Will we marry?

1
I know this is thought of as one of the top five most annoying horary questions to ask, but I have to ask it.

At the ripe age of 42, I'm finally living with the love of my life. I've never lived with a man seriously long term in this way, and it feels like we are like living on Cloud 9 alll the time. It's really a dream come true for me. I had no idea this much happiness was possible and I wonder how I lived the past 20 years without it. (Painfully, that's how). Astrology had predicted I would only meet the man for me when I hit age 44/45, so I suppose this was a bit early. I pray daily that it will just last. Despite the pain of decades, I am really blessed. I wish we'd met sooner, but I cant ask for more.

I personallly would love to make the commitment official, but given my age and his past, I don't know if it is in the cards. I would probably be OK settling for cohabitation for 20 years or until death do us part, but deep down I would feel "second rate" longer term if I wasn't his wife.

Will we marry within the next year? (I put a time on it so as not to be open ended).

Early ASC = too early to tell.
He's Cap in my 6th house, about to come into his own. We're not aspecting unless you take him as Sun. Then we sextile in 4 degrees.

Can that be taken as a yes or is it way too weak given that it is secondary significators? I personally am not a fan of secondary signifs so i tend to dismiss them> Curious outside input.

http://imgur.com/a/vOl8A


[as an honest p.s. -- I did ask this 2 mos back but at that time he was not yet officially divorced and the chart showed blockage between us so i wanted to at least ask after his divorce cleared, which it now has. If this chart is invalid as a result then I can post the first one...]

2
Hi Polina

Could you expand on your own judgement of the chart?

What are your own thoughts on the chart? Saturn is partile conjunct Mercury - is there a child involved? Could you run through the significations and provide a fuller explanation of your own thoughts on the chart?
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

3
Hi Paul,
My partner has 2 grown (25 year-olds, give or take a year) children but I have none. I want a child and have wanted one all my adult life, but I have not broached the subject yet with him because despite my age, our relationship is new, my relationship with him is equally important, and I wanted to give us time to sort of "stabilize" the relationship. I know a child would change a lot for both of us. But it is something I want. I planned to ask him next month over our holiday vacation when we're not distracted by work...

In the chart I'm Cancer/Moon sitting in my 5th. I'm silly in love with him (Neptunian fog daily) and also want a child. Probably why I'm in the 5th.

He is Cap in my 6th applying to: Jupiter, Mercury and Uranus. That is all he touches in the chart. Jupiter rules HIS 5th of children so he is apparently aspecting his Jupiter child there (?) In 1 degree of time? Maybe? BUT since he has live children already I have no way of knowing what in the chart would indicate future child with me versus his already living children.

We dont use Uranus in horary so I will dismiss it for now, as it's a modern. And Mercury would be my future potential offspring, which he's conjuncting. I suppose that's the only way to judge it, is ignore his 5th signif since it can be his children who were already born. (And then he has two so if he had a third, they cant all be jupiter...)
Mercury not a great sign for a child as Virgo is considered barren and brings problems with it in terms of pregnancy.

What I do not know is why he is in my 6th house, that concerns me, as if he is "bad for my health" (but as far as I can tell, he's not!) or else in his own 12th of hidden something or other.
It could mean the child inside him is ill and therefore I would miscarry (again) if I had one via him? That is my ony guess because it happened before with a previous partner. The only saving/helpful point might be that Jupiter from the 5th is applying to that Sat/Merc conjunct. But I do not like the feeling of them both sitting in the 6th house at all.

I wish I knew what the 6H placement meant. I could take it as "serving" because he has Virgo rising natally...and our relationship seems to have that theme in it strongly, that he serves but wants to be served too. That obviously would have to change as well if a child came into it, as the child would be served in first priority (by me).

In case of any relevance, although the degree is off, my natal rising sign is also Cancer, same as this chart. The first chart I asked on this question, my rising degree and the chart's rising degree were identical.

I dont know what that Merc/Sat partile conjunction means. The unborn child is of inside him (?) But if he isnt meeting up with me then it's not a good sign.

