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Vehlow house system
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:

What I find particularly intriguing is that there are three nakshatras starting at 0° Aries, Leo and Sagittarius, as the Fire Trigon has special significance for organizing the zodiak (as elka and I both concluded in different ways).

What is the ruler of these three nakshatras?

Ketu, Moon's South Node.


Thanks. On which signs and degrees do the nakshatras begin which are ruled by Rahu?
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:


On which signs and degrees do the nakshatras begin which are ruled by Rahu?

Here on my web site is a table of lunar mansions with tropical and sidereal longitudes and the stars or asterisms in each mansion. These will differ somewhat from books on the Indian mansions because some of the stars are not aligned correctly in those books. This is because the ancient nakshatra stars aren't spaced evenly as the 27 mansions are.

http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/amansions.htm

With any equal house system such as Vehlow, the cusps of houses trine to each other will always have the same mansion ruling planet. I plan on looking up references on how these are used, but haven't had time yet.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Tue May 05, 2015 3:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
Therese wrote:
"Of the Fixed Stars and Degrees in Scorpio:
"From the fifth to the seventh degree is the Uranoscopus, i.e. the one looking at the sky

"From the first degree to the fifth the degrees are lucid. They make astrologers [and] astronomers, always having hope in God."

Liber Hermetis 25 (in Liber Hermetis, Part II, translated by Robert Zoller, Golden Hind Press, 1993.

Mark replied:
Thanks Therese. Very interesting. The reference is certainly sidereal if by that you mean fixed stars. However, the reference system these stars are related to i.e. zodiac could have been tropical if you consider the effects of procession.

This is just one of many zodiac tests that could tell us if various influences are somehow linked to the stars or come from another source. Astrologers could be kept busy for centuries with possible research projects.

Quote:
This issue [MC/IC planets] interests me a lot at present. On the one hand I feel Whole sign, Indian Equal or Sripati are more accurate by allowing the 1st house to begin well above the ASC...But what I am really interested in is the Lords of the Equal/WSH 10th vs the MC. I must state in contrast to your chart I have found numerous charts where a planet on the MC is highly descriptive of a person's fate.

It would be helpful to see some examples. I’m not sure what you mean by “fate.”

Quote:
But my experience with charts is that the MC ruler is more often reflective of career/honours things than the ruler of the Equal/WSH 10th. I haven't really got to the bottom of differentiating what the difference is between the two. Pity we work with different zodiacs as I can’t directly utilise findings in sidereal charts. But I do want to open a practically focused thread that examines charts for both rulers in tropical charts.

I don’t see why a comparison study can’t be done of house lords in both zodiacs. Since Jyotish has borrowed in some ways from tropical astrology (not saying that I completely agree with that....), I think the time for a sharp separation between tropical and sidereal is long past. It’s just old, a false segregation. It keeps both sides in the dark. And of course I have borrowed from tropical observations myself. Same traits, different sign name.

But the topic here is Vehlow houses, and it might be interesting to look at a few charts to see if there is evidence if planets on either side of a cusp relate to matters of the house in question.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
But the topic here is Vehlow houses, and it might be interesting to look at a few charts to see if there is evidence if planets on either side of a cusp relate to matters of the house in question.


Yes. Probably best if we all get back to examining Vehlow houses before we wonder off topic too much.

Thanks

Mark
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indian Equal Houses
------------------------
I've just found printed evidence that Indian Equal Houses are alive and well in India. There is an Indian astrologer, S. K. Mehta, whom Sunil John, the editor of Saptarishis On-line Astrology Magazine, says makes amazingly accurate predictions. Sunil John has given some examples of these predictions in past magazines.

Mehta has a series of three books on his teachings and techniques. In New Dimensions in Hindu Astrology (Prakash Books, 2004) in a discussion of houses he says "to the best of experience and knowledge of the writer, each house should be taken exactly as 30 degrees." (p. 80)

Then on page 82 following the illustrated circular chart he says "[The] ascendant is the center of house 1." Perhaps to counteract the use of whole sign houses by his students, Mehta goes to great lengths (half a page) to meticulously explain how to calculate houses that place the cusps at the centers.

Mehta also says that if the cusps fall near the centers of zodiac signs, one can use the traditional Indian square chart, but if the ascendant falls close to sign boundaries, especially within five degrees, then the circular chart must be used. I see this as a beneficial transfer of a western idea to India. It's rather strange that western Jyotish practitioners don't suggest the use of the circular chart, and also that the majority of them seem to advocate whole sign houses.

Mark wrote earlier:
Quote:
Vehlow does quote an English astrologer called EH Bailey who had written two articles in the ''British Journal of Astrology" from 1928 who advocated equal houses with central cusps. Bailey himself does attribute the idea to 'Hindu astrology' and quotes the astrological text of Sripati. At present he appears to be the first astrologer to propose this system in writing.

At present my vote goes to India as the birth place of this house system. My conclusion is that the most accurate name for this system is simply "Indian Equal House." (As Raman and Rohiniranjan termed it.) The system doesn't really belong either to B. V. Raman or Vehlow, both now departed from the earth. It's simply a system that has been kept alive in common use by India's astrologers.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed May 06, 2015 6:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese 8:38pm post... that reminds me of what i was using before i forgot why i was using it, lol... you tell someone equal house system and they still can't get their head around the idea of the ascendant being like the crest of a wave.. breaking astrologers of the idea that houses are boxes to put stuff in is hard to do.. everyone seems to like the houses as boxes idea.. thanks for sharing this and reminding me of how i used to look at houses prior to finding out about whole sign houses...

i do like the connection with planets in the same sign as the ascendant as being in the ascendant. it gets tricky with late or early degrees of a sign rising as then one is thrown back into ignoring the aspects completely and going with a complete emphasis on the sign..

this is ot, but how does sidereal adopt 30 degree segments when the signs are not 30 degrees using sidereal signs? maybe someone can answer it privately to me or in a separate thread.. i can't figure that out.. if one goes with 360 degree circles and 12 signs - i don't get it sidereally..
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Mark
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton:
Quote:
At present my vote goes to India as the birth place of this house system.


My heart is with you Therese but my head needs more! As the old Russian proverb says 'trust but verify'.

I have discovered there is a B.V. Raman Association and I intend to write to them. However, if you stumble of any of those books you mentioned by B.V. Raman's grandfather do let me know what you find out!

I do wonder if B.V. Raman exclusively used this house system? I found this piece by Robert Hand mentioning that his first experience of whole sign houses was from a lecture by B.V. Raman. This quote comes from a much longer post by Robert Hand on Facebook on whole sign houses:

Quote:
In the early 1970's I attended a workshop at the New York Astrology Center given by the late Hindu astrologer, B.V. Raman. He began presenting his charts and immediately we got first our first surprise. The charts were of course sidereal; that was no surprise. The surprise was the house system! His chart consisted of twelve squares or rectangles arranged in a larger square or rectangle (the South Indian form). [The form is posted at the end of this column.] In this South Indian form the houses are given as signs (rashis) which are always arranged as above, The sign rising is then marked either with a line in one of the corners or a diagonal line going from the lower left to the upper right of the square or rectangle representing the rising sign. The midheaven is not given. Also note that the signs are listed clockwise rather than the more familiar counterclockwise. However, the form was not so much the surprise as the fact that the houses each consisted of an entire sign and only one sign, and in fact the houses coincided with the signs, except that as houses they are counted from the rising sign. We dubbed this the “Whole-Sign House System.” I remember turning to a friend and saying “I wonder if this is what Ptolemy was actually doing.” By that time I had enough familiarity with Ptolemy to realize that he did not seem to be using either Placidus, as Placidus thought, or Equal Houses as most others thought.


Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
My conclusion is that the most accurate name for this system is simply "Indian Equal House." (As Raman and Rohiniranjan termed it.) The system doesn't really belong either to B. V. Raman or Vehlow, both now departed from the earth. It's simply a system that has been kept alive in common use by India's astrologers.


