skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Vehlow house system
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1343
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, James. Long page!! No wonder I couldn't find it.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1343
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are at least two places in Dorotheus where a 15 degree orb from cusps is mentioned. This mention may be a precursor to the concept of cusps as the centers of equal houses. The first reference is in Book 1:7 on the upbringing of natives:

A chapter. The upbringing of natives...
Now I will tell you the matter of natives, and for whom there will be a good upbringing and for whom an upbringing will not be known. This is known from what I wrote for you without trouble and without pain. Look concerning this at the seven places [about] which I informed you that they are the strongest of them - the four cardines, the triplicity of the ascendent, and the eleventh place. If the nativity is diurnal and you find diurnal planets in one of these places, he will be brought up. If the nativity is nocturnal and nocturnal planets are in one of these places, it indicates similarly concerning the matter of upbringing. If a benefic is in one of these places, it is beneficial. If you find a planet [such that there are] fifteen degrees between it and the ascendent, then, even if it is in the second sign from the ascendent, reckon its power as if it were in the ascendent. But if it goes beyond this, it has no strength in the ascendent and it is an indication of those who will have no upbringing.

The second reference is in Book 1:26:

A chapter. The magnitude of fortune and property.
Now I will show you the magnitude of fortune and property. Look at the lord of the triplicity of the sign in which is the shining luminary. If you find it in one of these four cardines in [such a way] that there are fifteen degrees [or less] between it and the cardine, then predict about him that he will be most perfect in fortune and property. If it is in the second fifteen degrees, then predict concerning him the second fortune, which is what is available of what I told you in the beginning, as the nearer it is to the degree of the cardine, the higher it is for his rank in eminence and fortune. If that planet which is the lord of the triplicity of the shining [luminary] is in the third fifteen degrees, then the owner of this nativity will not be known, but according to this he will be middling in property and fortune.
-----------end Dorotheus quotes-------------

From a personal viewpoint, I'd rather the equal house system under discussion be called "Raman-Vehlow" rather than "Vehlow-Raman." This is because what is known as the Raman system has been commonly used for many decades in India. I think maybe it was Mark who first drew our attention to the same house system used by Vehlow. B.V. Raman has been the most popular champion of the astrology of his country whereas Vehlow was more of a singleton astrologer whom we have only recently learned about.

However, it's fascinating that these two men settled upon the same house system in their work as the most accurate. Taking the clue from Raman, I've used this system in my work since the 1970s When I first began to study India's astrology, Raman's books were the only texts readily available in the United States at that time except for Robert DeLuce's Constellational Astrology. DeLuce preferred the Sripati house system.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun May 03, 2015 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 518
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Actually, I thought I was the first person to coin the term Vehlow-Raman or Raman-Vehlow house system but maybe not!


I most likely learned this term from you then and stored it anonymously in my internal astro glossary.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 518
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
From my admitedly crude reading of Vehlow thanks to google translate and some basic High school German I thought he especially emphasized the solar connection and the 15 degree orb of the sun either side of the ASC. He also mentions Egyptian solar mysticism somewhere too I think.


If we want to think of house cusps as aspects to the ASC, then the Vehlow concept is the most intuitive one.

Quote:
Since Vehlow's time there has been lots of research into early house systems. While the question is by no means resolved a lot of astrologers seem to think whole sign houses was the likeliest candidate as the earliest template for all later house systems. Advocates of this view include Robert Hand, Robert Schmidt, Ben Dykes, Chris Brennan etc.


For a long time, many astrologers took for granted that Equal Houses was the one and only system used by ancient astrologers. Of course we now know this to be incorrect. Now WHS is in vogue in traditional astrology. It will be interesting to see the next turn of the wheel (no pun intended).

Quote:
However, there does seem some evidence of early use of both Porphyry and Equal houses too. So the reality may have been more complex. Deborah Houlding researched some interesting evidence from Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) which seemed to show he may have used all three systems. The logic of an equal house sector 30 degree from the ASC also seems to be expressed by Dorotheus (1st century CE). He stated the influence of the ASC extended 30 degrees from the ASC zodiacally. Nevertheless, I haven’t seen any support for the idea that Vehlow’s system was around in ancient astrology.

