I recognize that this is a traditional astrology site, but the modern "outers" (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) emerge in discussions from time to time. Another occasional topic is a justification of traditional astrology, partially based on a critique of modern astrology. The crituque is based upon various rationales.

I wanted to address dwarf planet Eris (discovered in 2005) in the context of the modern rulerships (some might prefer the term "affinities") between:

Uranus: Aquarius
Neptune: Pisces
Pluto: Scorpio

One criticism of modern astrology's supposed "anything goes" philosophy is that the traditional planet-sign rulerships (domiciles) are based on a Hellenistic model (popularized by Ptolemy) that starts with the sun=Leo and moon=Cancer, and then traces the subsequent planetary rulerships through the planets' distance from the sun and the signs' calendar time from Cancer-Leo, ending with Saturn=Capricorn and Aquarius.

Some astrologers in either camp use the modern outers by doubling up two planets per sign. Some moderns substitute the modern outers for the traditional rulers.

Even astrologers who don't use Uranus or Neptune track the logic of assigning modern rulers according to the plan of assigning Uranus to Aquarius and Neptune to Pisces, if we view Saturn as the ruler of Capricorn and move out from there.

But some balk at assigning Pluto to Scorpio on the grounds that it breaks up the linear logic: by rights, shouldn't Pluto belong to Aries?

I've recently been pondering dwarf planet Eris. There is a debate about whether it is larger than Pluto or about the same size. Its orbit is about 558 years, compared with Pluto's 248 years. But not only is the orbit of Eris elliptical and off the ecliptic, at times Eris swings inside the orbit of Pluto, and even come close to the orbit of Neptune. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eris_(dwarf_planet) (Click on the orbit picture in this article to get a clearer picture.) Apparently Pluto can also swing inside the orbit of Neptune.

This might raise some doubts about the utility of the model of calendrical time/distance measures for the modern outers.

Mythological Eris was the goddess of discord and strife, the sister of the god Mars (Ares.) Mythologically Eris was described as delighting in battle, the bloodier, the better. The astronomer who discovered Eris informally named it Xena, after the TV woman warrior, but the IAU adopted a name from classical mythology, instead. Given astronomical Eris's orbit, and mythological Erisis' affinity with Mars, perhaps her affinity with the sign of Aries, if any, should be further explored.

After all, mythological planetary gods' stories and personal qualities explain many of their astrological rulerships today. Mars was the mythical god of war before he became Mars the astrological planet.

In the meantime, Eris's partial orbit inside the orbit of Pluto is one reason not to concern ourselves with Pluto getting turfed out of Aries as the basis for a critique of modern astrology. Another (dwarf) planet sometimes takes Pluto's place.

This begs the question of Pluto=Scorpio, but I'll leave it at that!

The New Horizons space probe should be sending us pictures of Pluto later this month.

Waybread wrote:

I recognize that this is a traditional astrology site, but the modern "outers" (Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) emerge in discussions from time to time. Another occasional topic is a justification of traditional astrology, partially based on a critique of modern astrology. The crituque is based upon various rationales.

I'm sure you know this already Waybread but for the benefit of any new lurkers thinking of posting here I should recap its only the traditional forum that is explicitly traditional on Skyscript. There is certainly no obligation for contributors on the Nativities & General, Mundane or Sport and Speculation forums to be be in any way 'traditional'. I think its just that the excelllence of Deborah Houlding's site makes it a natural magnet for traditionally minded astrologers. However, the prominence of that astrological demographic is not the same as any kind of guidance or direction on what kind of astrology people need to practice here.

The horary forum is a bit of a special case since there are some conventions on how that kind of astrology should be done that could be described as ''traditional''. Still, I imagine there would be no problem if someone made it clear they were approaching horary in a slightly different way.

Mark

I was thinking about this the other day when noticing Pluto crossing its own South Node in 2018. I think you know I don't think the outer planets rule signs, but I'm open to them having an affinity. This is an idea I had recently though about that possibility.

I was re-reading some long forgotten philosophical ideas by Robert Zoller recently; his idea and perhaps others - that the 7 planets generate the zodiacal signs. His central principle in delineation is that the planet generates the sign and house as best as it can and then passes it over to other planets that have further ability to determine it better by affinity/rulership or power as almuten/ triplicity lord etc.

So it's the planet on the ecliptic that generates the sign they are in themselves. The signs are superimposed on their paths and not the other way around.The traditional planets may vary very slightly from the path of the Sun, but that would be expected in a corrupted image of platonic ideals.

