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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Will the UK leave the EU?
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Mark
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Astrological Association of the UK emailed out some some short articles a few weeks ago by three astrologers discussing the forthcoming British referendum on EU membership. I thought I would share these here for Skyscript members. I have displayed all the charts discussed in these short pieces for easy reference.

The first piece is by Roy Gillett , President of the Astrological Association of the UK. He makes some insightful comments about the dynamics of the campaign but the piece is inconclusive on the actual result on the referendum. Henry Selzer relies heavily on Eris and leans slightly towards a vote to leave. Finally, the award winning traditional astrologer Sharon Knight predicts a likely Brexit based largely on the Aries ingress chart and some other UK charts. You will note I already gave a link to the piece by Peter Stockinger above which also analysed the Aries ingress and reached a similar conclusion.

All three astrologers make reference to the United Kingdom chart for 1801 so I have displayed that along with other charts mentioned such as the close of poll (Gillett), and Aries ingress (Knight).

Roy Gillett on the Referendum

Britain's European Union Vote

Choosing the 23rd June as decision day for the EU referendum was a most risky gamble with the nation's soul. At the time of writing, Brexit versus Stay is little more than a cacophony of contradictory statistics; that will for ever be incomplete and meaningless, while our aim is to do no more than decide which side is best for personal gain.

The Closing of the Poll chart's tight grand cross between Mercury, Jupiter, Saturn Neptune and the nodal axis in mutable signs and succedent houses shows that this confusion will hold right through to the end. It will be difficult for either side to make a reasoned case. Also, whatever they say to the contrary, with Pluto rising as the polls close, both sides will be tempted to see the peddling of fear, as the winning gambit.



However, those relying on this alone may well be wrong footed. For, as the campaign approaches its climax, Jupiter will be moving in and to trine that Pluto less than three days after the polls close. Also crucially, the Moon in Aquarius, applying to trine Venus in Gemini will be just three degrees from the Venus of the 1801 UK Chart. Together these factors suggest that people firstly will be ready to take a plunge into the unknown and reluctant to allow fear to get in the way and secondly they will want to feel good about their decision. They are doing something beautiful for their country.



Predicting mundane events is sometimes possible, but more often outcomes are decided by the use the parties make of the astro-cycles, rather than those cycles alone. So, upon what strategies would victory for either side depend; bearing in mind that not just Jupiter trine Pluto, but Moon, Venus and Mercury in harmony are needed to illuminate the decision?

Brexit campaigners may gain considerable traction by citing out-of-control immigration and loss of sovereignty, but to secure a firm vote will need to move on to an intelligently explained positive glorious vision of the United Kingdom outside the EU. It has to has to be more than a resentment-based rush into 'freedom' from "other people telling us what to do"; especially when the UK government will continue to do just that, whichever way we vote! People will want to know and feel good about the future and see beauty in what will happen the day after, and all the following days after, the country leaves the EU?

Stay campaigners gain some momentum by this 'what happens after leaving' uncertainty; those months and years of negotiation and how certain can we be of the country's financial stability through it all? However, that will not be enough to convince the doubters, with Jupiter trining Pluto and wetting appetites for the risk of the new. The Stay campaigners need to build on the natural pride of the British people of their role in the World; the nation's power to have global influence, using the EU as a platform. They need to show that within the EU the UK can lead reform, bringing a wise sense of perspective and so put right its excesses; generally, not making itself an orphan trying to find new friends and new families to live with, but instead bring people and peoples together in an open-World commonwealth of nations. By this middle way of service, we could demonstrate how to help heal our fractured planet; a regeneration of the role that Britain saw itself playing in its imperial days.

Interestingly the 1801 UK Union Chart has the South Node rising in Libra trine Venus, both in a Grand Trine with the Moon/Mercury Closing of the Polls chart. An intelligent clean-clear invocation of the best that Britain's past stood for and bringing it into the future is the way for either side to win the referendum.

As I write this in March, it really could go either way.

Brexit Vote by Henry Seltzer

I have lately made a lengthy study of the astrological effects of the new planet, Eris, officially named as recently in September 2006 (though some are calling her a "dwarf" planet I take as my lead that this designation puts her in the very same astronomical category as small but potent Pluto). In my work I have shown that Eris can be characterized as a Feminine Warrior energy (in Greek mythology she was the sister to the War God and his battlefield companion). By the designation "Feminine Warrior" I mean an implacable fighter for deep soul intention. More evidence for this characterization keeps pouring in from all sides, everywhere I turn. My book is called The Tenth Planet: Revelations from the Astrological Eris, published by The Wessex Astrologer (details here) and has been very well-received. I have also written an article for The Mountain Astrologer magazine (April 2015). See as well if you like the reviews on amazon here.

Many with strong Eris, such as noted feminist leaders and paradigm shifters, have an urge to follow their own soul-level view of things to the extent that they will sacrifice almost anything for whatever they most deeply believe. A good example is William Blake, with very strong Eris, who articulated his own inner vision at the expense of all else in his life, and a more modern one is U.S. presidential candidate Bernie Sanders. Bernie has some of the same Eris aspects, most notably a partile trine (rather than the square) with Pluto as well as Eris in aspect to Mercury and Uranus. His puckish sense of humor and his carefully articulated stance in support of a revolutionary agenda (Mercury, Uranus) as well as his stamina and doggedness in pursuing his objectives (Pluto) are legendary, as evidenced by his current and unexpectedly successful run for the White House. It is also interesting to note that on the day that he chose to announce his candidacy, the Sun was exactly sextile to his natal Eris, with transiting Eris also in partile conjunction to his Mars.



This brings me to the reason that I proffer this material in the context of Britain's historic upcoming vote on whether to stay in the EU. I was reviewing the chart for the U.K., given as 1 January, 1801, in Nick Campion's well-known reference work The Book of World Horoscopes, and noted that the Saturn in this chart was located at 23 Leo 22, the same degree that Eris and Uranus will occupy in Aries at the time of their conjunction in June. This prompted me to recall to myself the date of the Brexit vote. I wondered, is that also to be in June? and of course it is. The June 23rd positions for Eris and Uranus are 23 Aries 35 and 59, respectively. I was fascinated as well to find that the position of a slowing retrograde Mars, getting ready to station direct in less than a week's time, will then be 23 Scorpio 21, in perfect square - within minutes - to the nation's Saturn degree. Thus I thought to myself, my God, they are going to pull out.

The symbolism is striking, and also the partile nature of these aspects, especially when you consider Saturn's role in a national chart as emblematic of its structure.

Retrograde Mars in partile square with the nation's Saturn position suggests that, when contemplating an action, it is most important to follow internal rather than external considerations. Uranus in trine is also a powerful archetype of individualism and sudden change. Then you add Eris into the mix for good measure, powerfully bringing Uranus to the fore and representing, as I have briefly described above, the strong urge to fight for one's own inner compass, above and beyond all other influences. The trine to national Saturn from Eris is also extremely close that day, within a quarter of a degree, and this in and of itself implies realigning the nation's structure along the lines prompted by deeply personal soul intention.

Incidentally, considering the national Saturn, it is important to note as well that Saturn in the sky that day makes aspects to the nation's Sun degree, a semi-sextile, and to the nation's Mars, a quincunx or inconjunct, within a tenth of a degree, plus an extremely close contra-parallel to national Jupiter as well. This does lend a conservative air to the proceedings that could nudge the vote toward keeping the status quo, so that there are indeed indications on both sides. In any case these aspects from transiting Saturn are also emblematic of an important event taking place, such as of course the decision to withdraw from the EU would be. There is no guarantee with any of these indications, but there are quite a pile of them on the side of rebellion and new directions. If I were a betting man I might be inclined to place my money on the people's voting to abandon the EU, with all the independence of spirit, and the relative political chaos, that that decision would entail.


Brexit - In or out? What does the Astrology indicate? by Sharon Knight

Anyone buying a paper or watching news television could be forgiven for thinking only two items dominate the world, one Will Donald Trump and his hair become the next President of Americaand two, will the UK stay in or leave the EU.

I believe several years ago, Bernadette Brady predicted the White House would remain in the hands of the Democrats. Unfortunately there is not a recorded birth time for Hillary Clinton. She was born on the 26th October 1947 and Donald Trump on the 14th June 1946. Maybe someone would like to write an article on the likely contender for the Summer issue?

Closer to home and nearer at hand is the Brexit issue. The Referendum has been set for the 23rdJune 2016. The polls open at 7.am BST and close at 22.00BST. Some people look at the closing chart and others, the opening of polls.

With this referendum, traditionally we need to look at the Aries Ingress for the country. This has a fixed sign on the Ascendant, so traditionally the chart stands good for the whole year.



Not only is the Referendum being held just two days after the Summer Solstice, but Mars is slowing down prior to turning direct on the 30th June and is on the same degree as when the Referendum was announced on the 20th February 2016 (23 Scorpio). Also Jupiter having turned direct in May, has arrived back at the degree he occupied of the Aries Ingress. (16 Virgo).

The Lord of the Year of the Aries Ingress is Saturn.

Saturn rules the Ascendant, is conjunct the MC and is in Triplicity. He is sextile the Ascendant and in square with Jupiter his dispositor. He is the strongest planet in the chart. Saturn indicates the state of the people of the nation in general as well as indicating those in authority and the middle and upper classes (in good esse) (should there be such a thing today)! He also indicates government ministers. Bonatti says when Saturn is in Sagittarius, with Northern latitude, it signifies a multitude of strong waters and the coldness of winter. When Saturn is oriental, it signifies the nearness of the wealthy from their regions.

One other thing to note is the presence of Mars very close to the MC (and Saturn). This could indicate rebellion, contention and strife throughout the year. Especially considering the conjunction of Mars/Saturn in Sagittarius (the MC of the Ingress chart) in August.

The Moon representing the common people, is located in the fixed sign of Leo, the sign of royalty or sovereignty. Leo is on the 7th house cusp. The Moon is void of course. The common people are in the hands of ministers (This could be all the EU ministers and lords!) and rulers. The 7th is the house of conflicts and contentions as well as known or open enemies. In this case, it doesn't have to be those across the seas! (the 7th is also a countries trading partners!!)

Jupiter, dispositor of Saturn, Mars, Venus and Mercury is in the 8th sign of others assets, in a sign/house where he is ineffective. He is not only in detriment, but also retrograde. By the time of the Referendum, he (whoever Jupiter represents) is having to go back on many promises made regarding status and finances. The Government itself may be in rebellion or certainly divided.

Mercury ruler of the 4th house of land, heritage, the end of the matter, as well as the 8th sign of others assets, the dead, inheritance, is in both detriment and fall; he is drowning in a sea of debt. It may be someone blows the whistle on how much debt is really involved both in the UK and in the EU. Mercury is also close to the fixed star Scheat - Robson says of this star when Mercury is with it: "Many accidents, narrow escapes especially by water, enemies, trouble through writing, bad for domestic affairs".

To briefly sum up the Ingress chart of 2016: it seems there will be open rebellion by both the common people and those in charge. Promises made earlier in the year will be broken. There is likely to be discord over finances, both those of the people and partners with whom the country is engaged. The coming winter will be very cold.



I then compared the Ingress chart with the 1801 unification chart, the chart for when we joined the EU (it was then purely about free trade across the borders) and finally the chart for opening of the polls at 7am BST 23rd June 2016.






