skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

pushing management

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2637
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: pushing management Reply with quote

ben dykes 'astrology of the world' volume 2 ( i haven't read volume 1) discusses this concept a lot without going into much detail of what it means, other then describing a number of examples.. i have found it generally confusing so far and i am into the book over 300 pages.. i thought i would go back to ita - introduction to traditional astrology - another ben dykes book, meant to illuminate many of the ideas found in traditional astrology.. there is some info on this concept, but not much!

perhaps some of the more illuminated ones here at skyscript could comment, or anyone with some thoughts on this who would be interested in commenting on the idea more generally.

thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings,

My own understanding of the many “pushings”. There are three types of “pushings”. ALL of them requires planet A applying to planet B:

Pushing Nature
[Abu Ma’shar and Al-Qabisi] Pushing Nature is when planet A applies to Planet B and planet A is in planet B’s essential dignity, i.e. in B’s domicile, exaltation, term, triplicity or face: then A pushes its nature onto B. [Sahl] limits to domicile and exaltation only. Ben Dykes translates as ‘pushing of arrangement’ or ‘pushing of disposition and nature’ in Sahl’s book (see section 5.13). Observe that in the case of A pushing nature onto B, B automatically receives A (reception by classical Arabic-Medieval definition).

Pushing nature means that the pushing planet (A) impresses its nature onto the receiving planet (B). In Abu Ma’shar’s Greater Introduction, it often seems to have to do with taking the elemental qualities (hot, cold, wet and dry) of the pushing planet – typical of Aristotelian astrology.

Pushing Power
[Abu Ma’shar and Al-Qabisi] Pushing Power (or Strength) is when planet A is in its own house or its own exaltation or the other dignities, and applies to another planet (B): then A pushes its power/strength onto B. [Sahl] again limits to domicile and exaltation only. Ben Dykes translates as ‘pushing strength/virtue’ in Sahl’s book (see section 5.12).

Pushing power may mean that the receiving planet (B) gets power and competence from the pushing planet (A). The receiving planet benefits from the pusher’s essential (and possibly accidental) strengths.

Pushing Management or Counsel
[Abu Ma’shar] Pushing Management or Counsel is when A applies to B and A is neither in any of its own essential dignities (peregrine) nor in any of B’s essential dignities.

Pushing management or counsel impresses the duties (or significations?) of the pusher (A) to the receiving planet (B). Indeed, if they were in trine/trigonal or sextile/hexagonal or together (conjunction), it is good; but in square/tetragonal or opposite ones, the contrary i.e. A provides bad counsel.

My own take (you have been warned!):
I tend to agree with Sahl that we should limit to domicile and exaltation only when defining these “pushings”. Without going into much detail, I believe that the other essential dignities reflect different states of “dignities”.

However, my own take is even more limiting. I believe that pushing nature should be limited to only domicile and pushing power limited to exaltation. When A is applying to B and A is in B’s domicile, A is practically in B’s house. While B has to give reception to A, A is bringing its own nature to B’s house and hence, “pushes” his nature onto B (by applying to B). Therefore, I think pushing nature should be limited to domicile only.

When it comes to pushing power, A applies to B and A is in its own exaltation (which gives power to A whereas domicile gives resources not power) and A pushes power to B (by applying to B).

One other thing, I also think that these pushings will only be successful when the applying aspect completes (perfects).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2637
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrojin,

thanks so much! it's always a treat to read your insightful viewpoint. while i still have to think it thru, your words are very helpful.. thanks!

i was in your beautiful country in january and met many wonderful people while their.. i thought about you prior to going.. thanks again - james
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You were here!

You should have pm me!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 127

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,
you posted something very similar years ago, and I've been using it in my delineations ever since. It seems to work quite well, but without the limitations you came up with in your recent contribution. Will have to experiment a bit more still, but my impression so far is, that pushing virtue/power, and pushing nature works quite well with both domicile and exaltation dignity. I don't use them with the smaller ones. Anyhow, I'm actually posting to say thanks for (a lot) of your explanations way back, I found them very interesting and helpful in understanding traditional concepts. I hope you'll be around more again.
Yuki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Yuki,

Yes, it's better to stick first to both domiciles and exaltations for both pushing nature and power (Sahl's version) and make empirical experiment with that (they seem to work). When I made the "claims" that domicile is for pushing nature and exaltation is more towards pushing power, I was actually referring to priorities and not exclusivities (more for theoretical discussion). Apologies for not making it clear.

And you're welcome!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 127

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin,
I have a question that pops up occasionally, and I'd like to ask for your (or anyone elses) opinion on that. Would you say that in natal astrology the concept of barring or intervention applies? Say we had Moon in Cancer applying to Saturn in Virgo. Moon pushes her virtue upon Saturn thus making it less malefic (well, in my understanding anyhow, this is how I use it). But if Moon applies to another planet in an earlier degree, would you say that the pushing is negated? And what would that mean for the aspect between Moon and Saturn? There's not much reception (only triplicity), so would it have any effect at all?

Also way back, when you first explained the concept of pushing, I copied all that, and you posed some questions at the end which weren't answered as far as I remember, so I'll quote you if you don't mind and ask if you have come to any conclusion in this regard. Here goes:

Examples with questions:
1. Moon (8Sco) applying to Mars (10Cap). Moon pushes nature to Mars. Mars receives Moon. It seems that Mars receiving Moon is OK but would Moon push her nature when she is in her depression?