In addition I am not aware that the Thema Mundi assumes the ASC must fall in the middle of Cancer. I think it is actually all the planets that fall at 15 degress in the Thema Mundi. At least according to the Roman astrologer Firmicus Maternus. Its usually presented in a whole sign manner. I would be interested what sources Vehlow looked at that seemed to suggest this.


Vehlow may have been led astray by relatively modern illustrations that didn't take WHS into account (hardly known at his time).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
There are at least two places in Dorotheus where a 15 degree orb from cusps is mentioned. This mention may be a precursor to the concept of cusps as the centers of equal houses. The first reference is in Book 1:7 on the upbringing of natives.


Thanks very for digging those quotes up Therese! I was aware Dorotheus talks about the influence of the ASC extending well beyond the ASC as I had read Ben Dykes bringing this up. But I didn't follow the reference up and was sure he had referred to the influence extending 30 degrees from the ASC. I better go back and look at his book to see if he is referring to the same section as you. It sounds like it.

Dykes suggests this was an alternative system of assessing planetary strength to the early use of Porphyry. It clearly not a house system as Dorotheus talks about this influence extending to the 2nd house (whole sign?)

Its not quite the same as the Raman-Vehlow system though as Dorotheus only seems to see the influence extending zodiacally from the ASC and not diurnally.

Still, as someone that likes a traditional basis for my techniques I find this a useful steer in encouraging me to explore Raman-Vehlow houses further. Although for now I am thinking of it more as a planetary strength tool to back up whole sign houses.

Therese wrote:
Quote:
From a personal viewpoint, I'd rather the equal house system under discussion be called "Raman-Vehlow" rather than "Vehlow-Raman." This is because what is known as the Raman system has been commonly used for many decades in India. I think maybe it was Mark who first drew our attention to the same house system used by Vehlow. B.V. Raman has been the most popular champion of the astrology of his country whereas Vehlow was more of a singleton astrologer whom we have only recently learned about.


I have tended to alternate the terms depending on context. Most western astrologers know this as the Vehlow system while in India today its often attributed to B.V.Raman. Although I have seen at least one Indian astrologer suggest the system is much older. When I researched this topic a couple of years ago I couldn't find any hard evidence to support your assertion that Raman was using the system first. In terms of written sources at least the conclusion one would likely take is that both EH Bailey and Vehlow were probably using the system before B.V.Raman. Although, as I acknowledge later here that doesn't mean your necessarily wrong about the age of this system in India. Its simply that old chestnut of finding the hard evidence...

To recap some information from my thread on the Indian forum I will quote myself here!

The earliest reference to the system in writing I have seen is not either from either Vehlow or Raman but a British astrologer which Vehlow acknowledges in his book:

Quote:
Vehlow does quote an English astrologer called EH Bailey who had written two articles in the ''British Journal of Astrology" from 1928 who advocated equal houses with central cusps. Bailey himself does attribute the idea to 'Hindu astrology' and quotes the astrological text of Sripati. At present he appears to be the first astrologer to propose this system in writing.


The important point here is that Sripati houses are not equal but a variation on what we know in western astrology as Porphyry with the cusps in the centre rather than beginning of houses. So it seems EH Bailey may have improvised this variation of equal houses based on the inspiration from Sripati houses he read about in an Indian astrological text. As I said in the older thread:

Quote:
Moreover, E.H. Bailey had previously collaborated with Alan Leo who advocated an Equal House variant with the ASC as the 1st house cusp from the turn of the century. So it wouldn't have been an immense leap for E.H. Bailey to have developed the idea quite independently of B.V. Raman.


Bailey seems to suggest he had used this variant on equal houses for several years. This means Bailey was probably using the system before B.V Raman even took up astrology.

Nb: B.V. Raman was only born in 1912!

What about Vehlow's first use of this system?

Quote:
The issue remains when did Johannes Vehlow first propose the system that carries his name in the west? Vehlow wrote a piece specifically on this house system in 1931 entitled , Das Häuserproblem in der Astrologie (AsBl, 13.Jhg., Hefte 6, 8-9) (The House Problem in Astrology (ASBL, 13.Jhg., Notebooks 6, 8-9)

He also wrote earlier astrological works on the German Republic (1922) and President Paul Von Hindenburg (1925). I dont know if Vehlow was using the middle cusp Equal House system as early as this or not. I have contacted the Vehlow Society in Germany to try to track down his earliest mention of this system.


Sadly, I never got a response from the Vehlow Society in Germany on this. However, now we have people who can read Vehlow's works in German here perhaps we can track down his first reference to the system in writing? In particular Vehlow's articles before he published Das Häuserproblem in der Astrologie Das Häuserproblem in der Astrologie in 1931.

However, I think your point Therese is not that B.V. Raman first used the system but was rather that he is the most famous representative of a much older Indian astrological house system? Is that a fair synopsis of why you propose to call the system Raman-Vehlow rather than the other way around?

Although my research was by no means exhaustive I did find one modern Indian astrologer appearing to support the antquity of this system. Another quote from my thread:

Quote:
I have been reading the book ‘Predictive Astrology of The Hindus’ by Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha. The copy I possess is a reprint of the 1972 first edition. One thing thing I like about this author is that he frequently cites a traditional text for where he derives a technique. Something you don’t see in most of the popular ‘Vedic astrology’ books today!

In chapter 7 Ojha discusses the astrological houses. He spends a few pages discussing house systems. He mentions the well known whole sign or rasi system. He also discusses the Porphyry house system but states this is not authentically Indian in origin. Although one could argue the same for whole sign houses! He does though acknowledge a variation of the Porphyry system with centralised cusps which is mentioned in the paddhati by Sripati.

Intriguingly though Ojha comes out in support of the Vehlow-Raman system on the grounds of both its efficacy and its antiquity within India.

Oijha states:
Quote:
'But as we consider the equal house division more scientific and the older Hindu method we are using it in this book.’


Unfortunately, we hit a total dead end in trying to find any evidence to support such statements in Indian astrological texts. Martin Gansten the moderator on the Indian forum and an authority on Indian astrological texts concluded there was no firm evidence to support the idea of Ojha that this system of was old and dated from antiquity. Martin has emphasized the traditional importance of whole sign houses in India and from the medieval period the Sripati system.

I am open to the possibility this system is much much older than we realise. I just await some hard evidence to confirm it!

Its possible at the very least that B.V. Raman learned this system from his grandfather who was also an astrologer. So that would place the system in that family back to the 19th century.

A more sceptical view could be that astrologers have been so influenced by B.V. Raman in India they associate any of his ideas with antquity. B.V.was an immensely influential Indian astrologer. Indeed he was arguably the most well known Indian astrologer in the 20th century. And India has a strong tradition of venerating the past. Astrological ideas are usually assumed to be ancient when sometimes the evidence indicates otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangalore_Venkata_Raman

I am trying not to close down any line of enquiry here. So I invite astrologers to send me any information they have either here or by PM . If you find evidence Vehlow was using his system in the early 1920s do let me know. For example what house system was Vehlow using in his article on President Paul Von Hindenburg in 1922?

Equally, if you find any Indian astrological text supporting the use of the 'Raman system' before the work of EH Bailey or Vehlow appeared in writing do let me know!

Thanks

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1343
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
Still, as someone that likes a traditional basis for my techniques I find this a useful steer in encouraging me to explore Raman-Vehlow houses further. Although for now I am thinking of it more as a planetary strength tool to back up whole sign houses.

Mark, reading through all you wrote here, I don’t think we’ll ever have an answer as to who used the Raman-Vehlow house system first. It’s more interesting that it appeared in print around the same time from different sources. Astrology and invention are like that. A particular idea suddenly attracts our notice as brought to the surface by different people who may even live in different parts of the world. I suspect many inventions have followed this pattern.

In India this house system may have evolved over time in the personal practice of individual astrologers. Prior to B.V. Raman and his grandfather’s published books, much astrological knowledge was kept within families and transmitted orally. There are probably many thousands of useful astrological tidbits that are lost to us due to these practices. And terminology changes as well. We’ve just now changed “Indian Equal House” to Raman-Vehlow or Vehlow-Raman!

This house system is really a map of aspects to the angles. Every cadent or succedent house forms a trine aspect to an angular cusp or cardine. This is why houses that are trine to one another reflect some similar ideas as Morin and others have pointed out. So planets close to cusps in every house have the opportunity to be expressed externally due to this relationship to cardines. (Also the 27 lunar mansions tie into the cuspal trine idea.)