The outer planets seem to bring about change powerfully, suddenly or 'dissolveably' So maybe because their paths are so off the ecliptic they are even more removed and further from platonic ideals than the traditional planets, which seem to bring about more purposeful change because they can refer themselves back to archetypes they helped create.

These archetypes can then colour the outer planets because they have already been generated, as in 'Pluto generations' - but the outer planets don't colour or create the archetypes because they were created before they were:

If looking at the Thema Mundi you read the Sun and Moon coming first, and all the other planets got as far away from them as possible through expansion and heat, they were there first before you can double back and apply rulership of the outers to signs already generated.

However, perhaps they have to double back and wrap around the zodiacal signs because there is nowhere else to go - which is why I prefer affinity to rulership.

Phantastikon wrote:I was thinking about this the other day when noticing Pluto crossing its own South Node in 2018. I think you know I don't think the outer planets rule signs, but I'm open to them having an affinity. This is an idea I had recently though about that possibility.

I was re-reading some long forgotten philosophical ideas by Robert Zoller recently; his idea and perhaps others - that the 7 planets generate the zodiacal signs. His central principle in delineation is that the planet generates the sign and house as best as it can and then passes it over to other planets that have further ability to determine it better by affinity/rulership or power as almuten/ triplicity lord etc.

So it's the planet on the ecliptic that generates the sign they are in themselves. The signs are superimposed on their paths and not the other way around.The traditional planets may vary very slightly from the path of the Sun, but that would be expected in a corrupted image of platonic ideals.

The outer planets seem to bring about change powerfully, suddenly or 'dissolveably' So maybe because their paths are so off the ecliptic they are even more removed and further from platonic ideals than the traditional planets, which seem to bring about more purposeful change because they can refer themselves back to archetypes they helped create.

These archetypes can then colour the outer planets because they have already been generated, as in 'Pluto generations' - but the outer planets don't colour or create the archetypes because they were created before they were:

If looking at the Thema Mundi you read the Sun and Moon coming first, and all the other planets got as far away from them as possible through expansion and heat, they were there first before you can double back and apply rulership of the outers to signs already generated.

However, perhaps they have to double back and wrap around the zodiacal signs because there is nowhere else to go - which is why I prefer affinity to rulership.

I like that you mentioned planetary nodes
Pluto was discovered when it was conjunct its own North Node


Eris is my favorite object in Astrology.

I have 3 Eris Astrology books.

I am drawn to Eris because I have very strong Eris energy.


In Ecliptic Longitude:

Eris
conjunct Chiron ? 1'42
oppose Uranus ? 3'02
trine Ceres ? 1'42
sextile/trine Midheaven/Imum Coeli ? 1'00
sextile/trine Lunar Nodes ? 1'45
quincunx/semisextile Ascendant/Descendant ? 1'12
biquintile Mercury ? '05
novile Moon ? '55

Eris,Lunar Node,Midheaven configuration has corresponding midpoint picture of
Eris conjunct Midheaven/Node ? 1'23
Midheaven square Eris/Node ? '07

In Right Ascension (Equatorial Longitude):
Eris
trine Ceres ? 1'23
quincunx Venus ? '09
semisquare Moon ? '07
semisquare Saturn ? '56.
triseptile Mercury ? '17
septile Mars - '54
My Moon,Saturn,Eris 8th Harmonic triangle has corresponding midpoint picture of Eris conjunct Moon/Saturn ? '32. Eris is also conjunct Mars/Midheaven ? '11 and oppose Sun/Pluto ? '33. My Mercury triseptile Eris is part of a Mercury,Mars,Eris 7th Harmonic triangle with all 3 aspects within 1 degree orb. I have Mercury biseptile Mars ? '36 and Mars septile Eris ? '54. The number 7 is associated with all that is strange and unusual. Robert Hand wrote that it is like a combination of Uranus and Neptune.

I like my Ceres trine Eris.
I always liked that Ceres got upgraded to dwarf planet because of Eris while people were complaining about Pluto being downgraded to dwarf planet.

