Wow!!!

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WOW!!! :D how interesting to see that many opinions about one very chart.

It makes a lot of sense to think that Venus (Love Goddess) should be the previous wife, but even assuming that, I could still be thinking that the guy really had sex with her and so cheated on his current wife.

Waybread does really have a point when he says there's no direct major aspects between the Sun and Venus, true. But isn't a reception enough? I don't really know. Answering that question for me will be key to clarify what makes "things to pass or not". That would make a big difference for me when judging a chart.

It is true that the Sun is in its detriment, and so would Mars in Libra. But I don't think the guy feels so happy about having that kid outside his current marriage and very likely the kid isn't either about having a far away father (asumming the kid is Mars) so that could explain the uncomfortable situation they feel out of that sex experience with venus in Scorpio (which I would see as hidden things related to sex)

We also have Venus the Sun and Mars, the three of them are in Venus term, and the Sun is also in Jupiter's face (ruler's of the guy's 5th)

The key question would be if only by terms and sign reception would be enough to consider a question a Yes, when there are no direct aspects.

Breeze recommended me to make it as simple as possible, and not to venture too much into the other houses, but :D hahaha..... what about the guy's 12th turned house?? It's cancer and its ruler is the Moon, related to children and procreation, which not only is exalted in Taurus, but also, in its own face and in Jupiter's term (once again ruler of the guy's 5th)

The Moon is also aspecting Mars by trine, Breeze said it was related to hurt, so, is that Mars unveiling the guy's secret by that trine?

The Moon is also trining the Wheel of Fortune which is in the very 1st house of the man, and WOF is also in Venus term and face. So we have too many terms coincidences, but I'm not sure if that's relevant enough to make it a Yes.

The 12 house is said to represent worries, secrets and skeletons in the closet... wouldn't that make sense that the Moon points out what is his secret by that double trine to the WOF and Mars in his 5th. That's also a doubt I have because I've seen the use of that arabic part to point out important things, but don't know about this case. Excuse me if by this I'm digging too deep for far-fetched things....it's just a question :D

Somebody who knows about the children arabic part or something like that I think could be very interesting.

I'll try to gather more information from the querent so we may have closer details about what could be going on in this chart.

Let's see what the wise men of this forum have to say about this :D Thanks to everyone in advance!
"There is no knowledge that is not power"

32
Meanwhile, suggest to the ex wife a simple DNA test for both the child and the querent's husband (or her own husband) to determine paternity. If she won't cooperate, then chances are she actually believes her current husband is the child's father.

Basically, I think the husband is the 7th house, and his child would be the 5th from the 7th or 11th. If this doesn't look affirmative for an applying aspect or some kind of essential dignity reciprocity then astrologically you should be able to rule out that possibility.

I believe that the querent's husband's ex wife would be represented by the first house, as well: the 7th house from the 7th house, ruled by Saturn.

No doubt there's more to get to in looking at planets as rulers of various phenomena, regardless of how they show up in the chart.

I don't think it's unusual to get a conflicting testimony. J. Lee Lehman, in The Martial Art of Horary Astrology, quotes John Gadbury, on this problem. He says that if [conflicting] testimonies are about equal, it's best just to defer judgement, because you cannot say with certainty which way the matter will work out.

Meanwhile, let's hope one of the experts sets us straight.

33
Lilly deals with the rumor question quite effectively in CA-II.

The MC/IC angles are not fixed,SN is in ascendant, Moon is fixed , 3rd lord is in detriment (corrected..3rd lord is fixed). Moon applies to opposition of Venus in detriment.

The rumor is not true and mischievous.

PD

34
additionally,
....The Retrogradation of Mercury, or he any other way afflicted, or of that Planet to whom the Moon applies, or to whom Mercury applies, and above all, if either of those two be Lords of the Ascendant, doe signifie the ill Rumours shall vanish to nothing, and shall be converted to good;...
Mercury is combust and applying to Sun in its fall in Libra.Moon applies to Venus in detriment in scorpio.

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Hi HannibalAlchemist:

I?m fairly new to horary so please take that into consideration when reading this.

I have only read the background story and PankajDubey?s last posts before writing out this delineation as I wanted to ?test? myself against the chart.


The question was: is her husband the father of that kid?

The chart is not radical: a consideration before judgement.

The ASC degree is OK.


The wife (querent) is L1, Saturn, peregrine, angular in the 10th house, disposed by Jupiter (peregrine).

The wife?s co-significator, the Moon, is exalted in the 3rd house and disposed by Venus (in detriment).

The husband (quesited) is the Sun, L7, in fall and in the 8th house (hidden things/anguish), in the Via Combusta (fear and hidden things), protected by Spica and disposed by Venus.

The ex-wife, now mistress, is Venus, whose signs are both intercepted in 3 and 8, in detriment and on the cusp of 10. Venus (dispositor Mars) is about to move bodily into the 10th house and change signs from Scorpio to Sagittarius.

The affair itself is Mars, exalted and with dignity by face in 11, disposed by Saturn. According to Deborah Houlding: the condition of the 11th house indicates the fidelity or falseness of friends and is the house of step-children (5th from the 7th). The 11th house is ruled by Jupiter, peregrine.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h11.html

Wade Caves has mentioned that Venus can sometimes be seen simply as ?desire? and that?s how I view Mars in this chart (which is a modern astrology perspective).

The children of the wife and husband (querent and quesited) are L5, Mercury, peregrine and combust in the 8th house and in the Via Combusta.

The child of the affair is Jupiter, L11 (turned L5 or 5th from the 7th, step-children), peregrine and under the beams in the 8th house as well.



The first house contains the South Node, indicating what appears to be a less than ideal situation for the wife; Neptune is conjunct the South Node, however, and perhaps it?s not as bad as she thinks. The third house contains the Moon, her emotional state, which is exalted and she is about to ?lose her head? (Algol) as she applies to an opposition to the mistress, Venus.

The seventh house contains the North Node and the Part of Fortune: I think this might mean that they will be lucky if financial consequences are the only consequences they will have to face. As well, this is the husband?s (turned) first house and he will be lucky to retain the loyalty of his children (Mercury disposes).

The eighth house contains the husband and the kids. The children, for the most part are ?unseen?, have no dignity, are peregrine and suffering by being in the eighth, feeling the heat of the sun (the effects of their father?s behaviour), and in the case of Mercury, the heat of the Via Combusta (perhaps the effects of others in his world re: the affair); in other words the children know about the affair and the rumours and it?s having a bad effect on them. The adults are all lacking dignity and I think the peregrine status of the children indicates that the adults are mostly concerned with themselves at this point.

The tenth contains the two women: the wife, concerned with possibility of another child (disposed by Jupiter) and the mistress, concerned now with the affair (disposed by Mars) but as she changes signs she will take a greater concern with her child (disposed by Jupiter).



Turning the chart, I think, gives the same results. It might seem strange that the husband and the children show up in the second house, but there is an article online by Olivia Barclay (I can longer find the site) that says the second house rules ??all things that are yours?, which is another reason I think the child in question is the child of the quested along with the fact that Jupiter is within orb of a conjunction with the Sun.



The Moon?s last aspect is a separation from a trine with Mars; next aspect is an opposition to Venus: the wife heard about the affair and is in conflict, at least on an emotional level, with the mistress.

Mercury?s last aspect is a separation from a square with Mars perhaps indicating when the children learned of the affair. Mercury?s next aspect is a conjunct with the Sun, where they may gain some protection from the Via Combusta and some strength from cazimi.

Venus? last aspect is a separation from a sextile with Mars perhaps indicating the ending of the affair; her next aspect is sextile with Jupiter, her son, where she will be able to lend him some dignity (term) as his dispositor.

Mars? last aspect is a separation from a square with Jupiter, again, the revelation of the affair to the child.

I don?t think the paternity of the child will be revealed, to the world anyway, and the rumour will die down, as the Sun and Mercury will move out of the eighth house more quickly than Jupiter will.



