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Will the UK leave the EU?
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote
Quote:
thanks for the last modern astro article on brexit.. it was entertaining to read! i thought the mid life crisis idea off the 1973 uk joins euro chart was fun... uranus opp uranus and saturn opp saturn...


Yes I guess because it is anonymous it can be quite relaxed and I like the humour. Some interesting research on UK General elections I have been enjoying based on opening of poll charts.

James_M wrote
Quote:
she didn't talk about the venus/saturn opposition in the 1973 chart - no fun!! i notice a solar return for the 1973 has venus/saturn in a conjunction up in the 10th sign area of the chart too.. is that more of the same glum - must fall in line thinking that seems to rule so much of these actions?


Yes the EU has never been very popular here. Really ever since the European Union was created in the early 1990s.

James_M wrote
Quote:
i can't figure out what is with these astrologers giving the pluto square sun as some sort of green light for camerons win... that blows my mind.. i certainly don't see it that way... her charts leave out the nodal axis... for me, camerons win had a lot to do with north node transiting his venus/ascendant in spite of the pluto!!! funny how we arrive at conclusions so very differently..


Rather than see Pluto as just toxic some mods emphasize its connection to power. I dont get it either to be honest. If it was a first hit I would understand it but as the final hit of a Pluto square?

Anyway, i plan to look at Cameron in more detail.

James_M wrote
Quote:
and, for all we know the transit of jupiter to camerons chart in november has more to do with him doing something that brings happiness in the fall then it does here.. i just don't agree with her analysis, but it was fun to read!


Yeah I totally agree. Although Jupiter first moves into Libra on September 9th. Cameron's next solar return looks a lot easier too.

Liz Hathway was saying in her piece Cameron had timed this badly with Jupiter transiting his 12th house/Virgo at the time of the referendum. I agree on that. Quite unlike the Scottish election when it was in protective Leo -Cameron's 11th. I must put up his solar return against his natal. Its dire with a stellium of four planets in Virgo!


Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

thanks for sharing your view on that article.. sounds like we had a similar view on it!

here is a biwheel with cameron natal chart on the inside and 2015 solar return on the outside.. it is the way i first look at these charts, after looking at them as stand alone charts..


photo hosting sites

i believe i commented on this chart before on some other thread, as i remember going over it before... sr 2015 ascendant on his natal mars, sr midheaven on his north node and the cluster of virgo planets squared onto saturn in sag.. sorry, overall but i don't see this as favourable.. maybe his 2016 sr looks better!

his 2015 profection chart highlights mars again, as the ascendant lands in scorpio - 2nd house matters.. this lines the profected midheaven up with jupiter which seems favourable, but i think as i understand it - much of 2015-16 for his solar return and profection chart hinges on how one wants to interpret his natal mars... 11th or 12th? maybe he would get along with trump? lol... each one would be vying for top dog with regulus rising!!! well - that is for his 2015 sr chart, but not a permanent characteristic... i don't know the man, but find him irritating regardless..

solar arc angles emphasize his 2nd house neptune in scorpio on south node - financial matters being raised in the past year as i recall too..

here is the reverse of the above bi wheel chart with solar return 2015 inside and camerons chart on the outside..


image hosting no register

and for simplicity sake, if the above charts are hard to see - the actual 2015 solar return only chart below..


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additional comment - on balance, i don't think this is a favourable solar return... maybe the following year is a better one for him..
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I would add a couple of other articles predicting the outcome of the UK European Union referendum.

Firstly, a couple of pieces by the Australian astrologer Jessica Adams predicting a Brexit. So far Jessica Adams is the only astrologer using modern techniques who have put together a substantive argument why the UK will vote to leave the EU.

http://www.jessicaadams.com/2016/02/22/how-astrology-predicts-a-brexit/

http://www.jessicaadams.com/2016/06/06/boris-cameron-and-the-brexit-horoscopes/

Secondly, two articles by the Netherlands based British astrologer Elizabeth Hathway. Elizabeth ultimately plumps for a remain vote being more likely from her study of various national charts.

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://astrologieblog.nl/&prev=search

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://astrologieblog.nl/&prev=search
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Last edited by Mark on Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

thanks for providing these links with more astro comments on the brexit vote...

both of them put a good amount of work into it.. i found myself identifying with the process expressed by elizabeth hathaway more though...

this is a quote from hathaways 1st link - "The UK is approaching the transit of Pluto opposite the Moon. Given the UK Moon is in the 10th house - this suggests a change in the public persona of the country, a change in status of the country, and quite possibly a break of trust between the people and its government. However, it must be Said Whether we vote to go - or stay, this energy will surface. Broken promises by the government, will not be taken lightly. This feels like very grass roots opposition (Pluto in the 4th). David Cameron is in the Midst of the transit Pluto square the Sun and we Whether stay or go, he will struggle to keep his party together methinks. Imagine if the vote is very finely balanced - and it could very well be!" i agree with her interpretation of the t pluto square sun happening in camerons chart here..

this 1801 uk chart gets used a lot, perhaps to the exclusion of some of the other possible charts for use with the uk..

both links for hathaway are part 2 of the article... not sure where part 1 is..
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

While I may have plumped for a different outcome to Elizabeth Hathway (heavily against Bookmakers advice!) I agree her articles are well written and insightful.

And yes she makes some excellent points. Of course no astrologer is going to miss the Pluto square to Cameron's Sun. But I guess its how we interpret it. Some like Barry Goddard seem to think this last square helps Cameron hold on although I remain unclear why. Another one we have all spotted is the pending Pluto opposition to the UK Moon in Cancer (1801).(10th house). That clearly represents something fairly traumatic and painful at a very public level. It certainly might be related to the EU issue but I do wonder if it might not also reflect a death in the British Royal family. However, I would need to examine other charts to be more certain on that.

I dont understand what went wrong with the link to her first article on my last post. It still seems to direct you back to the second article. Maybe its because its originally in Dutch and needs translation. I dont know. Anyway, the first article has the same title. Just scroll down a couple of articles to find. Clue: it does not say Part II!

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://astrologieblog.nl/&prev=search

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

thanks! i see the first article now and enjoy reading it! i like how she articulates the timing in june, as opposed to when jupiter changes signs into libra and how it impacts camerons chart more favourably then.. i agree with all that! that is part of the reason why i think some of us believe the uk will leave the eu...

you know saying that, i realize the odds both from the bookies pov and my own do favour no change verses change... it seems human nature gravitate automatically to a no change position.. it is my observation on people!

i can't remember if i articulated it, but hathaway does in her article and i liked that too - focus on the neptune square saturn and how that has shown up historically in the charts.. these are good astrological observations! just how one interprets them is more subjective, but it can't help but cast a challenging cloud around the election process on june 23rd..

i go back to a default position i set for myself some time ago in finding solar arc directions a better prognostic tool then secondary progressions.. i have my settings for sec prog naibod in r.a. it gives me a sec prog ascendant for the 1801 uk chart of 15 gemini with sp moon right there as well.. that is very close to the transiting mutable t square involving many planets, but doing this work one is told to only use an orb or 1 degree or less, so it connects mostly with the transit jupiter/north node at 16 virgo... how one wants to interpret that is open to astrological conjecture! however, if one uses solar arc directions the focus is clearly on the 8th house mars in taurus via the sa sun at 11 leo, sa midheaven 10 aq 40 squaring onto it!

as i said in a flippant comment that got removed much earlier in the thread - i think it is all about money... unless big money is prepared to see this change, it ain't going to happen.. i really believe finances are so very central to everything in the world today and this topic of whether uk will stay or go will have a big impact on finances.. on the basis of this and the fact that the 1801 chart has a nice sun-mars trine in a couple of conservative signs!, i would be thinking this lends more strength to the 'remain in the uk' vote as well... so, obviously i can see it both ways too!!!

and regarding the pluto square camerons sun, i happened to note that when pluto finally does go direct - 14 something cap - mercury is just coming out of a retro period and moves direct at 14 virgo or thereabouts.. cameron has a mercury/pluto 45.. i don't trust those kinds of folks myself!!! and he has mercury in scorpio to boot! i imagine cameron is sitting on info and not revealing it all - a common position of politicians! i wonder if when pluto goes direct in late september - if there will be some information that comes out related to all this? pure speculation on my part and it won't matter after the fact... i agree with those who say camerons chart looks much more favourable into the fall...

going back to how finances are central to so much..how is the view on brexit from canary wharf?
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

You can hedge your bets if you like. Its not like you are a British citizen or even based in Europe. Moreover noone is obligated to make predictions here. Deciding whether to walk that astrological tightrope is a personal decision.

There is no doubt Cameron's chart looks far better from early September with Jupiter entering Libra. His next Solar return in October is also much better. So does this indicate a successful campaign won and a decision to step down on a high point over the next year or an enforced 'retirement' due to losing the referendum and a short Tory party leadership election before his departure to a quieter less stressful life on the back benches in the Autumn? I suppose its even possible Cameron could survive a Brexit on the basis of getting the best deal for Britain in negotiations. As an uber Libra that legacy would surely be preferable to him over resigning in ignominious failure following a Brexit vote. Some of the Brexit leaders like Liam Fox have said they would support Cameron as leader if the UK votes to leave. But the campaign has got so bitter within the Conservative party I wonder if that is realistic.

Anyway, I have put my money where my mouth is and put a substantial bet on Brexit a few weeks ago.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark,

i have no bets to hedge, lol... i just work the astro out as i mouth off here at skyscript, lol... some topics or questions i am a lot more clear on - like cameron getting re-elected last time.. but this brexit i continue to lean uk leaves eu, even if i can see sound astro and non astrological arguments for them not... sometimes it is almost like the non astrological arguments weigh more strongly in my mind.. so much for the astrology!!

it was interesting reading liz hathaways article from an intuitive point of view.. my first impression was that she seemed to unconsciously lean towards or favour the uk staying.. i got that from her first paragraph in i believe it was part 1 of her 2 part articles... not sure why i got that, but i did.. sometimes i wonder if the astrology we provide just sums up a very subjective viewpoint that we already have on certain issues/topics? i don't know, but i bring it up as i can't fool myself into thinking it is all about the astrology.. hopefully other astrologers don't either, but i think it happens.. not saying this applies to anyone in particular and it really is yet another philosophical topic i love pursuing.. thanks for your additional comments.. we'll see the outcome soon enough!
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deborah Houlding said its good to make these kind of predictions really far out so we are not effected by all the noise of a campaign or general election. Plus other analysis pops up.

But the only analysis I saw before writing my opening of poll analysis was the piece by Julian Venables.

Maybe the best prediction is when we go against our personal views. In the Scottish referendum in 2014 I looked at the astrology and wrote an article predicting a close no vote as the likeliest outcome. The astrology was very clear to me there. But I was simultaneously campaigning for a yes vote and hoping my article was wrong!

In contrast while I foresaw a coalition government in 2010 (based on the Aries ingress chart) months out I just couldn't contemplate it involving the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. My political views undoubtably blinded me from seeing that because I didn't want it. Since then I have tried to remain more objective but its always difficult.

This time round I admit I strongly favour Brexit. Has that effected my analysis of the opening of poll chart? I dont feel so but others may see it differently. Certainly when you look at things like national charts we can choose to emphasize certain transits over others.

Chatting to Liz Hathway I know she favours remain. I admit I thought she was a Brexiter from her first piece. But maybe that demonstrates a nuanced, fairly objective coverage by her since she can see arguments from both sides. Hopefully we can all stay astrologically open minded.

Weighting up the testimony in a prediction is often difficult with often contradictory indicators. And sometimes people evaluate the same things quite differently using the same chart.

For example, in a recent article in the Mountain Astrologer Adrian Ross Duncan analyses the opening of poll chart for the referendum as I have. But unlike my take on it as a contest chart he treats it like a national chart and assigns houses accordingly. Hence while I see the 7th house representing the Leave campaign he assigns it to the 7th house of open enemies/friends. Hence while I see the Moon's sextile to Saturn during polling day as voters moving to the Leave campaign Adrian Ross Duncan sees this as a definitive popular swing to the EU! One chart with two diametrically different delineations. Such are the vagaries of predictive astrology. Mind you Adrian Ross Duncan has a strong personal preference for the remain campaign and even invites voters to vote that way in his article! So has that effected his judgement? He is certainly fully aware the betting odds massively favour the remain campaign.

Anyway charts I still intend to look at prior to the referendum:

Natal:

Remain:
David Cameron (Prime Minister)
George Osborne (Chancellor)

Leave
Boris Johnson
Nigel Farage
Michael Gove
Iain Duncan Smith

I willl be giving most analysis on Cameron and Johnson. Although Gove was born in Scotland he was adopted as a baby so no timed data available. Also no time for the UK Chancellor George Osborne. There is a time provided for Nigel Farage but my research indicates the time is much earlier. Iain Duncan Smith was born in Edinburgh so firm birth data. But I dont see IDS as important a figure for the Leave campaign as Boris Johnson , Michael Gove or Farage.

National Charts: EEC chart (1958) EU chart (1993), UK chart (1801), England Chart (1066) UK chart (1927), UK EEC Accession chart (1973)

Eclipse charts: Great Eclipse chart (2015)

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I would share this article by Christina Rodenbeck (The Oxford Astrologer.) that just appeared yesterday:

http://www.oxfordastrologer.com/2016/06/astrologers-saying-brexit.html

Christina does a good survey of what many UK astrologers are predicting on the referendum.

She also includes her analysis on the EU referendum using the close of poll chart and finds a remain outcome more likely. I like her honesty in coming out as a supporter of remain and acknowledges this may be influencing her judgement. She suggests all astrologers making a prediction should be honest and open about their own views.

Christina Rodenbeck also briefly mentions the following pieces which have already been discussed or posted up here:

Marjorie Orr-Remain
Barry Goddard-Remain
Peter Stockinger-Leave
Sharon Knight-Leave
Capricorn Astrology-Remain
Jessica Adams-Leave

She obviously was unaware of the Facebook articles put out by myself and Julian Venables which are on this thread. I guess that is the price you pay for not having a blog/website! However, more surpringly she has missed a few astrologers already discussed here. In particular Elizabeth Hathway and Adrian Ross Duncan

On the other hand she has highlighted the predictions of a few astrologers I had personally missed. These are:

Anton D’Abreu EU (1993 chart) Predicts Leave
Joyce Hopewell (Modern/Huber) 1975 referendum chart-predicts Leave
Chris Kevill (Vedic) Predicts Leave
Paul Sanders/Solaris Astrology-No specific Prediction

The links are below to these articles:

Anton D’Abreu
http://www.oxfordastrologer.com/2016/05/european-union-chart.html


Joyce Hopewell
http://astrologicalpsychology.org/the-eu-referendum-do-we-stay-or-do-we-go/


Chris Kevill
http://www.modernvedicastrology.com/brexit-uk-eu-referendum-market-forecast-2016-february-22


Paul Sanders/Solaris Astrology
http://solarisastrology.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/will-uk-voters-decide-to-leave-european.html

I was especially impressed by Anton D’Abreu's piece myself on the EU chart. He foresees a looming crisis for the EU later this year which he equates with a Brexit. If its not that its certainly looks quite momentous.


Mark

Ps I have decided that just before the referendum I will do a specific locked thread listing all the astrologers who have written substantial pieces on this referendum describing their techniques, astrological outlook and actual prediction.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

i want to thank you for all the work you've done here on this thread over the topic of brexit... i appreciate it!

i agree with deb houlding in her comments about making predictions way out front of the event..

thanks for the additional articles on this topic.. i am not sure i have the stomach to read them all, but i appreciate your kindness in sharing them..
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it really doesn't matter to me whether UK remains or leaves ;what is more worrying is that with Brexit winning Uranus conj Ceres would become a valid mundane transit.
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
it really doesn't matter to me whether UK remains or leaves ;what is more worrying is that with Brexit winning Uranus conj Ceres would become a valid mundane transit.


Thanks its been quite a heavy thread and that has to be the funniest comment I have seen here! Dont worry the asteroids have also been servicing astrologers predicting a remain vote too.

Mark
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amandaW ( was amelia)



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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
it really doesn't matter to me whether UK remains or leaves ;what is more worrying is that with Brexit winning Uranus conj Ceres would become a valid mundane transit.


Thanks its been quite a heavy thread and that has to be the funniest comment I have seen here! Dont worry the asteroids have also been servicing astrologers predicting a remain vote too.

Mark


Ah yes, but only Ceres shares it's discovery date with the 1 Jan 1801 UK chart!!

I hope you will therefore take it Ceresously Wink
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

amelia wrote:
Mark wrote:
Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
it really doesn't matter to me whether UK remains or leaves ;what is more worrying is that with Brexit winning Uranus conj Ceres would become a valid mundane transit.


Thanks its been quite a heavy thread and that has to be the funniest comment I have seen here! Dont worry the asteroids have also been servicing astrologers predicting a remain vote too.

Mark


Ah yes, but only Ceres shares it's discovery date with the 1 Jan 1801 UK chart!!

I hope you will therefore take it Ceresously Wink


Very Happy

Yes, by an Italian from the present EU .
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