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Skyscript Astrology Forum

The US Presidential election of 2016
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so accordingly then, it is the ''right'' astrology, or the ''right'' house system.. got it! mark - look what you've invited with that article!!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Republican convention which chooses the presidential candidate to run against Hillary Clinton began yesterday, July 18 in Cleveland, Ohio. A concerted effort to stop Donald Trump failed, so as the people's choice, he will have the nomination before the convention is over. As a renegade, Trump has little favor from Republican party leaders. They are being forced to support a candidate they would like to see disappear.

EDIT: 20 July 2016
Those who are staying away from the convention:

3. Who isn't going? Some senior figures who don't like Donald Trump have stayed away, including two ex-presidents named Bush, former nominee Mitt Romney and Ohio Governor John Kasich.

4. What's the schedule?

Wednesday - VP nominee Mike Pence
Thursday - Donald Trump, introduced by daughter Ivanka

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-36841851
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I hold that with the proper predictive techniques based on accurate natal charts, we can quite possibly predict winners.


I'm afraid I've come to the opposite conclusion when it comes to democratic elections. How in the world can we tell how tens of millions of people will vote based on someone else's natal chart? In the US Presidential election even that isn't enough as the electoral college has to be taken into consideration - just ask Al Gore. Somehow all of this can be determined with Donald Trump's and/or Hillary Clinton's accurate birth data? I doubt it.

We can see a rise in eminence perhaps, but winning the election? If I were nominated to run for President that would signify a rise in eminence for me. To the everlasting regret of the republic, I would most likely be defeated, but it is still an honor to be nominated.

If eminence in the birth chart is all we need, well then prepare for a Trump Presidency because his ASC is conjunct Regulus, a martial kingly star. That is not a prediction because if he wins, I doubt having Regululs on the ASC is enough, and if he loses, he has still risen to prominence.

I recall the 2004 election and the group I belonged to was looking at John Kerry's chart and swooning because he had a happy Venus transit over his MC on election day, and nothing was going on in the GW Bush chart. None of us recall the John Kerry Administration for a good reason. Oh he had a wonderful day as the transit predicted. He was almost elected President of the United States. Not many of us can say that, but he lost.

So what's the trick for predicting the president? I don't know, and I doubt there is a way to do it. Astrology was devised long before the idea of popular elections of leaders was a viable concept. Trying to adapt such a complex process to a natal chart alone is, in my view, a serious stretch, and doesn't even address the nagging issue of personal bias. Show me an astrologer's prediction and I'll tell you how he votes. I like to tell people that if the only time you're right is when your guy wins, you're not doing anything of value.

I still play the game, though, in private and my predictions are about as accurate as my Super Bowl predictions, which is to say - not very.

FOOTNOTE: I can relate one scarily accurate prediction from 1988. The Astrological Society of Princeton (NJ) was discussing the charts of G.H.W Bush and Michael Dukakis. There was no clear indication of consensus among the group. But Ken Negus, the group's (still surviving and serving) President looked at the chart and said; "We can't really tell from this, but one thing is certain, whoever it is will only serve one term."

That's good because that is exactly what happened. Years later I reminded him of that prediction and asked him how he did it. He replied, "I don't remember." Arghhhhhhhhhh
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an interesting article by Patrick Watson here:

http://www.patrickwatsonastrologer.com/2016/06/21/overcombing-and-hilling-rays-2016-us-election-prediction/

I'm coming around to the idea that Hillary was probably born a few minutes after 8 AM. While I agree with most of Watson's analysis, there's still a problem about eminence that bugs me. The idea is that if the timelordship is angular for one chart and succedent or cadent for another, then the former is supposed to prevail. The problem I see is the assumption that the eminence is the same. In other words, how do I know that Hillary's angularity is necessarily better than Trump's succedent periods? Given roughly equal polls, one might make the assumption that they are roughly at the same level of eminence.

But what if the determining factor is some chart that no one knows (such as the Thema Mundi)? Valens said that one was supposed to compare the lords of the year, month, day and hour from the arising of Sirius with the chart of the ruler.

Romney is right now in a highly active period, that pardon me, Trumps Hillary's time lord sequence right now. He is however suffering from a south node transit the 10th house (whole sign place). Hillary is going to have this going over the north node. So reluctantly, I'd have to say given all things being equal, I think Hillary will win.

Sorry Tom, it's not how I'll vote. I supported Nader for years but was never foolish enough to predict that he would win. I won't vote the lesser of two evils argument either. To me that's the same thing as throwing away your vote.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
I'm afraid I've come to the opposite conclusion when it comes to democratic elections. How in the world can we tell how tens of millions of people will vote based on someone else's natal chart?

One of the main characteristics of the Skyscript forum is that there is a great deal of theoretical talk and comparatively little actual research with charts. The philosophy of western siderealism and India's astrology is that predication is possible. In particular the modern western sidereal school uses solar returns and other cyclic charts for prediction.

Below are the Washington DC Enneads (40 day charts within the solar return year) for the 2016 U.S. presidential election date for both candidates. Either these charts have no validity or it's not even a contest based on planets on angles or aspecting angles (asc/desc/MC/IC).

Simply consider the innate nature of the planets and ignore signs of the zodiac since these charts have to be calculated without precession (sidereal). Hillary Clinton's presumed natal ascendant is Gemini, ruled by Mercury. Donald Trump's ascendant is Leo, house of the Sun. (House cusp lines are considered the center points of equal houses.)



Hillary Clinton:
Sun and Mercury at the NG (zenith point) (Mercury cazimi)
Ennead MC conjunct natal Jupiter
Ennead Jupiter partile trine the Ascendant
Natal Lot of Fortune conjunct Ennead ascendant



Donald Trump:
Saturn at the NG (zenith point)
Ennead MC conjunct natal Ketu (south node--loss)
Ennead Ketu (south node) on the Ascendant
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Data update: Donald Trump was officially proposed as the Republican party candidate for the 2016 Presidential Election by the Republican National convention, in Cleveland, Ohio, at 19.14 local time on 19th of July 2016.



Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:56 am; edited 3 times in total
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
One of the main characteristics of the Skyscript forum is that there is a great deal of theoretical talk and comparatively little actual research with charts.


A forum is by definition just that. A place where people with all kinds of astrological ideas, knowledge, and skills gather and can choose to post as much or as little as they like. There is often a lack of cohesion in threads with people using different techniques and possessing contrasting astrological outlooks. These are the characteristics of all astrology forums not just Skyscript.

In that respect any forum can be compared unfavourably with a blog or website of one astrologer where a coherent, and consistent approach using one set of astro tools can be presented.

Having said that if you checked out the recent forum thread on whether the UK would leave the European Union there was a plethora of charts examined and no shortage of prediction.

I also put together research on astrologers making detailed predictions on the UK Brexit. The prediction success rate was quite impressive. Especially, for western traditional astrology:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9161

From what I can gather most Indian astrologers predicted Brexit wouldn't happen:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/markets/stocks/news/believe-in-astrology-heres-what-they-predict-about-brexit-market-reaction/articleshow/52863770.cms

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
The philosophy of western siderealism and India's astrology is that predication is possible.


That is the position of traditional western tropical astrology too. And many if not all western tropicalists also adhere to this outlook. The real question though is whether nativities in themselves are sufficient to do this.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
In particular the modern western sidereal school uses solar returns and other cyclic charts for prediction.


Again something a western traditional astrologer using the tropical zodiac would recognise. I rely very heavily on solar returns and profections.

But I think Tom has a point. Firstly, the tradition passed down to us in the west is that there are various branches in astrology. Mundane astrology may incorporate the nativities of key figures but these charts are often seen as subordinate to other charts such as ingress, eclipses, or foundational charts for the kingdom/nation.

And our tradition was born in a time of Kings who usually obtained power by the sword or by simple succession. Very different from the political nuances of modern democratic politics. And in countries with multi-party systems the trends are less simplistic than party A or B that applies in the USA.

I think it is much easier to tell if an incumbent will win or lose through the nativity alone. For example, David Cameron's solar return and profections this year indicated a likely career ending year to me.

But if you have two nativities (one relying on rectification) both competing equally for high office for the first time its more tricky. A person may come closer to political success than at any time in their life so enjoy great transits/solar return/profections but still fail to win. I think we can detect who has a fair wind behind them and who doesn't but I dont think we should be relying exclusively on nativities for such questions.

To pick up the public geist I would look at the Jupiter-Saturn cycle, then the ingress, pre-lunation, and relevant eclipses. I would also look at foundational charts such as the POTUS and Federal Constitution chart. I am not entirely, convinced that an opening of poll chart works for US elections due to the prior voting in person allowed in many states, variable polling hours and the electoral college system.

As I see it anyway, the individual nativities of the Presidential candidates should fit into a subordinate place within such an approach.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:38 pm; edited 3 times in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

One of the main characteristics of the Skyscript forum is that there is a great deal of theoretical talk and comparatively little actual research with charts. The philosophy of western siderealism and India's astrology is that predication is possible. In particular the modern western sidereal school uses solar returns and other cyclic charts for prediction.


Therese,

( trying to stay positive here).. there is nothing to prevent anyone from offering any number of astrological insights which typically come out of independent research and exploration via their love of interest in astrology.. one can go on about whatever astrological viewpoint they want to further, but regardless of the view, people need to be convinced with substance and astrology..


it would appear your charts here rely on a specific birth time for hillary, when their is no guarantee on the validity of the chart, there is no guarantee the 'research' is in any way relevant .. until something changes, it's one persons view in contrast to others here at skyscript forum or elsewhere.. their may be some ''astrological guru'' claiming to have all the answers based on research who some wish to put their faith in, but again - it is an equal playing field where an exchange of ideas, research and etc of astrology defines skyscript and all other places that i have seen.. i am grateful to have an outlet to discuss, or share ideas, so kudos to deb houlding for allowing skyscript and by extension - all other forums where astrology is allowed to be discussed with other interested people.. and for the record, i am especially impressed with deb houldings hands off approach.. the lady has a lot of class as i see it for allowing skyscript to continue..

mark

thanks for sharing the time for trumps acceptance as rep leader..
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James:

Quote:
thanks for sharing the time for trumps acceptance as rep leader..


