone else, as suggested by radix Moon in applying aspect to Saturn.

As the Moon rules his house of work and co-workers, it is possible that the other woman works with him, as well.

Good luck in your affairs !


S.
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