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Vehlow house system
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astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Vehlow house system Reply with quote

Hi
From what I`ve been reading,the Vehlow system is based on the world horoscope,which has 15 cancer rising,indicating that the AC degree is the middle of the house. Apparently this is what the ancient astrologers used. And of course he provides some case studies with clients

https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2006/09/26/the-horoscope-of-the-world/

See page 24
http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/johannes_vehlow_werke/erich_wiesel.pdf

http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/johannes_vehlow_werke/vehlow_kalender_1952_haeuserproblem.pdf
Maybe a German member could help.This is difficult German


Last edited by astrocorreia on Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Velhow system- world chart Reply with quote

astrocorreia wrote:
Hi
From what I`ve been reading,the Velhow system is based on the world horoscope,which has 15 cancer rising,indicating that the AC degree is the middle of the house. Apparently this is what the ancient astrologers used.


This system was also propagated by the Indian astrologer B. V. Raman in the modern times, thus it's sometimes called Vehlow-Raman - but there is no evidence that it has an antique origin, to my knowledge.

Quote:
And of course he provides some case studies with clients

https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2006/09/26/the-horoscope-of-the-world/


I have never heard of a connection between the Thema mundi and the Zoroastrian story of the Fall as that article suggests. Looks like a modern mix of astrology, mythology and theosophy to me. Here you have some sober information on the topic:

http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2007/06/11/the-thema-mundi/

Quote:
See page 24
http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/johannes_vehlow_werke/erich_wiesel.pdf

http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/johannes_vehlow_werke/vehlow_kalender_1952_haeuserproblem.pdf
Maybe a German member could help.This is difficult German
[/quote]

That's better. Thanks.

Despite my time constraints, I could certainly translate some small parts.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I can't see the relevancy to this particular thread, I like this article, so was glad of the link to it. In my opinion, not enough has been made of how Zoroastrian teachings have affected the ancient principles of astrology.
https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2006/09/26/the-horoscope-of-the-world/
(Just wanted to say that)
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astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
My point with this thread is that from the very beginnings of astrology, the cusp appears to have been used as middle of a house,Velhow also seems to assume that.Otherwise why would they place the AC at around 15 Cancer in the world chart?
But I`m not versed in the history of astrology. Just food for thought
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Deb"]. In my opinion, not enough has been made of how Zoroastrian teachings have affected the ancient principles of astrology.
https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2006/09/26/the-horoscope-of-the-world/
(Just wanted to say that)[/quote]

I totally agree -- However, there is a confounding of Zoroaster with Zarathustra -- Zoroaster means star gazer and I believe refers to the Babylonian astrologer who left the gates open for Cyrus armies (see "Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin" in OT/Daniel) who taught the Magi astrology and was made the Chief Magus for the favor ... the 1st documented natal chart of an individual under the Persian Hegemony ... discovered the Chronactors (Ju/Sa 20 year szyzygy) & thus followed their "star" to Bethlehem a Pl/Ne conjunction post Cyrus -- testing out the Zoroasterian predictions (70 weeks of astrology in OT) ...
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Though I can't see the relevancy to this particular thread, I like this article, so was glad of the link to it. In my opinion, not enough has been made of how Zoroastrian teachings have affected the ancient principles of astrology.
https://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2006/09/26/the-horoscope-of-the-world/
(Just wanted to say that)


I certainly agree that this is a subject of interest, but personally, I would prefer a more scientific treatment than what that article is presenting. It's a wild mishmash of ideas, none of them backed up by sources. <shrug>
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael sternbach:
Quote:
This system was also propagated by the Indian astrologer B. V. Raman in the modern times, thus it's sometimes called Vehlow-Raman


Yes I opened a thread a couple of years ago on the Indian forum which compared the identical house systems used by the Indian astrologer B.V. Raman and Johannes Vehlow.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7598&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

My interim research indicated the system may have been used in India before Raman possibly taking us into the late 19th century. However, I have found no hard evidence to support that yet.

Actually, I thought I was the first person to coin the term Vehlow-Raman or Raman-Vehlow house system but maybe not!

