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Will the querent be fired?
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:21 am    Post subject: Will the querent be fired? Reply with quote

http://www.astro.com/tmpd/cn0jfileeZ4LgH-u1019876821/astro_2gw_1913_anonymous.4192.10817.gif?19279

That's the horary chart. Question asked was "will I be fired?"

I don't even know what to say - late ascendant says it's too late - the answer is "no." However Saturn is EXACTLY on the Ascendant! Good thing Saturn is in sect, but it is not a trigon for either the ascendant nor the Moon. And thirdly, the Moon applies to Saturn, but Saturn is not the lord of the Ascendant - which indicates a 'no.' All in all I think this horary says "no," but that Saturn right on the Ascendant...Usually a bad sign - but in this case a bad sign for the question of whether the querent will be fired is a good sign.

Thoughts?
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may mean that the querent does not have the full info.
The house signification does change if the house system is changed.

NN in the 10th, Sagittarius is intercepted (Placidus but not regio)in 1st and Jupiter trines it.Moreover,11th lord venus conjuncts intercepted 1st lord Jupiter and may even translate light from Mercury the 10th lord.

The fear or confusion comes from intercepted 8th lord moon trine saturn in the 1st.
If the querent was an astrologer asking the question then it applies to the astrologer.

POF is in Sagittarius and Jupiter trines it.

PD


Edited to resize the image
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StellarTiggy



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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. Can anyone else offer info? Thank you for the chart I appreciate it.
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Wade



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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the querent be fired? Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
I don't even know what to say - late ascendant says it's too late - the answer is "no."


I think sometimes when we discuss the considerations, we throw out the aphorism without much thought about what it means in the context of the question. as you said, when we get a late ascendant, it typically means that the question is characterized by lateness in some way. most often I find it means that the situation has developed to a point where the situation cannot be easily reversed. that doesn't mean the answer is "no", it just means that there's a sense of idleness surrounding the question, and it provides a clue to the astrologer that the question put forward could be somehow disingenuous or misleading. I can think of one example where someone asked if they should accept the job. I got a late ascendant, asked why that was -- turns out they already did accept the job and things were already in motion that could not be stopped. I can almost hear Lilly in the back of my head, talking about the "silly querent."

in your chart, the late ascendant could have one of many meanings tied to the symbolism of lateness, and as it is your chart, I'm sure you will have an idea of how that fits.

StellarTiggy wrote:
However Saturn is EXACTLY on the Ascendant! Good thing Saturn is in sect, but it is not a trigon for either the ascendant nor the Moon. And thirdly, the Moon applies to Saturn, but Saturn is not the lord of the Ascendant - which indicates a 'no.' All in all I think this horary says "no," but that Saturn right on the Ascendant...Usually a bad sign - but in this case a bad sign for the question of whether the querent will be fired is a good sign.


if I can be honest, I think you're overthinking this. regardless of your views on sect, we don't want to see Saturn on the ascendant, especially retrograde. it signifies damage, loss, difficulty, hardship, burdens. Saturn's role in this chart becomes even more focal when we consider the Moon's application, and although it is by trine it's still a damaging relationship between the two. it's not appropriate thinking to think Saturn angular means "no" -- what it means is that you've got a bummer of an answer here.

I'm equally (if not more) interested in uncovering the condition of combust Mars, on the cusp of the 8th house. we have shifting angles here, suggesting an imminent change, and Mars is four short degrees from entering his sign of fall. what do you make of these? I have thoughts and am happy to contribute but wanted to encourage you to explore them first.
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Last edited by Wade on Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gs53



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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Querent is Mars and Moon, to be fired is 10th house matter, ruler is Mercury.
With Sa rx in 1st house and Moon in 8 house at the very start we have No answer.That confirms lack of applying aspect between rulers.
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StellarTiggy



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Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the querent be fired? Reply with quote

Wade wrote:
I'm equally (if not more) interested in uncovering the condition of combust Mars, on the cusp of the 8th house. we have shifting angles here, suggesting an imminent change, and Mars is four short degrees from entering his sign of fall. what do you make of these? I have thoughts and am happy to contribute but wanted to encourage you to explore them first.