As one more note, I feel really uncomfortable asking him about marriage for a number of reasons. It is hard to put into words. I plan to ask him about a child because in order of priority and biological limitations I have to "cover that base" first. If he says no he doesnt want one, I need to know that sooner as well. Also marriage could be a moot point for any number of reasons (he may not want a legal marriage, it could create issues or benefits if we stay legally unwed in terms of taxes etc etc). On the one hand ihe is very traditional and I am curious if I say I want a child if he wont say "we have to get married first." It wuld not surprise me if he said that. But if he doesn't say that then I will presume he could care less if there's a legal bond or not. I'm not interested in his money - he is losing a lot of what he worked hard for during his current apartment sale and the post-divorce issues. I was convinced I'd have to be a single mother and do it all mysef financially anyway so I am still prepared to do that at this point. What i mean is, I'm not a gold digger and if he said it was a financial issue to have a child, I'd say then I will take care of that part but i'd stil want a child from him in any case.

Marriage to me is really sacred, it's something I've wanted for 20 years and my throat chokes up when I think of even speaking of it. So this is not something I feel I coudl ask him. If he wanted /wants to marry me, he's a man in a very traditional culture, and he would ask if he wanted to. I used to be Ok with the idea of "cohabitation forever". But i realize now that living with him i really would like the official status. This sounds stupid because my entire life status has been SO NOT important to me. That is my approach to the topic. Hence the horary.

Am not sure if that helps at all (?) Happy to provide more info or give more insights but not sure quite where to start...

4
Thanks Polina

I think it's clear that really what you're focusing on now is a child, and that you want to be with this man. Thank you for being more honest about this as the chart itself was showing a large focus on children that was absent from your initial post.

You gave asked about whether you'd marry this man within the year to put a limit on the post but I think it's at least equally true that you want to marry as quickly as you can so as to focus on having a child, as you likely think that marriage is the quickest way to secure that need right now.

He is Saturn, partile conjoined Mercury and Jupiter, his turned 5th, slowly applies to and receives Saturn. Venus sits in the 7th house and is likely the woman he has just divorced, I think it's likely she's the mother of his children or at least highly involved with them because she also applies to Jupiter and she receives Jupiter.

Jupiter is in many ways an integral part then of this situation because it seems both parents (assuming the woman is the mother) are focused on their children and doing what's best for them. It's possible the woman he divorced is just the mother of one of them either.
Do you have much of a relationship with them yourself? I think it's clear that for now the major focus for this man is on making this, already painful time, less negatively impactful on his children. The focus on the 6th is likely indicating that really he's probably not in a place to act freely and is instead acting in the best interest of others.

Unfortunately I don't see that you will marry in the next year, the best we can make from the chart is the applying sextile from Moon to the Sun, but this is just not indicative of marriage to me and suggests more of a relationship outside the context of marriage and that there may be delays in bringing whatever desires you have here to fruition - perhaps he wishes to take things more slowly for his children.

Do you know of the health and well being of his children? It could be that the 6th is a focus because he's worried for the well being of one or both of them right now?
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

5
Hi Paul,
I appreciate your reply and your time - thank you.

To your questions first: Both of his children are healthy adults. The son runs his clothing store, just got married himself and that young couple live separately. The daughter (younger of the two) is in art school and lives in a dormitory but not with the mother. Neither live with their parents. Neither have any health problems. He himself (my - what do i call him? live-in boyfriend? sounds very 16 years-old ish given we're both over 40) had health issues last year including an emergency appendicitis surgery but he is in good health now as far as that goes.

Can the 6th be *only* "doing his duty" as you said, and acting in ways he think is best for his children? If so then that would explain the 6th house because i'm fully sure health issues are not a topic of concern for him or for his children.

I did want to clairfy one misassumption you made. You said it is "equally true that I want to marry as quickly as possible to focus on having a child." That is not quite the case. Marriage will not guarantee that a man will agree to have a child anymore than getting pregnant would guarantee that a man will then marry you (me). but I am stuck in limbo since I am not his public wife....and I dont have 3 or 4 years to wait to conceive. Combining the two, it makes me feel slightly second rate (she was good enough for him to marry but then why am I not?)

As a sign of his serious-ness to me, marriage would quell my concerns to a great extent. Knowing that I'm not wasting time and knowing that we can create something normal and official, ie a regular family. Having a child is a separate issue from marriage (in my mind at least), in any case.

When we met, before moving in together, I asked how he felt about having another child. He said (and I quote) he would "not be opposed to it."
But that's different from actively helping to conceive one, of course.

As I'd noted, I had planned to become a single mother and had in fact taken extensive measures to do so (artificial insemination attempts four times) prior to our meeting, upon advice from a wise astrologer who told me at age 38 that I was out of time and should not sit and wait to meet Mr right anymore. I have 3 children in heaven now, but no live offspring.

Anyway for me I admit this is very depressing news, but I appreciate having the facts ahead of time as it will help me control my emotions going into the holiday season, knowing his reaction in advance is not going to be moving towards marriage or a child in the next year.

6
Paul, I would take Mercury partile conjunct Saturn as resembling a "yes" to marriage, but the VOC moon in the 5th suggests that Polina's present situation is unlikely to change. That's good for a happy status quo, but not suggesting a move towards marriage or a child.

Neither Mercury (detriment but in its own terms) or Saturn (no essential dignity) seems super strong; and in the 6th house, I wonder if there just isn't a sufficient commitment to pull off some major new developments in the relationship.

Venus in the 7th does suggest that perhaps the severance from the first wife is not 100%.

Does this seem like a reasonable interpretation to you?

Do you think the 6th house has particular meaning, beyond being cadent? I checked Rex E. Bills, and he gives a secondary meaning of the 6th as "disappointments", notably in relation to marriage (12th from the 6th.) Possibly there is some lingering carry-over from the man's first marriage that is affecting Polina's relationship now.

Polina, I am not saying any of this to depress or worry you. Rather, I am trying to learn how to do a better job of horary readings, so thanks for sharing your question. Being in love is a wonderful thing, and many long-married people would envy the obvious sense of happiness you feel in your relationship. If it's not everything you want in life, right now, it seem like some sweet consolation.

7
It's Ok waybread - I'm already worried :-?

I had planned to wait to ask about a child until New Years but now i feel i have to ask now. I know that for his wife he paid for everything - bought her new cars, etc, was 100% provider for the family-- and was informed yetserday by a girlfriend that no other woman in his culture would agree to split our rent as i have done...that he has a "sweet set up" with me and a ton of freedom (meaning no marriage but companionship, cohabitation and all its benefits and no financial requirement towards me either).
In his defense, i do not know his current financial situation other than it is presumably strained, I know his busines is not bringing in money so he's relying on salary only (which is not what it used to be). he had told me that all his money is tied up in his apartment (that is for sale) and i believe(d) him. I have no idea how much he earns tho as we do not share salary figures, I run my own business and he has two of his own (employment plus side business). But in his culture, paying for the woman's food/clothing/shelter and gifts is a sign of commitment and love in most cases...
i wonder if he had asked her to pay half rent too, when they met at age 20 or not... :-?

I am now really concerned if i am not respected enough. The women in this culture know how to wring a man dry financialy (case in point, his ex will get half of a home worth 2 million when this sells altho she didnt pay a dime or work to provide it). That has never been my style and i morally disagree with it (hence single at 42!). But then I look at what he did for her and why am i not enough that he would not do it for me too?? Simply because i do not put my foot down and say "I think you can afford to pay my rent sir"??

I realize this strays from the questino but I use it to illustrate a word you mentione (waybread) namely "commitment". If that isn't there, then what is this relationship about?

Yes there is love but I've had the rug pulled out from under me billions of times with other men so why would this heavenly cloud be so different? Its just that it is SO heavenly, I cannot possibly beleive he's openly deceiving me or stringing me along for his own purposes. (?) (And i'm not implying that anyone here implied that from the reading. But to me, if he's not willing to commit then that's what it boils down to really...)

8
Polina, I don't know what your natal chart looks like or what as been your prior experience with men.... but mistrust is apparently a big issue for you. Sometimes mistrust is fully justified, but at other times it can damage an otherwise good relationship. It's hard to feel at ease in a relationship where your partner thinks you're not being completely honest.

Is it possible that, given traditional marriage and relationship norms in your BF's culture, that he feels happily liberated with you? If so, and you love him a lot, the "no strings" or "not too many strings" attached may be what he values with you in a more western type of relationship.

Especially if you want to enjoy the holidays with your BF, maybe hold off a bit on pressuring him. Venus in the 7th house makes me wonder if he's still got some commitments involving his (ex) wife: you mentioned selling a home.

Traditionally the 5th house rules one's children-- actual or hoped-for. A more modern interpretation is that the 5th also rules love affairs. With your moon in the 5th, you would also seem to value this side of your relationship.


This chart doesn't mean there will never be a right time to raise the issue of marriage and a child, because you have your legitimate concerns and desires, too. Only that this particular chart isn't so promising. One reading of such an early degree rising is that, "It is too soon to tell." Maybe in a few months' time you will both feel more clarity about your relationship.

9
Hi waybread,
Thanks for the reply and shifting away from the chart for a minute. Yes I'm sure that the difference in cultures is a big draw for my boyfriend. He said after we met "what benefit is there to being 'settled'" And i understood from his comment, in shock actually, that he admired my "unsettled" (no property owned) lifestyle, whereas, from my point of view, I envy his. Or his previous life I suppose.

And yes he is selling the apartment that he used to live in where the wife is now - and correction, the daughter too (they will then buy one apartment and move out while by bfd buys a separate one ie splitting the proceeds).

I feel second rate though because still there is a financial burden on me whereas the women in his culture when you have a family, they are "taken care of". not necessarily in the lap of luxury but the house or home is paid for so they can focus on domestic things. I work full time and i didnt even think twice about paying half of the rent. But in his eyes this must create a HUGE difference in value "how cool, i dont have to pay for her!" and it makes me feel used, knowing that he DID pay for the wife...for 20 years. We can't have a child because things aren't settled and also that implies financially, and YET i work but she didnt. To me it seems a double standard (?)

I know I should not compare but the issue really stings. I have never met or seen her. We do not discuss her, as I know better but all this is on my mind lately.

I have been so upset that I finally asked about having a child last night. I knew I could not wait another month, it would have destroyed my nerves not to ask now. His reaction coincided with the chart for what it is worth. He said that he is not opposed to it, having a child would be a great idea esp now when he's older and can appreciate it, bc with his other children he was never around & was too young to appreciate..but that he's not stable now, (we are renting), and a child requires staiblity and he wants to at least have his own (new) home (after this sale/purchase/division process finishes). that all sounds great but it can also just be excuses. As soon as the sale process concludes there can be other issues. There is never a "good time" for these things.

We are looking at March at the soonest by the time it's all done paperwork wise. I will be 43 then.

I see and respect his 1) honesty and 2) practicality but time is not on his or my side and a child doesn't need a spanking new fancy apartment. They need parents who love them and a roof and food. At least at first. So I do not feel we have time to set all the ducks in a row first and get it all perfect. He has very high standards for living and clothign and food and I do not. So while I say March, that's like best case scenario, as then there is the biological (go get hormone panels done, see where we are health wise) factor to start addressing. In short, I see zero happening before next summer or fall at all based on what he told me last night.

So if we project further, I'll be turning 44 at the start of 2018. and astrologically my ferttility drops off then (I had an astrol/fertility reading done and next year is really the year I have to try...)

My question now is how can i find out what other components to his "stability" are required? What I mean is: If I "lower my value" even more by offering to pay financially for EVERYTHING the child needs ever, would he agree? Is this an issue of finance or not really? Does he just plain NOT see me as "wife and mother" material ever, ie he is post divorce and wants to "play" so great sex and romance are in the cards but NOTHING that might spell of commitment or ...? also why is he with me? Is it BECAUSE i'm a ticket to another culture if he wants to move? (which i know he does)?

if I had a crystal ball that told me I cannot and wont marry this man bc he doesnt want to, and that I will not have a child with this man bc it will be one thing after the next with excuses, then I have NO CLUE how to start the soul searching as to whether to leave him and become a single mother (with a lotof $ lost and alot of hope that artificial insem works, bc its not a given that it will) OR do i stay and content myself with having true love.

Why do I have to choose?

10
Why do you have to choose?

Maybe you won't, but as we both know, life isn't fair.

If a child is your highest priority right now, maybe you could have The Next Baby Talk with him, but then there is no guarantee that the stork (your reproductive capability) will cooperate. If you should be unable to have a baby, how far would you nevertheless be willing to push the boundaries of your relationship?

If your BF's ex-wife never worked, he will probably have to pay her alimony, and may be legitimately concerned about how his finances will work out. He may have a financial separation agreement that covers additional provisions for her or the child living at home. With your current living-together arrangement, he may be unclear as to how your relationship will work out for the longer term if you haven't been together for a long time.

Polina, I am not taking your BF's side, by any means, but if you love this man, there are some good ways to push him away and out of your life, which is to lean heavily on him to produce a lifestyle for you that wasn't part of your original agreed-upon arrangements.

I grew up in a generation in the US where middle class women like my mother never worked, and for an educated, talented woman, the extreme financial dependence that 100% domesticity created was not necessarily happy. With no recent job experience and no pension in her own name, she felt trapped at your age. Financial independence and meaningful work would have boosted her self-worth and given her some more options in life, but my father would have taken it as a big affront to his professional status and capability as a competent provider. If you did have the option of staying home full time, you might want to work out your personal financial prospects for your near- and longer-term future, with or without your current employment.

I think it would be helpful to let go of whatever you believe a husband would owe a woman from your BF's culture. I don't know your BF's background, obviously, but am guessing he is from a traditional Hindu or Muslim society where the wife may not need to work, but her "privileged" status comes with a lot of gender inequalities and social norms that would bother most modern women. I am retired now but during my career I met women from such societies who had moved to North America, and were happily employed in demanding professional careers as a dual-career couple. So even in their cultures, the status of women is changing when they live overseas.

Speaking astrologically, I wish this chart gave us the answers you want. You can post a new chart if the question is significantly different. This might be something about your fertility or prospects for having a healthy child. This query was simply about marriage. If I read it as a question about your fertility we get the same issues (early degree rising, VOC moon) which doesn't help the answer.



With all good wishes, W.

11
Hi waybread,

I think the issue here is that there *was no* initial agreed-upon arrangement with us living together in terms of finance. He asked me "will you move to my city"? I said yes. Then he said we will look for 1 bedrooms and he asked if I could pay X amount in rent and I said yes.

We did not discuss who would pay for what. I had assumptions based on what I knew of his past and lifestyle. It didnt occur to me he was going to change those with me.

When we met he had told me he was 10 years divorced. Turned out it wasn't true, he was still under the same roof with the wife and the "sometimes at home" 22 yr old daughter. Now he claims the relationship died 2 years ago. I have no idea when it died really. I only know the divorce was finalized *after* he and I started dating. Knowing what I knew of his income (he told me the cars he had in the past, and from his clothing it was clear he was well to do), I had no idea i'd have to be fending for myself in the relationship. For me part of the draw IS to be taken care of so that I can BE a mother and wife. When we first met he was asking me to do things like iron his shirt and cook breakfast. It was fine, i'm happy to, but I was thinking "how am i supposed to do this at 8am when I've got to get MYSELF to work too?" As I see it he didnt really "register" the idea that if you are paying for your wife to stay home, she has the time to do those things. if your wife runs her own business and is fully self sufficient financially, you cant then expect her to have the time to be a full time housewife as well - it has to be one or the other, or a combination, but something has to give.
(now he is ironing his own shirts each morning btw!)...

I did not (and do not) feel comfortable asking someone "can you pay for me" but I understand now that I should have maybe asked. Although how, or when, I have no idea.

As for his culture - he's not Indian (tho it doesnt matter really). His culture is rather western. Most women here work. And most families are poor. He's just one of VERY few who has been successful enough that his wife didnt have to.
As I'd mentioned I already have done things such as project my own finances for being a single mother and how long I could work just part time to cover expenses. this is with just me and a child. I am not about to support a man as well because I dont earn enough even in the best of years.

As to asking another chart, I wont ask about fertility because if he's not "in the game" the question is a moot point. I wont conceive if there's no male to conceive with.