If we can verify an Indian source before either Vehlow or Bailey I think that is logical on the basis that the oldest source should determine the name. Although looking at the naming of house systems they are more often than not historicaly inaccurate anyway! Placidus didn't 'discover' Placidus houses first and the same could be said of systems named after Campanus, Regiomontanus, Porphyry etc.

It would take something of a paradigm shift to move from ''Vehlow'' to ''Indian Equal houses''. I thought Vehlow-Raman or Raman-Vehlow was at least a recognition of the Indian role here and highlighted the two most famous practitoners of this one approach bringing together eastern and western astrology.

Moreover, I suppose my slight concern with your suggestion is that a lot of western astrologers switch off when they hear the term 'Indian' as they assume it is something culturally specific to Indian astrology. By bringing Vehlow's name into it we highlight the European antecedent of this approach too. The fact that Vehlow probably worked out this approach from first principles rather than derivative sources surely adds to the interest in this system?

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue May 05, 2015 10:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James-M wrote:
Quote:
...but how does sidereal adopt 30 degree segments when the signs are not 30 degrees using sidereal signs? maybe someone can answer it privately to me or in a separate thread.. i can't figure that out.. if one goes with 360 degree circles and 12 signs - i don't get it sidereally..

Sidereal signs are always exactly 30 degrees in length just like tropical signs. Although the sidereal signs remain roughly aligned with the constellations, the relationship isn't exact. The 30 degree twelve sign zodiac isn't the same as the 12 constellations in the sky. They are separate entities. The advantage of working with the stars in the sidereal zodiac is that they always remain in the same longitude. So the astrologer can memorize the positions of the primary stars and doesn't have to compute them for every chart.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, all the Indian chart forms have one square or diamond shape as one sign. That's why they are a clumsy way to show houses that are measured in any way except whole sign houses. So it gets very confusing as different degrees have to be marked in the sign squares. As it is with these sign charts, often two charts are printed side-by-side. The sign chart, and then another "bhava" chart with planets in houses. This is probably why I'm seeing more circular charts in Indian books and articles.

I should check Raman's books to see if it's obvious that sometimes he uses whole sign houses.

Quote:
It would take something of a paradigm shift to move from ''Vehlow'' to ''Indian Equal houses''. I thought Vehlow-Raman or Raman-Vehlow was at least a recognition of the Indian role here and highlighted the two most famous practitoners of this one approach bringing together eastern and western astrology.

I see your point in using Raman-Vehlow or Vehlow-Raman for the Indian Equal House system. It's more specific since "equal house" has a different meaning for western astrologers, 30 degree houses that begin at the cusps.

Quote:
I have discovered there is a B.V. Raman Association and I intend to write to them.

Good idea! With the Internet, you should get a fast reply. One of Raman's sons has an on-line astrological magazine. There was some kind of split in the family because Raman's daughter was (is currently?) publishing a print edition of a magazine, and his son was publishing an online magazine. Perhaps by now they have joined forces again?? The son's name is Niranjan Babu Bangalore. He has a twitter account. Contact information is below. We look forward to his response if you write to him.

Email: info@astrologicalmagazine.com
Phone: +91-80-23366864
Chief Editor - Niranjan Babu Bangalore -
info@niranjanbabu.com

Magazine web site: http://www.astrologicalmagazine.com/
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astrocorreia



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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I have had interest in this system for a couple of years now. I have been unsatisfied with quadrant systems for much longer than that. Not least due to the problem of latitude on quadrant houses. Living in Scotland I see many natal examples of Placidus houses with the classic large or shrunken houses. While i understand the astronomical reason for this I find it unsatisying.

I use whole sign houses and get results which I am quite happy with. I accept I am biased but I consistently see whole sign houses producing more reliable delineation of natal issues. However, in whole sign there is the issue of charts with very late ascending degrees. I tend to examine those in equal too. But in many ways I find the Vehlow-Raman system more appealing.

On reading Vehlow I found myself rather supporting his full on criticism of placidus houses!

Symbolically, I really like the idea of associating the houses with the rising Sun (rather than the unequal ascensional rising times of signs). While rising times may vary the transiting Sun can be approximated into 30 degrees. Its traditional orb was 30 degrees with an orb 15 degrees before and behind it. This fits the Vehlow houses.