2. Moon (8Can) applying to Mars (10Sco). Moon pushes power, strength or virtue to Mars but Moon is pushing to her depressed sign. What does this mean to the power pushed by Moon? Would she want to do the pushing? Mars “rejects” Moon because she is in his enemy’s house (the reverse of reception). What would this “rejection” do to the power pushed by Moon? Btw, both are proud where they are as both are in their domiciles. However, both are of the same sect and the aspect is the best aspect friendship (trine).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Yuki,

Quote:
Say we had Moon in Cancer applying to Saturn in Virgo. Moon pushes her virtue upon Saturn thus making it less malefic

When you say making Saturn less malefic, I have to ask why do you say that Saturn is malefic in the first place. I guess you are referring to the signification of Saturn as the greater malefic (which in my opinion is not enough to make a greater or lesser malefic viz. Saturn and Mars being externally malefic to others unless they happen to be in signs and/or houses that support them being really malefic. A happy and contented evil person usually is not that harmful to another). In addition, I also have to ask, malefic to whom? A malefic planet (say Saturn or Mars in signs and/or houses that support their being malevolent) will not harm another unless the maleficence reach them by conjunction or stressfull aspects (square and opposition) for connection has to be made by the malefic to another for the harm to be effective. Evem if the connection is made, the connection has be stressful enough for the connection to be harmful (not via sextile or trine).

Coming back to your question on whether pushing is negated, it is a little bit more complex for we are dealing with two different interpretations for different use of charts (natal and horary). Though we use the same "chart" and the same "concepts" but the "techniques" are different!

In a natal chart, we look at everything but in a horary, we only look at the signifcators that are pertinent to the query.

In your question, the barring will be important in horary if the one doing the barring is significant to the question (like if it happens to signify a rival). Say you ask about a job that you are applying and your significator is applying (pushes management) to the lord of the tenth but the lord of seventh applies first to the lord of the tenth - then the barring occurs because the seventh can mean a rival candidate. The pushing done by you does not mean you are going to get it because it is not perfected prior to another who perfects with the tenth. However, if another, who is not significant to the query, applies first to your significator, then it might just be a friend who happens to knock on your door prior to the boss whom you queries about!

In natal, the barring may not be as important because they might simply mean evidence of more than one significators or maybe sequence of events.

Answers to the other questions that were posed:
Quote:
1. Moon (8Sco) applying to Mars (10Cap). Moon pushes nature to Mars. Mars receives Moon. It seems that Mars receiving Moon is OK but would Moon push her nature when she is in her depression?

Yes, moon will still push her nature but she has very little resources to do. Hence, she is not pushing, rather she is requesting/pleading to Mars who happily provides because he is the house lord of where Moon is and is in the position to do so (he is exalted) and the relationship is the best (trine).

Quote:
2. Moon (8Can) applying to Mars (10Sco). Moon pushes power, strength or virtue to Mars but Moon is pushing to her depressed sign. What does this mean to the power pushed by Moon? Would she want to do the pushing? Mars “rejects” Moon because she is in his enemy’s house (the reverse of reception). What would this “rejection” do to the power pushed by Moon? Btw, both are proud where they are as both are in their domiciles. However, both are of the same sect and the aspect is the best aspect friendship (trine).

Moon will not push her power to the place of her dejection nor Mars will push power to his place of dejection. Rejection also occurs even if Moon does push her power. However both are sect mates and the aspect is good (trine). Hence, they will resolve whatever matter in a good way (trine) but each will not offer anything to the other (they will not part with they already have). Even if, anything is offerred, it will be rejected by the other (reverse reception). Why? Because both already have what they need (both in their own domiciles) i.e. they are self sufficient.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 127

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Astrojin,

Quote:
When you say making Saturn less malefic, I have to ask why do you say that Saturn is malefic in the first place. I guess you are referring to the signification of Saturn as the greater malefic (which in my opinion is not enough to make a greater or lesser malefic viz. Saturn and Mars being externally malefic to others unless they happen to be in signs and/or houses that support them being really malefic. A happy and contented evil person usually is not that harmful to another). In addition, I also have to ask, malefic to whom? A malefic planet (say Saturn or Mars in signs and/or houses that support their being malevolent) will not harm another unless the maleficence reach them by conjunction or stressfull aspects (square and opposition) for connection has to be made by the malefic to another for the harm to be effective. Evem if the connection is made, the connection has be stressful enough for the connection to be harmful (not via sextile or trine).


I realize Saturn isn't always a malefic per definition, it could even become an accidental benefic if placements in the chart were to favor that. I was thinking more along the lines of Saturn in 12th in Virgo, which would make it the Asc exaltationruler, and would thus signify the native. In 12th Saturn is in its joy, but being of little dignitiy or even peregrine, I do think it will symbolize problems for the native eg in the form of chronical healthproblems or problems in connection with family, and as such Saturn would have to be seen as a malefic in the chart imo. Of course there should be other testimony to confirm this, eg Saturn also being the out of sect malefic. In that case Moon would be the sect light, it would be in Hayz and in the 10th house. So it seems that it could really mitigate the bad situation in the 12th.
At least that's how I understand the concept of pushing virtue: pushing its essential strength upon another planet or light, thus improving the latter's quality. And Moon being the ruler of the 10th by position and sign could mean that the mother and or the professional life has a positive effect on the 12th house situation.
All else being equal as they always say.
Would you agree with my interpretation?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 459

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Apologies for taking too long to reply. Too busy with so many things...

I guess I agree with your interpretation though I usually do not make general delienation with a ruler of house which he does not see. In general delineation, I will not use Saturn to describe the native (even though it is exalted lord of first) when it does not see/aspect the first. I would use the main luminary (if it fits) to describe the native. Still I agree with you that the applying sextile aspect of moon (in her domicile) to Saturn pushes power to Saturn and hence, mitigates Saturn's malevolence;. Hence, it helps Saturn and what Saturn rules (excluding the houses it does not aspect/see).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 127

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem, thanks for answering.
Best,
Yuki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated