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Exact time for the inception of a business

 
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mrtinps



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 8

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:35 am    Post subject: Exact time for the inception of a business Reply with quote

Hi,

A friend is setting up his own business and I was wondering if I could plot a chart for its inception, or even elect an auspicious time. Does anybody have any wisdom on what exact moment is to be taken as the inception of a business?

Thanks,

Martin
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a topic that I have been trying to pursue on this forum and you may want to look back at those discussions.

It is best to try an elect a suitable time for 'starting' the business and there are a number of good texts on election astrology - but that brings us to the question, "When does a business actually start?"

Basically, you need a symbolic moment when you can say the business is 'live' and up and running.

For incorporated businesses, it is often taken as noon on the date of incorporation. This is somewhat arbitrary. How can you sensibly do predictions on a noon chart for a business? It is like having to make to with a noon chart for a person. Surely we can do better than that!

For retail businesses, it is often taken as the first time the door is opened to be public. However, opening the door at 2:00am may satisfy the astrology, but how much business are you going to do at two in the morning?

I like the moment it takes its first cash - a business is not a business until it gets it gets its first payment for its services. Indian astrologers seem to be pretty busy with this sort of work and it seems that the accepted method is to get an important and auspicious customer - the more important the better - to come in the door at the timed moment, get served immediately and to pay immediately. That ticks all the boxes for when the business actually starts.
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mrtinps



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Thanks for the thoughts. Interesting about the first customer. Would this not make electing a time to start a business impossible though, as that is not something that the person starting the business has any control over?

The business in question is not retail, it is a service being offered to bring together other businesses to help them to work together in various innovative ways. It will be a public company, so shares can be bought in it.

I asked my friend, who is starting the business in question, when the equivalent of a business being born / drawing its first breath might be and he said this:

"[Registering the business is] done online, and there are various stages from paying for the reg documents, getting approval for the name, etc. But I'd say the commercial equivalent of 'drawing breath' is when its first shareholder has committed money to the company.

From then on the business lives by income/in-breath and expenditure/out-breath until its final long outbreath when all the investors get their payout (hopefully many times larger than their pay-in!), any bankloans / trade creditors are paid off and the company either becomes a PLC or is incorporated into a larger business."

In this case, my friend who is starting the business is likely to be the first shareholder so it is under his control.

Does that sound like a reasonable way to elect a suitable time in this case? Obviously there will be other investors and customers in time (if all goes well) but I can't elect for when that might be.

Thanks again,

Martin
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mrtinps



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, could you provide a link to your previous thread on this topic so I can find it easily?

Thanks,

Martin
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 380
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrtinps wrote:
But I'd say the commercial equivalent of 'drawing breath' is when its first shareholder has committed money to the company.


The taxman would not agree. A business that has not 'traded' is considered moribund by the taxman.

When a shareholder puts money into a business then that is considered an investment and can be thought of in the same class as investing in property or a painting or in stocks and shares in general. That is not the same thing as actually using that invested money to buy equipment/infrastructure/property/stock for the company so that it is in a position to start trading.

No business is a business until it does business. That means trading goods/services with a customer who pays for those goods/services. Until it does business, what you have is just a business model or business concept.
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mrtinps



Joined: 24 Jun 2013
Posts: 8

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

You suggestion seems reasonable in the context of a simple retail scenario. My friend, who is starting a business and has several academic business qualifications, had this to say about the more complex cases:

There's no question, most businesses are not in rude health until they get paying customers. But there are many viable, non-trading businesses such as holding companies.

For those intending to trade, investors put cash into the business, at its founding, and the business keeps some and spends some, while it's building towards its first sale. You can theoretically run a no-sales business indefinitely, if the shareholders keep injecting cash. You can even sell the business in its entirety, at a profit, if someone else values it (e.g. it has some IP or other asset) without ever having made a sale.

I see the thinking time before the company registers as its gestation - it's not in the light of day, and not received any formal financial valuation - and that's when it just a business model or business concept.

I see the first investment is the first breath, when it has a formal value as an independent, tradeable entity.

I see the first sale as important, but too long drawn out for astrological purposes. Is it when someone says "yes I'll buy that" (salesperson's definition)? Or when you send out the invoice (financial accountant's definition)? Or when the cash hits your company accounts (management accountant's definition)? Additionally, it sounds like this definition prevents horary, because you can rarely control the day (let alone the minute) of your first sale.

I don't buy the 'taxman' test. HMRC/IRS etc is only one stakeholder. Others are:

1.Companies House - the UK's registry of living and dead businesses treats every registered entity as living - requiring an annual return and accounts even if no trading has taken place.

2. Users/employees - Recently, there have been many examples of businesses, in tech, which had many customers/users, employees etc before they made sales, e.g. Twitter. Common sense would call these living businesses.

3. Subsidiaries - a holding company is very real and can be sold, in its entirety (including its subsidiaries). It is unlikely to make sales in its own right.

4. Plaintiffs - as soon as it is registered as a legal entity, a company can be sued.

In biz registration (in the UK at least), you must simultaneously register as a legal entity AND quantify the capital you've put into the business. Online, this is formally confirmed with a press of a key.

So yes, interesting thoughts.

My thought is that as in this case it would be impractical to use "first sale" for the reasons above and primarily the fact it cannot be elected as a time. Also, as Benjamin Dykes illuminates in his translations of medieval astrology texts, the idea of using a previous beginning on which a later beginning is based is astrologically valid or at least has deep roots in the tradition of astrology.

Thanks again for your thoughts and I hope you find these helpful,

Martin
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