The early meaning of many of the houses can also be symbolically related to solar mysticism and the diurnal Sun starting at the ASC and moving clockwise through the houses.

Another argument I like for this house system is that it helps to explain the so called Gauguelin effect. Its true medieval astrology (following Ptolemy) allowed a 5 degree orb before a cusp. So the house effectively started 5 degrees before the cusp. But this frequently fails to explain the large number of prominent people with clusters of planets in quadrant or equal sign 12th house houses.

The ASC is after all a power point in the chart. The idea you often find in modern astrology that anything above the ASC degree is by definition automatically weak seems nonsensical to me.

Looking at Babylonian astrology planets rising in the sky were often seen as at their most powerful. Cutting off a house at the ASC degree loses that visual astrology dimension. Influence around the ASC doesn't stop immediately. Its more like a light that gradually fades out.

As I see it only house systems that frequently start the 1st house above the ASC can deal with this.

Excluding the so callled clockwise house system that counts the 12th as the first , 11th as second etc we only have 3 conventional house systems that really address this paradox:

Whole sign
Sripati
Vehlow-Raman

Of course one could be more radical and reject houses altogether but I am trying to stay within the confines of fairly orthodox astrology.

Very often what other astrologers see as 12th house planets I see in reverse as 1st house with whole sign. I can think of several natal delineations where this has proved more relaible.

While I intend to stick with whole signs I think Vehlow is a good system to measure planetary strength with. Although advocates of quadrant systems will inevitably argue it loses the centrality of the MC for the 10th. That of course is a point that also applies to whole sign and equal.

If you prefer quadrant houses you could use Sripati houses. These are a variant of Porphyry houses where the cusps are placeed at the centre of houses not the beginning/ end. This is a popular system in India today.

Lets look at a practical example. Below is the opening of poll chart for the UK General election next week. It can be seen as a kind of contest chart with the incumbents/status quo indicated by ASC and challenger(change) indicated by the DESC. The chart is displayed in Placidus houses.



If one uses Vehlow-Raman ,Whole sign or Sripati houses this Mercury is strong in the first house. Its not as powerful as it could be since it is over 10 degrees from the ASC. Still it is the domicile ruler in its own sign in the first house. A powerful indicator for the incumbent. Although a square to Neptune indicates confusion over the outcome.

But if you use a quadrant house system like Placidus, Alcabitius, Porphyry, Regiomontanus etc (or Equal) the ASC ruler Mercury is weak as it falls in the 12th house. Which is it?

This seems like a good test of the competing house systems!

If David Cameron loses next week I may need to return to the drawing board...

Mark


Looks like Sripati or WS were correct. As i said,I never thought the english would vote for Miliband.He looks weak,and in spite of their love of the underdog,voting on him might be suicidal

I have the Sun at 18 capricorn,like the conservative party´s AC. That may explain why I had a better time there under Thatcher than under Blair,though I didnt like her. Strange as it may sound,Cameron is regarded as the most reliable european poltician by the German volk
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Mark
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrocorreia wrote:
Quote:
Looks like Sripati or WS were correct.


I have now collected a large number of charts with planets in the WS/Vehlow 1st and otherwise 12th. The two systems frequently coincide on house placement. However, in the cases where they dont ie a planet is in a different sign above the horizon but still in Vehlow 1st it seems to me at least that the WS houses meaning fit the nativity better. I will put links up from astrodatabank later for people to judge for themselves.


astrocorreia wrote:
Quote:
I have the Sun at 18 capricorn,like the conservative party´s AC. That may explain why I had a better time there under Thatcher than under Blair,though I didnt like her.


You obviously saw me display that chart for the Conservative party in the mundane forum on the UK election. However, you missed my comment that the chart is untimed. It is unlikely the chart is actually Capricorn rising as that meeting would in all likelyhood have began well before noon in the morning. A Scorpio ASC is quite possible.
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astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
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Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark
Yes I overlooked that. Thanks for your research with ADB
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