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri May 01, 2015 11:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Michael sternbach:
Quote:
This system was also propagated by the Indian astrologer B. V. Raman in the modern times, thus it's sometimes called Vehlow-Raman


yes I opened a thread a couple of years ago on the Indian forum which compared the identical house systems used by the Indian astrologer B.V. Raman and Johannes Vehlow.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7598&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

My interim research indicated the system was used in India before Raman possibly taking us into the late 19th century at the very least.

Mark


Hi
I had forgotten I had already opened a thread on Velhow.

As i said,Velhow houses might explain the Gauguelin effect even better than whole signs. Since angular planets are often in cadent houses and in the previous sign. This can only happen in the Velgow system.
Ex: MC at 10 Gemini,Saturn at 25 Taurus
WS would put Saturn in the 9th. Using Velhow Saturn is at the beginning of 10th.

But this requires more research
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astrocorreia wrote:
Quote:
From what I`ve been reading,the Velhow system is based on the world horoscope,which has 15 cancer rising,indicating that the AC degree is the middle of the house. Apparently this is what the ancient astrologers used. And of course he provides some case studies with clients


From my admitedly crude reading of Vehlow thanks to google translate and some basic High school German I thought he especially emphasized the solar connection and the 15 degree orb of the sun either side of the ASC. He also mentions Egyptian solar mysticism somewhere too I think.

Since Vehlow's time there has been lots of research into early house systems. While the question is by no means resolved a lot of astrologers seem to think whole sign houses was the likeliest candidate as the earliest template for all later house systems. Advocates of this view include Robert Hand, Robert Schmidt, Ben Dykes, Chris Brennan etc.

However, there does seem some evidence of early use of both Porphyry and Equal houses too. So the reality may have been more complex. Deborah Houlding researched some interesting evidence from Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) which seemed to show he may have used all three systems. The logic of an equal house sector 30 degree from the ASC also seems to be expressed by Dorotheus (1st century CE). He stated the influence of the ASC extended 30 degrees from the ASC zodiacally.

Nevertheless, I haven’t seen any support for the idea that Vehlow’s system was around in ancient astrology.

In addition I am not aware that the Thema Mundi assumes the ASC must fall in the middle of Cancer. I think it is actually all the planets that fall at 15 degress in the Thema Mundi. At least according to the Roman astrologer Firmicus Maternus. Its usually presented in a whole sign manner. I would be interested what sources Vehlow looked at that seemed to suggest this.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri May 01, 2015 7:43 am; edited 4 times in total
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astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
astrocorreia wrote:
Quote:
From what I`ve been reading,the Velhow system is based on the world horoscope,which has 15 cancer rising,indicating that the AC degree is the middle of the house. Apparently this is what the ancient astrologers used. And of course he provides some case studies with clients


From my admitedly crude reading of Vehlow thanks to google translate and some basic High school German I thought he especially emphasized the solar connection and the 15 degree orb of the sun either side of the ASC. He also mentions Egyptian solar mysticism somewhere too I think.

Since Vehlow's time there has been lots of research into early house systems. While the question is by no means resolved a lot of astrologers seem to think whole sign houses was the likeliest candidate as the earliest template for all later house systems. Advocates of this view include Robert Hand, Robert Schmidt, Ben Dykes, Chris Brennan etc.

However, there does seem some evidence of early use of both Porphyry and Equal houses too. So the reality may have been more complex. Deborah Houlding researched some interesting evidence from Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) which seemed to show he may have used all three systems. The logic of an equal house sector 30 degree from the ASC also seems to be expressed by Dorotheus (1st century CE). He stated the influence of the ASC extended 30 degrees from the ASC zodiacally.

Nevertheless, I haven’t seen any support for the idea that Vehlow’s system was around in ancient astrology.

In addition I am not aware that the Thema Mundi assumes the ASC must fall in the middle of a sign. Its usually presented in a whole sign manner. I would be interested what sources Vehlow looked at that seemed to suggest this.