I immediately noticed in the quadri-wheel the following connections:
Saturn of the Ingress chart is conjunct the Venus of the EU joining chart and conjunct Mercury of the 1801, as well as being in opposition to Saturn of the EU joining chart and Mercury of the Referendum chart. These are all at 16 degrees of the mutables. The other noticeable aspect was the Moon of the Ingress chart conjunct Saturn of the 1801 chart.

I feel the Venus is worth considering as she rules the Ascendant of the 1801 chart (naturally given the time and date for the inception charts). She falls in the 1st house of the Ingress chart, indicating women may have the casting vote. Venus in the 1801 chart, trines the following - Mercury of the referendum chart, Saturn of the EU joining chart and sextiles mercury (1801) Venus (joining EU) and Saturn of the Ingress chart.

In the 2016 Ingress chart Venus is exalted but not in hayz. She rises before the sun and can be seen in the pre-dawn sky. It was said of Venus in this position she took on the mantle of the warrior Queen. This is not a Venus to mess with.

So what do I think the outcome of the referendum will be using astrological deductions?

I think there will be a last ditch effort by the Government and Brussels to cause a distraction and instill fear in the common people that to leave would be suicide. But I think "others" in the middle ground will see through the smoke and mirrors and elect to leave to preserve Sovereignty, laws of the land and finances. Saturn representing those in authority but not controlling the country. The Mars conjunct the MC indicates rebellion from overseas and possibly from the Forces.

Even though I don't personally see it, I predict we will leave the EU.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In his mundane blog Astrotabletalk the English astrologer Barry Goddard has come out for a likely remain vote in the UK referendum.

Here is recent blog post on the referendum:

http://archive.feedblitz.com/575810/~5175676

He seems to arrive at this conclusion based on an exploration of outer planet transits and especially Pluto transits to David Cameron and Boris Johnson's natal charts.

Barry Goddard writes:
Quote:
The astrological reason I don't think we'll leave is that the transiting square from Pluto to David Cameron's Sun at 15.26 Libra, which is keeping him in power, will not be over for a year or two. Only then will he leave office. If we vote to leave the EU, he won't last 5 minutes. Moreover, if we leave, then Boris' star will rise. Boris' star has already risen to it's maximum height (due to Pluto opposing his MC at 13 Cancer) and he has no major outer planet transits coming up. Therefore we will remain.


Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

thanks for sharing all this.. i was intrigued by the last post you shared of barry goddards article..

first - i don't think pluto is all that positive... i am not sure what he is thinking their other then that camerons sun squared by transiting pluto is beneficial? i don't see that...

the june 23rd transits to the 1801 chart are interesting.. venus is the closest planet to any of the 1801 angles and rules over the 1st and 8th house.. mars in taurus in the 8th has a saturn transit exactly 150 as well.. 1801 mercury seems in focus too given the exact opp to natal mercury of t mercury on june 23rd.. jupiter is almost exact square both these positions as well.. mercury rules the 9/12 houses..

solar arc data to the 1801 chart from here emphasize mars at 11 taurus also in the 8th.. the finances would appear to be the focus for the uk at this point and how it would like to move forward..

as for the comments on david cameron/boris johnson charts and etc, that was interesting.. i did a relocated chart for johnson to london.. it puts his midheaven degree close to where the jupiter/north node is, and of course the sun on june 23rd sits on his natal north node as well.. i sort of see it differently then barry goddard here, but it was great to read another perspective like this.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the spirit of astrological eclecticism I include an article on the EU referendum using Indian astrology by Anil Aggarwala

http://www.astrodocanil.com/2016/05/britain-brink-economy-fall/

I like the fact he uses the UK 1927 chart. In my view its just as revealing at the 1801 chart which most British astrologers use.

But I find the actual analysis way too apocalyptic for my taste. Mr Aggarwala seems more emphatic about impending disasters of every kind for the UK than he is on the actual outcome of the referendum. Although he seems to indicate a Brexit is more likely because it more easily fits his prediction of impending disaster for the UK.

I note he uses an opinion poll indicating a slight edge to Leave. Actually, while online polls show the Remain and Leave Campaigns are neck and neck telephone polling has always indicated the Remain Campaign is way ahead. Polling experts cannot agree why this is happening.

Historically, bookmakers are more reliable than opinion polls. These have the Leave campaign at 7/2 odds or only a 22% likely outcome.

The Remain campaign have been relentlessly emphasizing the potential threat to the UK economy, jobs and incomes Brexit could pose. Its also been claimed the UK could take years to agree its own Trade agreements and face tariffs putting up costs in the meantime. In contrast the Leave campaign are focusing on the effects of uncontrolled EU immigration, the costs of EU membership and the bureacratic and undemocratic nature of the EU.

Both campaigns have been accused of massively exagerrating their case and indulging in blatant propaganda.

There is no doubt the strong suit of the Remain camppaign is the economic case. Domestically the Bank of England and CBI (Confederation of British Industry) have supported the Remain case while a host of International organizations have expressed concern about a potential Brexit such as the IMF, OECD, World Bank, G7 as well as governments leaders across the EU and the US President Barack Obama.

Critics of this view argue these organizations have previously offered wildly inaccurate economic forecasts in the past. Left wing supporters of Brexit also suggest that corporate global interests prefer to see governments like the UK herded into agreements like TPIP in one block with the rest of the EU.

If I was just looking at this politically I would tend to the view that the UK would remain in the EU. People tend to go with the status quo when they are uncertain or scared of the future.

Still, despite the poor betting odds the astrology leads me elsewhere towards a Brexit. If I am wrong i guess I will need to overhaul my techniques!

Mark
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is one little problem with Agarwal's analysis- the moon is 30 min ahead in his chart of UK- he forgot to apply the summertime.That is why the ascendant is way-off.
Finally,he relies heavily on mars' sub-sub period and the planet being in 8th.
With the actual horoscope- it is the Saturn-Ketu-Sun period and sun is the 10th lord in 5th in vargottam navamsha.
He uses Lahiri ayanamsha.

PD
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Mark
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
There is one little problem with Agarwal's analysis- the moon is 30 min ahead in his chart of UK- he forgot to apply the summertime.That is why the ascendant is way-off.
Finally,he relies heavily on mars' sub-sub period and the planet being in 8th.
With the actual horoscope- it is the Saturn-Ketu-Sun period and sun is the 10th lord in 5th in vargottam navamsha.
He uses Lahiri ayanamsha. PD


Thanks Pankajdubey,

I missed that. Rather embarrasing for Mr Aggarwala. Embarassed

I wonder if anyone has pointed out his error to him?

Since Mr Aggarwala's analysis appears to be invalid would you be willing to unpack what you think this chart (or any other chart) is showing for the UK from a Jyotish angle?

Mark
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow, sidereal virgo appears to be prominent , it is the ascendant in Rome treaty,EEC and UK joining EEC charts.

I am not sure what 1927 chart has to do with EU.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat May 28, 2016 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
Somehow, sidereal virgo appears to be prominent , it is the ascendant in Rome treaty,EEC and UK joining EEC charts.


So does this connection lead you to the view that the UK will favour continuity with these charts ie remaining in the EU?

Pankajdubey wrote:
Quote:
I am not sure what 1927 chart has to do with EU.


Nothing specifically. But this is a major issue for the future of the United Kingdom. So it seems reasonable to expect to see such a dramatic issue to be reflected in a national chart (whether 1066, 1801 or 1927). Especially, if the UK ends up exiting the EU.

Mark
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ModWasp



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Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had a fairly active role in this issue. I'm not going to make any predictions here as sport is my personal arena. However, i do note that the charts i've been studying all have a rather interesting Moon placement.