Angles are shifting into a sign ruled by Jupiter (Sag), which indicates something positive occurring. At the same time when Mars goes into his fall this is a negative sign, except when the Moon enters Scorpio (Moon in Aries will result in a square aspect). Initially Mars will be in the 7th in Gemini and then will go into the 8th once more when it goes into Cancer. The combustion indicates being overpowered by some force (querent's superiors). My final response is, querent won't be fired but remain miserable in current situation.

I am ready for your thoughts.
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Wade



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Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the querent be fired? Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
Angles are shifting into a sign ruled by Jupiter (Sag), which indicates something positive occurring.


I'm not sure it works that way, or at least I haven't read anything like that historically. shifting angles means a fundamental change is on the horizon, a shift in circumstances.

StellarTiggy wrote:
At the same time when Mars goes into his fall this is a negative sign, except when the Moon enters Scorpio (Moon in Aries will result in a square aspect).


I'm not sure what you're saying here. are you saying that this is a good thing, to have Mars in Cancer and Moon in Scorpio? in this chart, the Moon is in Cancer -- why the focus on Scorpio?

StellarTiggy wrote:
Initially Mars will be in the 7th in Gemini and then will go into the 8th once more when it goes into Cancer.


Mars is already on the 8th house cusp, and should be considered an 8th house planet.

StellarTiggy wrote:
The combustion indicates being overpowered by some force (querent's superiors).


combustion marks the end of a superior planet's synodic cycle with the Sun. symbolically this is linked to a process of letting go of the past to make way for something in the future. combustion can mean that someone is overpowered; it can also indicate that the querent is so caught up in their own destructive circumstances that they're not in a position to consider the advice you put before them as their astrologer. with Saturn on the 1st cusp and the 1st-ruler on 8th cusp, combust, I think the chart is telling you to be very cautious with the querent as they are in a period of crisis and difficulty.

StellarTiggy wrote:
My final response is, querent won't be fired but remain miserable in current situation.


this is your chart and your conclusion is more important than mine. still, when I consider 1) shifting angles, 2) Moon about to enter a new sign and lose dignity, 3) Mars about to enter a new sign and gain debility, 4) Mars combust, 5) Mars on 8th cusp, 6) Saturn on the 1st house, I have a really hard time thinking that the querent will be able to maintain their job (if that is the focus of the question, and somehow I think it's bigger than that). personally I would be counseling them through what looks like a period of loss and difficulty, and how to make space for the very rough transition period that appears to be on its way.
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StellarTiggy



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Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Will the querent be fired? Reply with quote

Wade wrote:
StellarTiggy wrote:
Angles are shifting into a sign ruled by Jupiter (Sag), which indicates something positive occurring.


I'm not sure it works that way, or at least I haven't read anything like that historically. shifting angles means a fundamental change is on the horizon, a shift in circumstances.

StellarTiggy wrote:
At the same time when Mars goes into his fall this is a negative sign, except when the Moon enters Scorpio (Moon in Aries will result in a square aspect).


I'm not sure what you're saying here. are you saying that this is a good thing, to have Mars in Cancer and Moon in Scorpio? in this chart, the Moon is in Cancer -- why the focus on Scorpio?

StellarTiggy wrote:
Initially Mars will be in the 7th in Gemini and then will go into the 8th once more when it goes into Cancer.


Mars is already on the 8th house cusp, and should be considered an 8th house planet.

StellarTiggy wrote:
The combustion indicates being overpowered by some force (querent's superiors).


combustion marks the end of a superior planet's synodic cycle with the Sun. symbolically this is linked to a process of letting go of the past to make way for something in the future. combustion can mean that someone is overpowered; it can also indicate that the querent is so caught up in their own destructive circumstances that they're not in a position to consider the advice you put before them as their astrologer. with Saturn on the 1st cusp and the 1st-ruler on 8th cusp, combust, I think the chart is telling you to be very cautious with the querent as they are in a period of crisis and difficulty.