Mark


http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/johannes_vehlow_werke/erich_wiesel.pdf

Page 49.This is actually from Erich Wiesel,who developd a similar system to Velhow
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astrocorreia



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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And here Velhow gives an example of a client whom he had advised to get married,because of Jupiter in 7th and good aspects to Moon and Venus.5 years later the client told him his marriage was hell. He believed this was due to Jupiter in 8th by equal house on one hand no longer having nothing to do with marriage. But Venus was strong and Moon well aspected so he still had doubts. He use the old formula of solar chart with Sun rising,which the Kabbalists used. Saturn opposite Sun would explain the poor marriage as well.

http://www.astrologie-chirologie.com/johannes_vehlow_werke/vehlow_kalender_1952_haeuserproblem.pdf
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had interest in this system for a couple of years now. I have been unsatisfied with quadrant systems for much longer than that. Not least due to the problem of latitude on quadrant houses. Living in Scotland I see many natal examples of Placidus houses with the classic large or shrunken houses. While i understand the astronomical reason for this I find it unsatisying.

I use whole sign houses and get results which I am quite happy with. I accept I am biased but I consistently see whole sign houses producing more reliable delineation of natal issues. However, in whole sign there is the issue of charts with very late ascending degrees. I tend to examine those in equal too. But in many ways I find the Vehlow-Raman system more appealing.

On reading Vehlow I found myself rather supporting his full on criticism of placidus houses!

Symbolically, I really like the idea of associating the houses with the rising Sun (rather than the unequal ascensional rising times of signs). While rising times may vary the transiting Sun can be approximated into 30 degrees. Its traditional orb was 30 degrees with an orb 15 degrees before and behind it. This fits the Vehlow houses.

The early meaning of many of the houses can also be symbolically related to solar mysticism and the diurnal Sun starting at the ASC and moving clockwise through the houses.

Another argument I like for this house system is that it helps to explain the so called Gauguelin effect. Its true medieval astrology (following Ptolemy) allowed a 5 degree orb before a cusp. So the house effectively started 5 degrees before the cusp. But this frequently fails to explain the large number of prominent people with clusters of planets in quadrant or equal sign 12th house houses.

The ASC is after all a power point in the chart. The idea you often find in modern astrology that anything above the ASC degree is by definition automatically weak seems nonsensical to me.

Looking at Babylonian astrology planets rising in the sky were often seen as at their most powerful. Cutting off a house at the ASC degree loses that visual astrology dimension. Influence around the ASC doesn't stop immediately. Its more like a light that gradually fades out.

As I see it only house systems that frequently start the 1st house above the ASC can deal with this.

Excluding the so callled clockwise house system that counts the 12th as the first , 11th as second etc we only have 3 conventional house systems that really address this paradox:

Whole sign
Sripati
Vehlow-Raman

Of course one could be more radical and reject houses altogether but I am trying to stay within the confines of fairly orthodox astrology.

Very often what other astrologers see as 12th house planets I see in reverse as 1st house with whole sign. I can think of several natal delineations where this has proved more relaible.

While I intend to stick with whole signs I think Vehlow is a good system to measure planetary strength with. Although advocates of quadrant systems will inevitably argue it loses the centrality of the MC for the 10th. That of course is a point that also applies to whole sign and equal.

If you prefer quadrant houses you could use Sripati houses. These are a variant of Porphyry houses where the cusps are placeed at the centre of houses not the beginning/ end. This is a popular system in India today.

Lets look at a practical example. Below is the opening of poll chart for the UK General election next week. It can be seen as a kind of contest chart with the incumbents/status quo indicated by ASC and challenger(change) indicated by the DESC. The chart is displayed in Placidus houses.



If one uses Vehlow-Raman ,Whole sign or Sripati houses this Mercury is strong in the first house. Its not as powerful as it could be since it is over 10 degrees from the ASC. Still it is the domicile ruler in its own sign in the first house. A powerful indicator for the incumbent. Although a square to Neptune indicates confusion over the outcome.

But if you use a quadrant house system like Placidus, Alcabitius, Porphyry, Regiomontanus etc (or Equal) the ASC ruler Mercury is weak as it falls in the 12th house. Which is it?

This seems like a good test of the competing house systems!

If David Cameron loses next week I may need to return to the drawing board...

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Tue May 05, 2015 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even without astrology I`d be surprised if he lost to Miliband. I don`t think he`s the sort the British on the whole take to

But note that Mercury is going R soon
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi...

I wanted to post something on houses from Book I of Dorotheus' Carmen Astrologicum, but can't find the link to Book 1 on Skyscript. I only see the link to Book III. Can someone point me to the link? Thanks.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus1.pdf

found towards the bottom of this page

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/books.html

under reviews and reprints..
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