If were a professional astrologer, I don?t think I would consider answering this question for the querent as the potential for harm is too great. Stigma can have a very profound, lasting effect and no kid needs that. I think it would be better to take a chance to let the rumour die and the children have a reasonably normal life and I would counsel the querent to think about the long-term effects of proceeding on the course that she?s on. Not easy, of course, especially if you?re about to ?lose your head?.

As well, there may be cultural differences that need to be considered and nothing that has been discussed in this delineation takes into account the mistress? husband. It may be worthwhile to ask a question regarding him, or perhaps he does exist in this chart but I?ve warped the delineation towards my own preference for ?neat and tidy? and an emphasis on the children.


Any feedback or questions greatly appreciated.

I hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday season.

Merry Christmas. :lala

Information from the Querent

40
Good afternoon friends! I've gathered some more information from the Querent and everything points out that the kid is the husband's though we will never know for sure.

She tells me that all this happened long ago, actually the kid is 13 years now, and everything seems to have occured in a time when they were split. In that time the husband very likely visted his ex-wife and everything started out there. After that period of separation the querent got called up by the 1st wife several times bragging about that she had an affaire with her husband and that she was pregnant of a kid of his. In fact, back then, both women were pregnant at the same time. She kept on harassing her on the phone for some time, till she finally confronted her husband but he denied everything and called the ex-wife back and told her off, and phone harassment stopped there.

The husband also has an older kid from that very same wife, but he never took care of that kid. This is something the husband himself acknowledges, but the 2nd kid is not recognized by him.

Though we will never be able to know for sure, I think everything makes a lot of sense, even more when I have seen many comments from you friends about this chart.

I'm really impressed at Moonbright's interpretation because she really nailed it at making a difference between the current marriage children, and step-children by the turned 5th house of the husband. That's crucial. For me that really establishes a difference between the kids he does recognize as his and the ones he doesn't.

Pankajdubey's comment on the rumour is also very pertinent, because though he doesn't think the kid is his, it is true that everything starts out with an evil-intentioned rumour that will affect the moon deeply by oposition with Venus from Scorpio. We should understand that venus (the mistress) is acting out of pain, vengeance, jealosuy, etc, that's why it's in its fall.

The Sun in 8th, and in fall, shows the very uncomfortable situation for the husband being accused, and disposed by Venus (the cause of his anguish).

By the way, the ex wife is an Aries woman, and Mars in the turned 5th represents the conflict, squaring both Mercury and Jupiter. Jupiter ruler of his 5th, underlines again the children issue. Venus is also disposed by Mars. Moonbright mentioned Spica protection. South Node in the 1st house of the querent and Algol as driving her crazy. All makes sense.

The querent know has started to show her deep resentment and pain because of this situation. Something she hadn't done before, so everything is related to her pain, Breeze explanation was Mars trining the Moon, or the oposition with Venus gives the same outcome.

Moonbright also mentioned the Wheel of Fortune in the 1st house of the husband. She understood that as the guy being lucky by only taking care of the kid economically, but I think that won't happen. It's just what Moobright and Pankajiji said about the nasty rumour, though very likely true, it will die out and nothing will happen.

My interpretation was that the secret sought for (in this case the denied kid), represented by the Wheel of Fortune was trined by the Moon, just as Mars is. The Moon, Lord of husband's 12 house (secrets, worries etc) and also related to procreation, was pointing out that Mars accusation was true. If the Wheel of Fortune were a lost object that we are looking for we could say it was in the Quesited's hands (his 1st house). That's how I would see it but Im not an expert in Arabic Parts.

I don't mean the case is absolutely closed, but I think we have learnt a couple of things about this intrigue, concerning rumours and alleged fatherhood in horary, just as well as 7th and 5th house stuff.

Please keep on commenting if you think there are still many things missing.

I really thank all of you for your kind contribution and wish you Merry Christmas!!!
Last edited by Alchemist_Hannibal on Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
"There is no knowledge that is not power"

42
waybread wrote:Thanks for the update.

But honestly, if this is such a big issue, why don't the husband and the boy get a simple paternity DNA test? Problem solved.

Happy holidays.
The boy is a minor who lives the person who wants to emotionally torture the querent that- so why would she agree.Why break a stick with which you can beat the querent for a lifetime- it is most useful unsolved.