In India a modern system has been developed by V.K. Choudhry, Systems Approach. In this system the greatest importance is placed on planets in the ascendant degree in all 12 houses. Choudhry writes: “The rising degree in the ascendant is known as the most effective point (MEP) in all the houses...Any planet conjunct within 5 degrees in that house would be influencing the significations of the house in question in a pronounced manner depending on the functional nature of that planet...” (Systems Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes, p. 14)

In my own work I’ve always considered that any planet close to an equal cusp (on either side of the cusp) will in some way play a prominent role in a person’s life. This places the M.C. in another perspective as it often doesn’t appear near the zenith or 10th house cusp in an equal house system measured from the ascendant.

Quote:
However, I think your point Therese is not that B.V. Raman first used the system but was rather that he is the most famous representative of a much older Indian astrological house system? Is that a fair synopsis of why you propose to call the system Raman-Vehlow rather than the other way around?

Yes, that’s the reason, plus as Rohiniranjan was quoted on the other thread as saying: from the time she first studied astrology in India 40 years ago, she can never remember when that house system wasn’t used. So at least among some Indian astrologers, it’s in common use today. I don’t think Raman invented the system, as he said it was only one of the house systems he tested.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I look at sunsrise in my Stellarium software it makes a lot of sense to start 1st house about an hour before the Sun rises,and of course the cusp or sunrise is the strongest point.

Just my gut feeling

The only way is to look at charts of famous people,but I haven`t got a software that switches celebrity charts from placidus to Vehlow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1343
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrocorreia wrote:
The only way is to look at charts of famous people,but I haven`t got a software that switches celebrity charts from placidus to Vehlow

All you need for Vehlow is to set your charts up as equal house, and visualize house lines as the centers of houses. That works very well as you can see which planets are near the lines, and thus important in the chart. I often make a small mark 15 degrees from the ascendant and write the degree by the mark to remind me where each house ends and the next begins. These "between house degrees" are weak for planets.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3311
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
astrocorreia wrote:
The only way is to look at charts of famous people,but I haven`t got a software that switches celebrity charts from placidus to Vehlow


All you need for Vehlow is to set your charts up as equal house, and visualize house lines as the centers of houses. .


i agree therese... since i have worked with astro software and selected the equal house option, i continue to use my imagination to know what whole sign houses reveals, and one can do it the same for this.. funny thing about the imagination how it can do these sorts of things!! but then software is always trying to catch up.. i like that too!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
Mark, reading through all you wrote here, I don’t think we’ll ever have an answer as to who used the Raman-Vehlow house system first.


You may be right Therese but that will not stop me digging away to find more out on this. I guess its my Moon in Scorpio (tropical and sidereal!)

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
It’s more interesting that it appeared in print around the same time from different sources. Astrology and invention are like that. A particular idea suddenly attracts our notice as brought to the surface by different people who may even live in different parts of the world. I suspect many inventions have followed this pattern.


Very true Therese. In seems ideas are often out there in the ether and seem to emerge simultaneously in the material world. In some cases one can argue for a possible direct influence but in others its much less clear. E.H. Bailey does seem to have been influenced by an Indian approach to mid-house cusps. However, to date the evidence seems to be that Vehlow stumbled on the idea quite independently due to his own unique rationale.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
In India this house system may have evolved over time in the personal practice of individual astrologers. Prior to B.V. Raman and his grandfather’s published books, much astrological knowledge was kept within families and transmitted orally. There are probably many thousands of useful astrological tidbits that are lost to us due to these practices. And terminology changes as well. We’ve just now changed “Indian Equal House” to Raman-Vehlow or Vehlow-Raman!


I am sure you are right on all that. But for the historical researcher this can be frustrating as information on techniques is not preserved for posterity in writing. This seems to be a particular problem for students of Indian astrology.

Regarding the term ''Indian Equal House'' have you seen it described by that term by older Indian astrologers?

Quote:
This house system is really a map of aspects to the angles. Every cadent or succedent house forms a trine aspect to an angular cusp or cardine. This is why houses that are trine to one another reflect some similar ideas as Morin and others have pointed out. So planets close to cusps in every house have the opportunity to be expressed externally due to this relationship to cardines. (Also the 27 lunar mansions tie into the cuspal trine idea.)


Not quite with you on the last point on the Nakshatras. Could you elaborate please?

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
In India a modern system has been developed by V.K. Choudhry, Systems Approach. In this system the greatest importance is placed on planets in the ascendant degree in all 12 houses. Choudhry writes: “The rising degree in the ascendant is known as the most effective point (MEP) in all the houses...Any planet conjunct within 5 degrees in that house would be influencing the significations of the house in question in a pronounced manner depending on the functional nature of that planet...” (Systems Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes, p. 14)


Thanks for that reference.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
In my own work I’ve always considered that any planet close to an equal cusp (on either side of the cusp) will in some way play a prominent role in a person’s life. This places the M.C. in another perspective as it often doesn’t appear near the zenith or 10th house cusp in an equal house system measured from the ascendant.


I am always extremely interested to hear how astrologers using Whole sign, Equal, or Vehlow-Raman houses delineate the MC-IC compared to the Equal 10th/4th. What is your approach?

Mark wrote:
Quote:
However, I think your point Therese is not that B.V. Raman first used the system but was rather that he is the most famous representative of a much older Indian astrological house system? Is that a fair synopsis of why you propose to call the system Raman-Vehlow rather than the other way around?


Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
Yes, that’s the reason, plus as Rohiniranjan was quoted on the other thread as saying: from the time she first studied astrology in India 40 years ago, she can never remember when that house system wasn’t used. So at least among some Indian astrologers, it’s in common use today. I don’t think Raman invented the system, as he said it was only one of the house systems he tested.


How old is Rohiniranjan? She is referring to what the 1970s? I must admit despite Raman's popularity it seems unlikely this house system could have spread across India so quickly from just the early 20th century. Especially, considering the conservative nature of Indian astrology compared to the west.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1343
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
You may be right Therese but that will not stop me digging away to find more out on this. I guess its my Moon in Scorpio (tropical and sidereal!)

Then your Moon is near the end of tropical Scorpio where my Mercury is. This is definitely an astrological area of the zodiac. Many astrologers will have key planets in that area. I think I remember that Liz Green’s ascendant is there. You’ll be interested in these quotes from Liber Hermetis (sidereal since these LH notes often include reference to stars):

"Of the Fixed Stars and Degrees in Scorpio
"From the fifth to the seventh degree is the Uranoscopus, i.e. the one looking at the sky

"From the first degree to the fifth the degrees are lucid. They make astrologers [and] astronomers, always having hope in God."

Liber Hermetis 25 (in Liber Hermetis, Part II, translated by Robert Zoller, Golden Hind Press, 1993.

Quote:
E.H. Bailey does seem to have been influenced by an Indian approach to mid-house cusps. However, to date the evidence seems to be that Vehlow stumbled on the idea quite independently due to his own unique rationale.

When more than one person comes up with the same observation or idea, that adds validity to the concept. I do think that ideas appear “in the ether” so to speak, and as occult sources would say, they are actually placed there from astral sources because their time has come.

Quote:
Regarding the term ''Indian Equal House'' have you seen it described by that term by older Indian astrologers?

I learned that term from Raman’s books. Rohiniranjan said that is the term used in India for that house system. I’ll quote here from Raman’s Manual of Hindu Astrology (revised 1972) for those who might be interested in what he said:

“In India there are two schools of thought bearing on the question of house-division. According to one view, shared by a majority of people not only in Indian but also in Europe and America [not true, but this might indicate that Raman had seen Bailey’s articles], the length of each Bhava [house] will be 30 degrees–the influence extending 15 degrees on either side of the ascendant degree (equal house system).

"According to the other view, this system is unscientific because it ignores the relationship between the ecliptic and equator which should be considered for determining the dimensions of the Bhavas...In our own humble experience extending for nearly 35 years, the equal house system appears to be yielding more satisfactory results.”(p. 96)

I do have several of Raman’s grandfather’s books. I’ve never carefully read them, so don’t know if house systems are mentioned in those books.

Quote:
Not quite with you on the last point on the Nakshatras. Could you elaborate please?

I meant that equal house cusps in trine to each other will have nakshatras on the cusp with the same ruling planet. Some Indian astrologers are now giving emphasis to nakshatras in trine to each other, rather like they’re a unit. (I might post something on this later as their view increases the importance of the trine aspect over squares and oppositions.)

Quote:
I am always extremely interested to hear how astrologers using Whole sign, Equal, or Vehlow-Raman houses delineate the MC-IC compared to the Equal 10th/4th. What is your approach?

That’s a good question, actually. I discount whole sign houses except for special yogas. With equal house, of course, the 90 degree point from the ascendant marks the cusps of the 10th and 4th houses. I’ve noted that the MC-IC axis responds to transits for events. This axis might show up in quadrant division for certain professions or other factual information. (I have some research on this, but can’t look it up at the moment.)

I haven’t been able to find any particular external patterns for planets near the MC/IC axis as such. That means they would only be visible if we're familiar with a person's psychology. So for the moment, I’ll say these points respond to transits. (The Gauquelin statistical research is quite valid in my opinion, but for individual cases the patterns often are not obvious.)

I can give an example in my own chart. I have Neptune-Venus at the zenith. I have a degree in art, and taught art in the schools. I was a painter. I have two psychology degrees, but my real career is astrology. Both of these topics come under Neptune. I have Mars in the Gauquelin plus zone (diurnal 9th house). I can’t stand violence, rough sports, loud sounds or today’s popular music beat, am totally un-athletic, can’t drive a car or ride a bike.

My Mars is in sidereal Virgo in mutual reception with Mercury in Scorpio. I can lay floor tile and design kitchens and room layouts and use carpentry measuring tools. Mars seems to operate when I write. I’m very direct and don’t like fuzzy thinking. Because of that I seem to attract more than my share of argument from others. But this happens mainly in writing as here on this forum. I think others (especially men) don't like the way I sound sure of my views. I don't sound traditionally feminine when I write.

So the sign of Virgo (Mercury's domicile and exaltation) seems to describe Mars talents and thinking. (Mars is in tropical Libra.) Re transits: One transit I remember to my MC brought dental surgery. So Venus-Neptune describes what I've actually done in life. Mars at the MC (influenced by Mercury) seems to describe my direct approach to life, always wanting to dig deeper for answers to questions and explore new ideas.

In summary I’d say that the MC/IC may be important in research for dividing quadrants and as a transit marker. But for marking the 10th house and what it is supposed to represent: not in my experience.

Quote:
How old is Rohiniranjan? She is referring to what the 1970s? I must admit despite Raman's popularity it seems unlikely this house system could have spread across India so quickly from just the early 20th century. Especially, considering the conservative nature of Indian astrology compared to the west.

I don’t know Rohini’s age, only that she’s a mature Indian woman. I think she simply meant that it was one of the commonly used Indian house systems. If we know when the Sripati system was first used in India, that may date the time when equal cusps were also placed at the centers of houses by some astrologers. But I can’t say for sure, as all we have at present is mention of the equal house system in Raman’s books. Perhaps it is mentioned in older books in my library. I might look into that sometime. I collect books to use for reference in writing and research, but don't read through all of them.

Therese
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Quote:
If we want to think of house cusps as aspects to the ASC, then the Vehlow concept is the most intuitive one.


Yes. And the relationship of houses to the ASC seems to have been a major factor in assigning meaning to the houses. Hence those houses in aversion (semi-sextile or quincunx) to the ASC sign (2nd, 6th, 8th, and 12th) were seen as difficult in ancient astrology.

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Quote:
For a long time, many astrologers took for granted that Equal Houses was the one and only system used by ancient astrologers. Of course we now know this to be incorrect. Now WHS is in vogue in traditional astrology. It will be interesting to see the next turn of the wheel (no pun intended).


This is a very true. I agree Astrology goes through its intellectual fashions. At one time the astrological community was all heavily focused on using astrology as a psychological tool. Then from the mid-1980s interest began to shift to more traditional techniques. I was commonly accepted for years that ancient astrology only used whole sign aspects and these were only within sign. We now know ancient astrologers also looked at the aspects by degrees too and would consider conjunctions across sign. Deborah Houlding was I think one of the first to challenge the the intellectual consensus by pointing out sources like Manilius and actual charts by Valens that contradicted the common view.

Many traditional astrologers also confidently argue today whole sign houses was without doubt the original system used in ancient astrology. Again though Deborah Houlding has questioned the certainty of this by actually citing textual references that question this. I think her more careful, cautious approach based on actually studying the sources rather than accepting the view of the astrological 'herd' is commendable.

Nevertheless there is no doubt that whole sign houses have become fashionable due to the large number of prominent traditional astrologers who advocate them today (Robert Hand, Robert Schmidt, Ben Dykes, Chris Brennan, Demetra George, Joseph Crane, Dorian Greenbaum etc)

I remember a joke by Meira Epstein at the UK Astrological conference a couple of years ago where she ''apologised'' for using the unfashionable Placidus house system and not Whole sign houses!

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sun May 03, 2015 9:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
Then your Moon is near the end of tropical Scorpio where my Mercury is. This is definitely an astrological area of the zodiac. Many astrologers will have key planets in that area. I think I remember that Liz Green’s ascendant is there. You’ll be interested in these quotes from Liber Hermetis (sidereal since these LH notes often include reference to stars):

"Of the Fixed Stars and Degrees in Scorpio
"From the fifth to the seventh degree is the Uranoscopus, i.e. the one looking at the sky

"From the first degree to the fifth the degrees are lucid. They make astrologers [and] astronomers, always having hope in God."

Liber Hermetis 25 (in Liber Hermetis, Part II, translated by Robert Zoller, Golden Hind Press, 1993.


Thanks Therese. Very interesting. The reference is certainly sidereal if by that you mean fixed stars. However, the reference system these stars are related to i.e. zodiac could have been tropical if you consider the effects of procession. Robert Zoller was certainly thinking along those lines in his introduction to his translation. Problem is we dont really know how old this text is. In any case I would prefer not to get into that discussion on this thread if you dont mind.

There certainly seems to be something astrological going on around 28 Scorpio tropical. I have literally lost count of the number of astrologers I have met with connections there. I remember chatting to two prominent members of this forum a few years ago and we discovered we all had the Moon on the same degree!

Therese Hamilton:
Quote:
I meant that equal house cusps in trine to each other will have nakshatras on the cusp with the same ruling planet. Some Indian astrologers are now giving emphasis to nakshatras in trine to each other, rather like they’re a unit. (I might post something on this later as their view increases the importance of the trine aspect over squares and oppositions.)


Ok. I would look forward to seeing more on that if you have the time. I am still finding it hard to visualise this.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Quote:
I discount whole sign houses except for special yogas. With equal house, of course, the 90 degree point from the ascendant marks the cusps of the 10th and 4th houses. I’ve noted that the MC-IC axis responds to transits for events. This axis might show up in quadrant division for certain professions or other factual information. (I have some research on this, but can’t look it up at the moment.)

I haven’t been able to find any particular external patterns for planets near the MC/IC axis as such. That means they would only be visible if we're familiar with a person's psychology. So for the moment, I’ll say these points respond to transits. (The Gauquelin statistical research is quite valid in my opinion, but for individual cases the patterns often are not obvious.)


This issue interests me a lot at present. On the one hand I feel Whole sign, Indian Equal or Sripati are more accurate by allowing the 1st house to begin well above the ASC.

Thanks for the example from your nativity. As a hard wired tropicalist I cant help reflecting that your MC is probably in tropical Libra and therefore Venus is your MC dispositor. That does seem to fit your artistic background very well!

But what I am really interested in is the Lords of the Equal/WSH 10th vs the MC. I must state in contrast to your chart I have found numerous charts where a planet on the MC is highly descriptive of a person's fate.

Of course a planet on the zenith is aspecting the ASC so is sure to be powerfully expressed.

But my experience with charts is that the MC ruler is more often reflective of career/honours things than the ruler of the Equal/WSH 10th. I haven't really got to the bottom of differentiating what the difference is between the two. Pity we work with different zodiacs as I cant directly utilise findings in sidereal charts. But I do want to open a practically focused thread that examines charts for both rulers in tropical charts.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 518
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I meant that equal house cusps in trine to each other will have nakshatras on the cusp with the same ruling planet. Some Indian astrologers are now giving emphasis to nakshatras in trine to each other, rather like they’re a unit. (I might post something on this later as their view increases the importance of the trine aspect over squares and oppositions.)


What I find particularly intriguing is that there are three nakshatras starting at 0° Aries, Leo and Sagittarius, as the Fire Trigon has special significance for organizing the zodiak (as elka and I both concluded in different ways).

What is the ruler of these three nakshatras?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1343
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:

What I find particularly intriguing is that there are three nakshatras starting at 0° Aries, Leo and Sagittarius, as the Fire Trigon has special significance for organizing the zodiak (as elka and I both concluded in different ways).

What is the ruler of these three nakshatras?

Ketu, Moon's South Node.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated