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How far are we defined by our birth moment?

 
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 674

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:27 pm    Post subject: How far are we defined by our birth moment? Reply with quote

Both born again Christians and "magicians" rubbish astrology by saying that God changes their sign, or that they can be anything that they want to be, which always seems to be odd for Crowleyites whose philosophy is about their "true will", which surely isn't any random thing they want?

And then you have David Icke saying that we aren't the person whose name we bear in this lifetime, we are infinite being having a particular experience. Yet while we are on this earth, all that happens to us or that we think we do is according to the birth chart for the moment we were born?

Our birth chart will usually indicate some negative experiences, which anybody would choose to avoid if they could, and most people don't have the things they would choose. Our current era is not typical; I was just reading a book called "The Classic Slum" by Robert Roberts, written by a man born in 1905 in Salford, first hand history, and those people didn't have choice about their lives, and even though our era is manifested differently, I don't think that has changed in any real sense. Even when we think "we" are making choices, when you look at the transits to our birth charts these are clearly indicating these events.

So is it true to say that we are infinite beings, as David Icke claims, or do transits to our birth chart describe our "choices"?


Last edited by Fleur on Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Aleister Crowley rubbished bad Astrologers but was an astrologer himself. It is a long time since I studied occult stuff but might contend that searching for ones true will and seeing what your chart holds for you are not mutually exclusive.
I used to be a pagan and am now CoE so born-again Christian opinion theology has little appeal and neither does new age positive thinking
Watching mystery chart posts over the news it often happens that few can tell the nativity of a saint from a sinner and I would Like to think that we do have a moral choice but it ain't so simple in life
Matthew
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 674

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:
Well Aleister Crowley rubbished bad Astrologers but was an astrologer himself. It is a long time since I studied occult stuff but might contend that searching for ones true will and seeing what your chart holds for you are not mutually exclusive.
I used to be a pagan and am now CoE so born-again Christian opinion theology has little appeal and neither does new age positive thinking
Watching mystery chart posts over the news it often happens that few can tell the nativity of a saint from a sinner and I would Like to think that we do have a moral choice but it ain't so simple in life
Matthew


I think magicians, and especially new agists, believe that they can change what is in their birth chart.

It is very hard work and requires a lot of concentrated study to get into a chart, so few can tell much about charts unless they do that. I am talking about what an astrologer can observe from intensely studying a chart, not some casual look. And I know I get very tired after a while looking at a chart, and have to come back to them later. And when looking at other people's charts, especially those of famous people, what really strikes you is that you don't really know much about their lives, or what a particular transit did to them.
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 183
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur I am in broad agreement with you. I can't abide the modern "have it all " psychological astrology. It seems to suggest that the restrictions and limitations of life have been abolished and that if you encounter them in your own life then you're not trying hard enough !

I studied Robert Zoller's course and he is of the opinion that modern astrologers have lost the art of prediction. He regards us as having very little free will. For when studying predictive astrology you arrive at the inescapable conclusion that our lives do appear, for all practical purposes, to be mapped out for us.

I have gone through my own chart with a fine tooth comb. I work with symbolic arc directions (not solar) and have seen my late parents' deaths indicated in my chart (Neptune directions), our dear pet dog's accident and his death! My MC directed to the degree and arc minute of my niece's ascendant the day she was born. When my parents got married my father's natal Moon directed to the exact degree of my radical south node so there was a connection showing in his chart even before I was born!
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vicki wrote:
Fleur I am in broad agreement with you. I can't abide the modern "have it all " psychological astrology. It seems to suggest that the restrictions and limitations of life have been abolished and that if you encounter them in your own life then you're not trying hard enough !


I agree with you though perhaps on different grounds. On past experience doubting natal astrolog does not go down well here so for now

From time to time she changes the state
Of wealth in the world,shifting vain commodities
Among families and nations, at a rhythm and rate
Beyond human grasp; thus some countries
Are strong, others weak, but all obey her sentence......your knowledge exerts no influence on her

I am not sure if the last sentence applies to you though

Matthew
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:
Vicki wrote:
Fleur I am in broad agreement with you. I can't abide the modern "have it all " psychological astrology. It seems to suggest that the restrictions and limitations of life have been abolished and that if you encounter them in your own life then you're not trying hard enough !