Declination (Equatorial Latitude):
Eris
parallel Mars ? '47
contraparallel Pluto - '20
I was born during on the day of an exact annual Sun-Earth-Eris Node alignment.
Sun in 5'20 Scorpio (Earth in 5'20 Taurus in Heliocentric)
conjunct Geocentric South Eris Node in 5'29 Scorpio
conjunct Geocentric South Eris Node in 5'30 Scorpio
oppose Geocentric North Eris Node in 5'30 Taurus
oppose/conjunct Heliocentric Eris Nodes in 5'30 Taurus/Scorpio


On the day that I was born,
Mercury set at 6:41 PM
Eris rose at 6:43 PM
I have a Mercury-Eris paran


My very strong Eris energy plays a part as

1. multi-subracial ?Black?,?White?, Amerindian and never followed the unofficial one drop rule (you're part black,and so you're black) in regards to race
Genealogical Ancestry
https://www.facebook.com/notes/raymond- ... 9973761624

2. have high estrogen and lower than average testosterone with highly feminine ratio (index fingers longer than ring fingers which indicate I was exposed to more estrogen than testosterone in the womb) and not fitting with male stereotypes that led some people to mistake me for being homosexual and my belief in women's rights and homosexual rights

3. neurodivergent with Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD and was in special education system and supports the Neurodiversity Movement. I created and run Developmental Neurodiversity Association facebook group. I was told that my main life purpose is to help the Indigo, Crystal Children which I believe is just a label for neurodivergent children that fit the dual exceptional.

4. my beliefs fit with New Age, Neopaganism, New Thought, and Universalism. I have been a member of a Unity Church and Unitarian Universalist Church. I am part of multiple Pagan meetups. I am also interested in Religious Science. I am also interested in checking out a Spiritualist Church in my area.

I think Ptolemy's Day and Night Rulership scheme makes more sense, and so I don't agree with outerplanets ruling zodiac signs.

I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in tropical Scorpio (in sidereal Libra)
I definitely don't agree with Pluto ruling zodiac signs.
I don't believe that any of the transneptunian objects should rule any zodiac signs. Pluto is one of many transneptunian objects.
There have been large transneptunian objects discovered since the turn of the 21st Century.

I am very strong in transneptunian dwarf planet/candidate energy that includes Eris,Ixion,Orcus,Varuna,Sedna,Haumea,Quaoar,Varda, and 2002 MS4.

Eris is clearly being described in terms that associate her with Venus, the only inner planet that has not yet been allocated an outer planet pair, so that both Libra and Taurus are still only ruled by Venus.

I read somewhere that in Mayan astrology, Venus was regarded as a planet of war, and I think I remember reading that there were something like five of them, or five forms of Venus.

My opinion is that all these bodies like Eris only relate to IsisTranspluto, which indeed pairs with Venus and rules either Libra or Taurus, and probably Libra given that I have noticed how common it is to find that military generals are Librans. If you did a survey of the top military, you would probably find a lot of Librans.

It would be misleading to call bodies like Eris satellites of IsisTranspluto, as they are not Moons but something like representatives on this dimension of something bigger and far more powerful - IsisTranspluto - which exists on a different dimension and cannot be seen on this one.

I think maybe these representatives of IsisTranspluto on this dimension are the same as the relationship between the Asteroids and the exploded Sun called Phaethon, which cannot be seen on this dimension but is what was there before the asteroids formed from its destruction.

But maybe in the same way as astrologers don't consider the Moons of planets such as Mars or Jupiter separately from those planets, I am not in a hurry to consider Eris separately from IsisTranspluto, and am not a fan of asteroids.

Raymond, thanks for sharing your experiences.

Fleur, you wrote:

Eris is clearly being described in terms that associate her with Venus, the only inner planet that has not yet been allocated an outer planet pair, so that both Libra and Taurus are still only ruled by Venus.

I suppose it depends which modern source one consults, but the only outer planet modern rulerships I'm aware of share the podium with Mars (Scorpio), Saturn (Aquarius) and Jupiter (Pisces.) Or perhaps you were thinking of something else.

I read somewhere that in Mayan astrology, Venus was regarded as a planet of war, and I think I remember reading that there were something like five of them, or five forms of Venus.

I don't know about the Mayans, but in ancient Near Eastern omen astrology their goddess/stellar prototypes for the Roman Venus could be very warlike, indeed.

However, we really have to think through the concept of sign rulership. It is far more than just an affinity. A sign ruler has a lot of serious work to do in horoscope interpretation. And somebody just has to do the research to see if it pans out.

I once tried to track the source of the idea that despite Libra's reputation for diplomacy, there were actually a lot of Libra-sun generals. I also looked at a lot of generals' charts on the Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst, and don't think this holds up in the aggregate.

Currently astronomers classify Eris (along with Pluto and a few others) as a dwarf planet. This classification has to do with its gravitational properties. Of course, a moon orbits a planet, dwarf or full-sized; which Eris does not. Asteroids do not share the gravitational properties of planets or dwarf planets.

waybread wrote:
I suppose it depends which modern source one consults, but the only outer planet modern rulerships I'm aware of share the podium with Mars (Scorpio), Saturn (Aquarius) and Jupiter (Pisces.) Or perhaps you were thinking of something else.

Planetary pairs are Sun and Moon (Leo and Cancer), Mercury and Chiron (Gemini and Virgo), Venus and IsisTranspluto (Taurus and Libra?), Mars and Pluto (Aries and Scorpio), Jupiter and Neptune (Sagittarius and Pisces), Saturn and Uranus (Capricorn and Aquarius).

So the only unacknowledged planet so far is IsisTranspluto, which probably rules Libra.

I think maybe these planets like Eris would come under IsisTranspluto in the same way that Phobos and Demos (the Moons of Mars) come under Mars, or the asteroids come under Phaethon.

And yes, Phaethon's rulership is a mystery, but it is an exploded Sun that was once the binary twin of our Sun.

waybread wrote:
I once tried to track the source of the idea that despite Libra's reputation for diplomacy, there were actually a lot of Libra-sun generals. I also looked at a lot of generals' charts on the Astro-DataBank at Astrodienst, and don't think this holds up in the aggregate.

I didn't realise it was a recognised idea, it was something that I observed, based on both famous generals and others who do similar things, and also people I have met who were in the army at a high level, and Librans who just seem to be interested in and understand military strategy.

Famous Libran generals include Horatio Nelson (29 September 1758) and Juan Peron (8 October 1895).

Including Nazi generals
Heinrich Alfred Hermann Walther von Brauchitsch (4 October 1881)
Friedrich Wilhelm Ernst Paulus (23 September 1890)
Walter Karl Ernst August von Reichenau (8 October 1884)
Wilhelm Bodewin Johann Gustav Keitel (22 September 1882)
Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen (10 October 1895)
and of course Heinrich Himmler (7th October 1900)

I find going through lists of generals I have never heard of difficult. It is imo better to think of the really outstanding generals and military strategists from history who everyone has heard of. Pity we often don't have dates of birth, I am sure Hannibal was a Libran.

And then you have politicians like Margaret Thatcher, David Cameron and Vladimir Putin, all Sun Librans who like strategy.

Fleur, try going through American generals. The Libra sun relationship just isn't there as a "signature". With all of the thousands of military generals throughout history, of course we will find a few; but not necessarily any more than are linked to other sun-signs.

Chiron is not widely recognized as affiliated with Virgo. Has anybody demonstrated how it works as a house-cusp ruler? Mythologically Chiron was probably the centaur of Sagittarius. I use asteroids on occasion and do not affiliate them with particular signs. If you don't use asteroids, then I am unclear as to why you should associate it with Phaeton (a solar figure in mythology.)

I practice mostly-modern astrology. But Phaeton and Isis/trans-Pluto are just not on my radar. Or NASA's.

waybread wrote:Fleur, try going through American generals. The Libra sun relationship just isn't there as a "signature". With all of the thousands of military generals throughout history, of course we will find a few; but not necessarily any more than are linked to other sun-signs.

I have noticed strikingly that top politicians, prime ministers and cabinet ministers, and well known opposition spokesmen and women, in the UK and Europe are Cardinal signs, whereas in America this just isn't the case.

If you made a list of all the British prime ministers, and cabinet ministers, and leaders and main lights in the opposition party, and highlighted the Cardinal signs, I am sure this would show statistically as it is overwhelming to observation.

Libra is a Cardinal sign, and among these. It is a political animal.

I don't know why the only Libran United States president I can think of is Jimmy Carter.

I am not a statisitician, and often find their results meaningless because they just take a sample of nonentities who nobody has heard of, so they are just names and we don't know anything at all about them individually. When you say Vladimir Putin, or Horatio Nelson, everyone knows quite a lot about him.

waybread wrote:.

Chiron is not widely recognized as affiliated with Virgo. Has anybody demonstrated how it works as a house-cusp ruler? .

I don't use house cusp rulers. I did try after reading the horary forum and the sports and speculation forum, but they really don't seem to mean anything. Especially as many people who use them use Equal Houses, which I haven't used since I first learnt astrology and found Placidean cusps work better. So imo there is no evidence that house cusps or house cusp rulers mean anything.

Chiron has many similarities, especially to do with healing, with Mercury. Mercury was a "trickster" and Chiron is wounded, which are about duality and mutability. I can't answer your question in one rushed post, but I take Chiron absolutely for granted, use it all the time, and get really annoyed when in an ephemeris Chiron is either left out or only given for the first day of the month, whereas space is given to some squiggle representing some asteroid or Eris.