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Thanks James,

Good idea of hers to look more widely at other nativities.

Although like most mods her analysis fixates on outer planet transits. Most modern astrologers would probably concur with her about Cameron. But her analysis seems a bit one sided to me. What about that Pluto square to his Sun? She also ignores his tough solar arcs. She also seems to ignore Johnson has a Jupiter-Jupiter trine all through the campaign!

I am coming from these charts differently as I give a lot of emphasis to profections, then solar returns and only then look at activated transits to activated planets.

Still, i would have to concede I dont feel as confident in predicting here as I did on the Scottish referendum. The astrological indicators do seem more contradictory to me.

Anyway, I will post up more of my own rationale based on natal charts and UK national charts.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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james_m wrote:
it seems the question over whether saturn or mars is the lord of the year for the 2016 ingress was not universal.. would anyone like to add to the discussion on this? i think all of it is relevant to the issue on the uk for 2016...
Thanks for the reminder. Looking back at Goran's remarks in the context of the present situation with Brexit and his nomination of Saturn as LOY was interesting particularly the bit about assassination. I do not think that would play out literally but one Conservative MP has openly and extraordinarily called for a metaphorical stabbing of his own leader and Chancellor

In a later post someone suggests looking at the relevant natal charts of Cameron and Boris Johnson to see if they would reflect the outcome of the referendum but I am not sure this would work. There is a suggestion that Cameron would be ousted by his own side even if the Remain camp prevailed. Perhaps the people would protest if they felt the poll was fixed

Matthew
Matthew Goulding

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Hi Matthew,

Thanks. Any thoughts on the outcome of the referendum yourself?

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Tue May 31, 2016 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Mark wrote:Hi Mathew,

Thanks. Any thoughts on the outcome of the referendum yourself?

Mark
Hi Mark - It is certainly a subject that I have been thinking about and I shall look again at the Astrology . In my opinion the question is best asked by looking at it from a Eurocentric view rather than from the UK

the UK may be a nuisance hovering on the western fringe but money talks and I gather that after Germany the UK is the only nation that pays in more than it takes out. The question is one of shall the EU lose a major ally in an act of rebellion albeit a democratic one

Looking at it from a shall the UK leave point of view reminds the mythical Times headline " Fog in the Channel - continent isolated" :)
Matthew Goulding

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Hi Matthew,
Looking at it from a shall the UK leave point of view reminds the mythical Times headline " Fog in the Channel - continent isolated
Great quote. Apparently it was a real headline! It was a headline in The Times on 22 October, 1957, when air and sea traffic in the English Channel was temporarily shut down. This seemed unfortunate not because it cut Britain off from Europe ? but because it cut Europe off from Britain!

I take your point about a wider EU perspective. But the institution is struggling with various crises such as migrant problem and the increasingly right wing governments in eastern Europe such as Hungary, Slovakia and Poland. How do we separate out a possible UK Brexit?

Still, I think this would be by far the biggest set back for the EU in its entire history.

More practically, which of the various charts for Europe do we use? I favour the 1993 chart as I think the supra-national political aspirations of the EU have only become explicit since then.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

37
Mark wrote: I take your point about a wider EU perspective. But the institution is struggling with various crises such as migrant problem and the increasingly right wing governments in eastern Europe such as Hungary, Slovakia and Poland. How do we separate out a possible UK Brexit?
There is a difference I would say. The disquiet in other European countries has not quite reached the same level as it has in the UK. The renegotiation by the UK was a case of Cameron demanding reform with the threat of the UK breaking away if he did not get it . Pusillanimous though he was this was an act of rebellion more significant than Hungary building a barbed wire fence.

For the rest of Europe we could use the house for the people. For the EU establishment the 10th and perhaps for Britain the 4th as the opposers to the 10th ?

If so for the Brussels ingress Saturn is still LOY following Goran's previous so we now interpret for EU rather than UK. Saturn squares Jupiter L10 as does Mars and I do not think the opposition of Venus ( and Neptune) really does much to break the enclosure so not good for EU

I am not the first to reference "fog in the channel" to the UK in Europe context. A French politician once predicted " Never again will we see this headline in an English paper" after the UK signed some ever closer union treaty. He could be proved wrong

Matthew
Matthew Goulding

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Mjacobwrote:
If so for the Brussels ingress Saturn is still LOY following Goran's previous so we now interpret for EU rather than UK. Saturn squares Jupiter L10 as does Mars and I do not think the opposition of Venus ( and Neptune) really does much to break the enclosure so not good for EU


I haven't checked out the traditional sources thoroughly enough to take a considered view on how the Lord of the Year is determined myself but I just wanted to note that Peter Stockinger (relying on Bonatti) previously suggested Mars was the LOY for the UK in this Aries ingress while in the Aries ingress for Brussels he suggests the LOY shifted to the Moon.

https://starsandstones.wordpress.com/20 ... k-and-usa/

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

39
mark and matthew

thanks for the additional interesting comments!

mark - regarding your last post - that was what i was raising in my post Mon May 02, 2016 3:55 am ..

goran and i had this conversation previously in 2015 and so it was interesting to see peter stockinger coming out suggesting mars as loy, as that was the tact i had taken within the conversation with goran to which goran was firm in saying saturn was loy.. it might not matter if you read the diverse literature on this as there are going to be subjective considerations in any weighing of astrological factors.

matthew - i had to look up pusillanimous! interesting word!!

40


matthew - i had to look up pusillanimous! interesting word!!
yes but in contrast perhaps the Brits will be bolder in backing Brexit in the ballot - will consider further
Matthew Goulding

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James-M wrote:
mark - regarding your last post - that was what i was raising in my post Mon May 02, 2016 3:55 am ..
Yes James I did spot that! I totally missed it at the time as 2015 was something of an annus horribilus for me.

It was an interesting thread. Goran made some very useful observations as did you and Matthew.

I should just mention that Sharon Knight concurs with Goran in assigning Saturn as LOY in the UK ingress.

But ultimately, I am more interested here in where people take such judgements in terms of overall delineation and prediction.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

42
thanks mark,

i like the fact different astrologers arrive at different conclusions.. makes it less black and white to me which i like..

my rationale for mars as loy in the 2016 aries ingress to london might have been similar to stockingers - mars on the midheaven angle and a planet of the nocturnal sect, as opposed to saturn which is ruler of the ascendant.. i like it that astrologers don't arrive at the same conclusions..

as you say, it is more interesting to see the conclusions that go with the astrology..