I am concerned about the relationship because I do not know why he is with me if he was providing for someone for so long and now isn't providing for me. I cannot shake the feeling that maybe he does love me but is with me for some OTHER reason -- either financial or i dont know what else. I see love in his eyes and his affection for me is strong - and the charts support this too -- but I do not understand what is going on here, why did he leave her after so many years? If it was a sudden decision when he met me, then what happens if he meets smoeone else?

Am I just a rebound? Was he looking for an excuse to move from her to someone else without being alone, and I showed up and "sort of fit the bill"? OR did he too fall head over heels for me and the marriage was (as he says) already over. And how he has to sort of clean up the loose ends which is not a fast process. Thats the best case scenario but I'm always the last to see the truth in a situation so I'd really lke to know now if I'm being...well you know...

I looked at his solar returns for the next 3 years. He has Saturn in the 4th indicating the house move for next year. And he has Pluto cusp 4th which bodes well for conception altho I thought that was only in female charts. I would like to know where to look for clues of marriage and longevity between us. (Solar "arc"? Progressed something?) I love him but these doubts and worries are starting to kill me and I dont know what's going on because I didnt have any of them until about 4 days back when I asked this first horary. I asked about marriage because if he REALLY loves me and really wants to be with me for me and not because he is afraid of being alone after divorce, and not because he wants an easier ticket to move to the USA (my native country) and not because of some other reason -- then i could relax knowing that my love is 100% returned. But I dont know the reasons he's with me and having been burned badly in the past I guess I am wanting to protect myself from another fall. I also do not have time to waste if he is in this for some other reason (??)

Anyway if you have suggestions other than Solar Return charts of what to look at then please advise...

12
Polina, we so often see in relationship questions, "I love him, but....."

Then follows a list of issues, large and small, that get in the way of romantic happiness.

I have no counseling credentials, though in my former employment, I had to dispense all kinds of advice to people, so I don't mind doing it, whether qualified or not, up to a point. But I think your concerns and issues are coming out piecemeal, bit by bit, and I'm sorry not to have gotten the complete outline initially, as I can respond only to the information at hand. The chart is highly suggestive of some initially unspoken issues, like your BF's current commitments to his wife, but "reverse engineering" of the chart to infer information beyond your initial statements is starting to get above my level of astrological expertise.

So, in my opinion, for what it's worth.

(1) You moved a long way to live with this man, without a clear prior discussion of who does what or who pays for what-- presumably in love, and in the belief that everything would work out as you hoped.

(2) He lied to you about the status of his divorce. Are you absolutely certain now that the divorce is in-progress? I ask only because so many times the "other woman" is promised that the man will divorce his wife and marry her, but this never quite happens. I note that your signifier, Mercury, is in your BF's turned 12th house, which can indicate deception. You've indicated your issues with your BF. It's possible he also feels you entered the relationship under one set of conditions, and then changed without notifying him up front about what you actually wanted.

(3) You deeply, profoundly want a conventional marriage and child. Yet based on your experience with your BF to date, how likely is this to happen? Realistically? On a scale of one to ten?

(4) I am unclear about something you mentioned in your previous posts about children "in heaven" but, yes, you can choose artificial insemination as a single woman if having a child is your #1 priority.

(5) Sometimes people change their problematic modes of behaviour. But you cannot count on them changing. If you BF does not suddenly divorce his wife, start a baby with you, and pay for you to be a stay-at-home mom, realistically what are your options and priorities?

(6) As-is, the relationship may have a lot of stars-in-your-eyes romance, but it also seems to be very hard on your self-esteem.

I don't find solar return charts to be particularly revealing, but maybe I don't read them as expertly as some astrologers do. I would suggest, first off, to look at your two natal charts to see what type of relationship material both of you really are as individuals; and then compare them side-by-side (synastry) to look for points of good contact for a long-term relationship and points of potential conflict. If the charts indicate serious conflict (which you've already alluded to) would you really want to stay with your BF, given the above?

If the answer is that, yes, you would like to stay with him, then it may be time to consider some compromises in your ideal life-plan.

Looking at a solar return chart can suggest the year ahead, but primarily in relation to your natal chart. I don't practice a deterministic, fatalistic type of predictive astrology: I would suggest only likely or unlikely and good or bad times for something to happen. Transit and progression charts may be helpful, as well.

Best wishes, W.