He didn't. That's tonight (Thursday 7/21). Mark gave the time Trump was officially nominated, i.e. the time the New York delegation gave him the number of votes he needed to become the nominee. At some point in the beginning of his speech tonight, he will utter the words: "I accept your nomination for President of the United States." I have no opinion on which chart is more relevant.
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amymaddalozzo



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several things that jump out about Trump's chart: Solar Arc Uranus is squaring natal MC--at the same time, transiting Uranus is starting to aspect his natal venus, the ruler of his 10th house. That tells me some big surprise. Also, solar arc pluto is starting to conjunct natal pluto while transiting Jupiter will enter libra soon. maybe Trump will be surprised and VERY GLAD that he did not win-we will find out AMY
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
It would appear your charts here rely on a specific birth time for hillary, when their is no guarantee on the validity of the chart...

This can be true from from the point of view of others. As I wrote on the Sidereal section of Skyscript, I prefer the time used by K.N. Rao, currently India's foremost research astrologer. Rao uses only concrete facts in his astrological work, and of course, we can take his work or leave it as we choose.

But leaving Hillary out of the picture, the Ennead chart I posted for Donald Trump isn't a winning chart. I looked at the birth certificate posted on-line for Trump, and it certainly appears to be valid. I was born in the same time frame as Trump, and birth certificates in the U.S. had a black background (due to the copying method used) like Trump's in that time period.
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amymaddalozzo



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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the astrology could indicate that he might he surprised that he did not win but actually glad. Trump I think went into this election with an ego thing to prove he could do it. In the US, once you get the nomination, you have access to classified intelligence briefs which
Members of congress and the president get. He will realize how damn bad and complex things are and he really will not want the job. I think it is down hill from here for trump. Amy
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amy wrote:
Quote:
I think the astrology could indicate that he might he surprised that he did not win but actually glad. Trump I think went into this election with an ego thing to prove he could do it.

This has been said in different ways by various sources in recent months: that Donald Trump enjoys the challenge of running for president, but in no way would he want the restricted life of being president. Then we have to ask if predictive techniques show the actual fact of losing (Saturn) or his relief at not being president (Jupiter). In modern times this is a question for western astrology as India's astrology deals with facts rather than psychology.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the helpful aspects of Donald Trump's birth time as given is that the tropical and sidereal ascendants are the same sign, Leo. So with equal house cusps (and maybe with other house system cusps as well) the same planets rule the same houses of the birth chart.

The time given for Trump's official selection as the Republican party candidate for the 2016 presidential election is 7:14 (19:14) EDT on July 19 in Cleveland, Ohio. Whether or not this time says anything about election results, this momentous moment in time has to be extremely significant for Donald Trump. It is the pinnacle of his campaign battle with the Republican party, and he has emerged the victor amidst continuing dissent. As such, it's interesting to look at the transits to his natal chart at that precise moment. As Trump is now 70 years old, it's possible to compare transits in light of precession and non-precession.

This moment came at the full Moon in Capricorn, which means this configuration falls on Trump's Saturn-Venus in the 12th house area in Cancer. There are two close aspects in effect at this time:
Sun semi-sextile natal Mars on the ascendant and transiting Mercury conjunct natal Pluto (tropical and Krishnamurti):

Tropical
26Leo47 Mars natal
27Cnc41 Sun transit (orb 54')

Sidereal
3Leo46 Mars natal
3Cnc42 Sun transit (orb 4')

Tropical
10Leo03 Pluto natal
11Leo35 Mercury transit (orb 1° 32')

Sidereal

17Cnc02 Pluto natal
17Cnc36 Mercury transit (orb 34')

We can also look at the position of the Moon making its closest aspect to Venus, natal 10th house lord (aside from the quincunx to natal Mars):

Tropical
25Cnc44 Venus natal
27Cap50 Moon transit (orb 2° 6')

Sidereal
2Cnc44 Venus natal
3Cap50 Moon transit (orb 1° 6)

The transit of Mercury to natal Pluto also falls in Trump's 12th house. It may be comparisons like this that convinced Robert Hand, Marc Penfield and others to remove precession when calculating solar returns. Others may view these small differences as insignificant, but the difference is large in solar return charts.

Oh, I also just noticed this MC connection:

Tropical
26Lib55 Event MC
25Cnc44 Venus natal (10th lord) natal (orb 1° 11')

Sidereal
2Lib56 Event MC
2Cnc44 Venus natal (10th lord) natal (orb 12')

EDIT: Thursday evening
I should have set up an aspects graph. This evening I noted another hit that I missed:

Tropical
24Sco22 IC natal
25Sco39 Mars transit (orb 1° 17')

Sidereal
1Sco21 IC natal
1Sco40 Mars transit (orb 19')




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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:37 am; edited 3 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Rao uses only concrete facts in his astrological work, and of course, we can take his work or leave it as we choose.


does he have a birth certificate for hillary? if not - he or anyone else can say whatever they want to say and that is a fact too.. doesn't mean it is factually true, just a fact..
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