StellarTiggy wrote:
My final response is, querent won't be fired but remain miserable in current situation.


this is your chart and your conclusion is more important than mine. still, when I consider 1) shifting angles, 2) Moon about to enter a new sign and lose dignity, 3) Mars about to enter a new sign and gain debility, 4) Mars combust, 5) Mars on 8th cusp, 6) Saturn on the 1st house, I have a really hard time thinking that the querent will be able to maintain their job (if that is the focus of the question, and somehow I think it's bigger than that). personally I would be counseling them through what looks like a period of loss and difficulty, and how to make space for the very rough transition period that appears to be on its way.


I appreciate your response. May I suggest this be the reason, traditionally, we shouldn't be reading a late ascendant horary - perhaps this final outcome is not set in stone (the horary may be misleading). It is a stricture against judgement.
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Wade



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Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the querent be fired? Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
I appreciate your response. May I suggest this be the reason, traditionally, we shouldn't be reading a late ascendant horary - perhaps this final outcome is not set in stone (the horary may be misleading). It is a stricture against judgement.


you won't find the word "stricture" in the ancient texts -- it is a modern theory that has no basis in tradition. a late ascendant is more properly termed a consideration, and the list of considerations number in the hundreds. our job is to explore the querent's question and uncover why there is a late ascendant, and determine what kind of counsel we are still in a position to give.

there is no rule against judging charts -- considerations offer warnings to astrologers to handle certain questions with caution, to be more deliberate in phrasing because the querent may be in very destructive circumstances, or past the Rubicon so to speak (unable to turn back, as if things are in motion that cannot be undone). I don't think it's a reason to discard a chart, but to probe the matter further.

as it happens, late ascendants do give me more pause than most considerations, a lesson I have learned from the experience of those astrologers around me. still, with a question like this ("will I lose the job?", which rests upon the possibility of something ending), I think the late ascendant should not surprise us. in fact, it seems critical to the judgment that there is a late ascendant, as that is indicative of endings, and I would allow it to inform me as I consult with the querent on next steps and processing the event.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I largely agree with everything that Wade wrote.

Apologies I'm only looking at the chart now. Immediately I think that Saturn right on the ascendant, the lord of the ascendant in the 8th and combust and the Moon applying, albeit by trine, to Saturn with the ascendant itself changing signs are all indications that there is change afoot and I do not see this as a horary indicating the preservation of the current situation. Unfortunately I think the querent may well either be let go, or else the querent's job situation will in some other way likewise change.

I do not see the late degree ascendant as indicative that it is too late to ask the question (if I understand you right). Like Wade I do not recognise strictures against judgement but rather I see these things almost like a mental check list of things to be aware of so that they can be fed into your judgement, and they have especial prominence in cases where you may be unsure of the intentions of the querent or if they are asking in good faith.

I consider the late ascendant, much like Wade, as being indicative as being that the matter is already more or less out of the querent's hands anyway, that things are in already in motion and so the querent has little ability to effect the matter one way or another.

StellarTiggy wrote:

Angles are shifting into a sign ruled by Jupiter (Sag), which indicates something positive occurring. At the same time when Mars goes into his fall this is a negative sign, except when the Moon enters Scorpio (Moon in Aries will result in a square aspect). Initially Mars will be in the 7th in Gemini and then will go into the 8th once more when it goes into Cancer. The combustion indicates being overpowered by some force (querent's superiors). My final response is, querent won't be fired but remain miserable in current situation.

I am ready for your thoughts.


StellarTiggy

I couldn't quite follow your thoughts here, you seemed to imply that the angles changing sign so that Jupiter rules the ascendant would be positive but conclude that despite this change, that no changes would occur and the querent, far from something positive, would remain where he/she is and be miserable.

Is this because of Saturn? The combustion? In what sense are you seeing preservation of the current situation? Is it because a fixed sign rises?

I presume when you say Mars in Cancer is a negative sign until Moon enters Scorpio that this is because of mutual reception? But then if you're focusing on the fact that the ascendant changes to Jupiter ruled then is this still relevant?

I'm trying to follow your chain of thought here.


PS
pankajdubey - I have resized the image that you very graciously uploaded as it was breaking out of the normal boundaries for the message board

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pankajdubey



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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul for the resizing of the chart. Looks better.

I wish the querent had asked, "Will my situation change for the better ?"
But we can't force the questions on the querent.

PD
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Wade



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Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
I wish the querent had asked, "Will my situation change for the better ?"
But we can't force the questions on the querent.


but would it have mattered? the wording of the question is insignificant -- what matters is the intent. the querent's circumstances don't change by wording the question differently. we would have resulted in the same chart, because this chart perfectly captures the nature of the dilemma the querent is in.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wade wrote:
pankajdubey wrote:
I wish the querent had asked, "Will my situation change for the better ?"
But we can't force the questions on the querent.


but would it have mattered? the wording of the question is insignificant -- what matters is the intent. the querent's circumstances don't change by wording the question differently. we would have resulted in the same chart, because this chart perfectly captures the nature of the dilemma the querent is in.


I think it could.Most astrologers in one to one consultation ,when seeing a stricture could have asked- is that really your worry ?

Now, consider this, the querent has a fight with No.2 in the organisation and thinks that this action would most logically get her/him fired , but the no.1 in the organisation was actually waiting for this opportunity to set no.2 in his/her place.So the no.1 takes a lenient view of the querent and actually fires the No.2.
This scenario is much better addressed with the question: "Will my situtaion change for the better ?"

So me thinks.

PD
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StellarTiggy



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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

To answer the above question about Jupiter/changing signs/mutual reception - yes. I didn't want to read this chart because in the past I've read charts with strictures against judgment and the result diverted from what the chart said and I felt it wouldn't be accurate. I am not focusing on the mutual reception. I just felt the horary was telling me the querent is in a bad situation and won't be fired despite the bad situation.

About the wording of the question - as others have stated - this chart reflects the situation and if the question had changed so would've the chart. At the moment of the question the querent was approached by leadership to discuss a tense situation. The querent was practically cornered, but also the querent felt they didn't have a chance to express themselves as clearly as they wanted. Part of the question has this "since this has cropped up will I get another chance to clarify with leadership?" Even now the querent has reached out to me to tell me about the stress and asked for advice about whether to approach leadership and request a change.
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Lazarus



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Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit late to this one. In passing accurate judgement it would help to have more details about the querent's actual situation.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned reception. Saturn sits on the Asc but is in the sign of Mars. The Moon and Saturn exhibit negative reception (in one another's debilities). Saturn on the Asc, to me, just represents that the querent probably feels very fearful and limited by the situation. This is also shown by the Moon/Mars in the 8th house and Mars combust. But Saturn is retrograde which means he is slowly but surely backing off and I would look at the sign change of the Asc as also being of a freeing nature. The Sun is also moving away from Mars (rather than Mars moving toward the Sun), and so the negative influence of combustion is waning, not waxing and this creates a very different scenario. Mercury (Boss) and the Moon are conjoined by Antiscion, and this by separation which again within the context means that there is a loosening of the tensions or even fears that exist. The North Node in the 10th also bodes well for the querent's job (and is trine to the Moon by antiscion, and I only mention this because I feel it reinforces this theme). We should also note that the 12th house is Scorpio, showing the querent is his own worst enemy in this situation. This would suggest that much of his fear or sense of limitation (Saturn) is his own doing (because Saturn is in the sign of Mars and therefore subordinate to Mars).

Mercury as the boss is really in no way configured in a negative manner with any of the key significators, nor is it in bad reception with any of those significators, and the Sun, which universally could represent authority or a boss/superior is separating from Mars, while Saturn (another general significator of authority) is backing off from the Asc. Therefore I don't see why the querent should lose his job even if he may remain unhappy in his current circumstances due to the Moon's application to Saturn.

My experience with these kinds of situations is that we need to subordinate what is going on in the chart to the question and thus to the main significators. In this case that is the 1st/L1 and the 10th/L10. Perhaps Saturn shows worries over money (Capricorn intercepted in the 2nd) for example, etc.
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