Lisbon Treaty 12:00pm 13.12.2007, Lisbon. Moon 03ºAqu39'
Treaty of Rome 18:30 CET, 25.3.1957, Rome - Moon 02ºAqu34'
Opening Polls 07.00am 23.6.2016, local, - Moon - 05ºAqu22'
even my own horary "Will UK leave Eu'? had Moon at 02ºAqu46'

It would be interesting to think that the grand cross of 21st April 2014, where we heard all about the 'restructuring', 'breaking down' renewal' etc..of the political system was triggered by the Moon squaring the Sun on 22nd April 2014 - that's right folks - at 02ºAqu06'!

I have my fingers crossed that the UK does leave the eu, but my feeling is that the government will engineer the result to suit.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

marjorie orr seems to lean towards no brexit... her astrology is scattered around under a search at her site for brexit..
the main post focuses on camerons chart being upbeat at the time of june 23rd...
here is the general link to brexit search -

http://star4cast.ca/?s=brexit

and the more specific brexit / cameron post -

http://star4cast.ca/brexit-cameron-looking-upbeat-come-june-23/
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Mark
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks James,

Good idea of hers to look more widely at other nativities.

Although like most mods her analysis fixates on outer planet transits. Most modern astrologers would probably concur with her about Cameron. But her analysis seems a bit one sided to me. What about that Pluto square to his Sun? She also ignores his tough solar arcs. She also seems to ignore Johnson has a Jupiter-Jupiter trine all through the campaign!

I am coming from these charts differently as I give a lot of emphasis to profections, then solar returns and only then look at activated transits to activated planets.

Still, i would have to concede I dont feel as confident in predicting here as I did on the Scottish referendum. The astrological indicators do seem more contradictory to me.

Anyway, I will post up more of my own rationale based on natal charts and UK national charts.

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


it seems the question over whether saturn or mars is the lord of the year for the 2016 ingress was not universal.. would anyone like to add to the discussion on this? i think all of it is relevant to the issue on the uk for 2016...


Thanks for the reminder. Looking back at Goran's remarks in the context of the present situation with Brexit and his nomination of Saturn as LOY was interesting particularly the bit about assassination. I do not think that would play out literally but one Conservative MP has openly and extraordinarily called for a metaphorical stabbing of his own leader and Chancellor

In a later post someone suggests looking at the relevant natal charts of Cameron and Boris Johnson to see if they would reflect the outcome of the referendum but I am not sure this would work. There is a suggestion that Cameron would be ousted by his own side even if the Remain camp prevailed. Perhaps the people would protest if they felt the poll was fixed

Matthew
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matthew,

Thanks. Any thoughts on the outcome of the referendum yourself?

Mark
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Mjacob



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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Hi Mathew,

Thanks. Any thoughts on the outcome of the referendum yourself?

Mark


Hi Mark - It is certainly a subject that I have been thinking about and I shall look again at the Astrology . In my opinion the question is best asked by looking at it from a Eurocentric view rather than from the UK

the UK may be a nuisance hovering on the western fringe but money talks and I gather that after Germany the UK is the only nation that pays in more than it takes out. The question is one of shall the EU lose a major ally in an act of rebellion albeit a democratic one

Looking at it from a shall the UK leave point of view reminds the mythical Times headline " Fog in the Channel - continent isolated" Smile
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Matthew,

Quote:
Looking at it from a shall the UK leave point of view reminds the mythical Times headline " Fog in the Channel - continent isolated


Great quote. Apparently it was a real headline! It was a headline in The Times on 22 October, 1957, when air and sea traffic in the English Channel was temporarily shut down. This seemed unfortunate not because it cut Britain off from Europe – but because it cut Europe off from Britain!

I take your point about a wider EU perspective. But the institution is struggling with various crises such as migrant problem and the increasingly right wing governments in eastern Europe such as Hungary, Slovakia and Poland. How do we separate out a possible UK Brexit?

Still, I think this would be by far the biggest set back for the EU in its entire history.

More practically, which of the various charts for Europe do we use? I favour the 1993 chart as I think the supra-national political aspirations of the EU have only become explicit since then.

Mark
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