I agree with you though perhaps on different grounds. On past experience doubting natal astrolog does not go down well here so for now

From time to time she changes the state
Of wealth in the world,shifting vain commodities
Among families and nations, at a rhythm and rate
Beyond human grasp; thus some countries
Are strong, others weak, but all obey her sentence......your knowledge exerts no influence on her

I am not sure if the last sentence applies to you though

Matthew


I think by that you mean the rhythms of fate are absolutely not to be changed by anything, not even an astrologer's knowledge.

I believe that astrologers doing it properly, and most of it is useless rubbish, and any of us, such as Vicki and myself, who have studied astrology with a fine tooth comb for ourselves, rather than just parroting some rules, even though we know our knowledge is limited we know that sometimes we have hit on something and that knowledge is true, and we know how little most other astrologers know. As Vicki says, the art of prediction is almost dead. New age astrologers don't even think it is important to look at the birth chart, they just give their opinion based on the new age "philosophy" they have paid for workshops to learn, and apply that trite omni philosophy to everyone and charge for it.

Astrology is Uranian, it is something that lies outside of time (Saturn). We aren't "supposed" to be peeking at this stuff, but Uranus fates us to be able to do so, and it is our will to do so.

So yes, at times some of us do really see into Time. And the more we work at it the clearer it becomes that nothing changes the fate that we are reading. We can't change that fate. Our knowledge does not enable that. Yet the Gnostics taught salvation through knowledge.

So I am wondering what the purpose is in being able to see the future, and also the past and why it happened the way it did.

In a person's chart their are usually several separate threads going on at any time. Maybe just the re-assurance that there are other things happening in their lives at the same time as the area that is maybe fated to fail at that time - yes I know you have to tread carefully, and it has to be them who says it - and maybe it is actually better to understand that some things are fated and it is not your fault or anything you did or could do, things just happen because it says so. I think that is far better than the new agists telling people that they control everything, therefore if their career fails it is because they aren't trying hard enough.
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
Posts: 183
Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Matthew for the Dante quote!

Also you wrote :-
"On past experience doubting natal astrolog does not go down well here ..."


I'm afraid I don't quite understand. Perhaps you could enlighten me!

Btw I notice you say you moved from being a pagan to being C of E. I haven't come across it that way round!

I moved from C of E to Atheism and now to what might be best described as Gnosticism. Such is life's rich tapestry !

Fleur yes you're so right about astrology being "out of time". Exactly what I think.
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Fleur for you reply and I am glad you liked Dante Vicki.
I would not be here if I really thought astrology was all rubbish and Fleur you had a head start on me by studying Zoller
The previous contention was when I quoted a passage by Ibn Ezra about how a natal chart can be trumped by mundane and other matters. For instance a nativity could suggest a long life but if your country goes to War you could die young whatever. Some were indifferent but I do not think that the teachers of the Astrolgy Schools were too happy
I may see you in the mundane forum as I giving some thought to the US election
Regards to you both
Matthew
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atrojo



Joined: 19 Feb 2017
Posts: 3
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really would like to belive that it affects on our personality and defines who we are but I am still really sceptic about it. One thing I have noticed - my friend who were borned during winter are really into this kind of weather. ALL OF THEM. And when I speak with the spring/summer-people they hate cold weather, snow etc. Strange.
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SteveGus



Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 47
Location: Southern Indiana

Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask a parent with more than one child. I suspect all of them will be keenly aware that their children have noticeably different personality traits. They will understand that their children were born with certain switches that govern their temperaments preset to specific positions and can't be reprogrammed.

These traits will be persistent and consistent from one year to the next. They will endure even when they are annoying or inconvenient, and cannot be wished or scolded away. They might be changed by life experiences, but the kind of experience that alters personality tends to do a lot of collateral damage. And likewise, attempting to overcome them by force of will probably does more harm than good.

I don't have any empirical trouble with the notion that a person's temperament is fixed at birth. It seems to confirm the ordinary human experience.
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La hardiesse de son contentieux / Le pont rompu, cité de peur pasmee.

- Nostradamus, Centuries 3:81
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