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Unconditional surrender May '45 - which chart?

 
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Lunlumo



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Münster, Germany

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 8:39 am    Post subject: Unconditional surrender May '45 - which chart? Reply with quote

In the western states May 8th is regarded as the day when the war in Europe ended. In Russia it's May 9th.
This matter is quite complicated. Actually there were three events within just 2 days: unconditional surrender at Reims, then again somewhere near Lüneburg, northern Germany, then one more time in Berlin/Karlshorst (Jodl and Keitel signing the final document). The Soviets had insisted on that as they had not been present in Reims and Lüneburg. The document says that war ended at midnight (German daylight saving time).
However, Keitel and Jodl sighned the document not until (around) 00:20, May 9th. So, the Soviets/Russians are fully right when stating that the war ended on May 9th.

But things are even more complicated: some time between 22 and 23 hours of May 8th, a telegramme from Flensburg (on the border to Denmark) was sent to the commanders of the Wehrmacht - see the document given below. It was an order by Dönitz, who had been appointed by Hitler as his successor. According to that document any fighting on whatever front had to be stopped by one o'clock on May 9th. Generally this order was followed. So the war in Europe actually came to an end at that time.

http://files.homepagemodules.de/b635222/f6t334p2643n2_mSngCAGp.jpg

The horoscope based on that time seems to be the "rigth" one.

When referred to Berlin the horoscope of that day and time gives an AC at 10 degrees Capricorn - which is exactly the AC of the Federal Republic founded on May 24th, 1949, 0:00 / May 23rd, 22 GMT.

LL
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Last edited by Lunlumo on Sun May 10, 2015 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Southern Cross



Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 49

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the research Lunlumo! I agree that the 9th of may at 1 am looks like the right time.

Which time do you use for the chart of Nazigermany? I take the 30th of Jan 1933 at 11:07 am. The end of the war has tr. mars und tr. neptun square cusp3 (documents) exactly when using topocentric housecusps.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4986
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Lunlumo

Nice piece of research.

Sorry for not commenting earlier. I was a little caught up in the UK General Election!

Mark
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Lunlumo



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Münster, Germany

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for responding.
@Mark - without any doubt: the GB elections would certainly have caught my attention as well. :-)

@Southern Cross
I agree as to the time given for Jan 30 .
In addition the following date should also be heeded: March 23, 19:25 / 18:25 GMT: Göring, then president of the Reichstag (=parliament) proclaimed that the so-called "Ermächtigungsgesetz" (= law giving all power of state to the then ruling government) had just been accepted by the majority of the parliament. Historians generally agree that this was a point of no return.
Regards, LL
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we seem to be getting into the topic of when we should time Nazi Germany from I might as well share this old discussion between Lunlumo and myself on precisely that topic:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5392&view=previous&sid=ce55fc419e28a9b6f56ec62b9d61f617

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
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Lunlumo



Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 298
Location: Münster, Germany

Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for reminding me, Mark.
I found the time 19:52 for end of the session. This is definitely stated in the record ("Reichstagsprotokoll"), I found a pdf-document.
And "some minutes earlier" - Göring giving the result of the vote. The time is not mentioned in the "Protokoll". I gave 19:45 for the proclamation - I can't actually remember where I found that time.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/ermaechtigungsgesetz-vom-maerz-als-hitlers-diktatur-ihren-freibrief-bekam-1.1631271
There it says that Göring gave the announcemant at 19:52 . So this can be relied on.
AC around 19 Libra - which is close to Hitler's AC.
The law formally "legalized" the Nazi-state. Actually it meant the end of the Weimar Republic.
LL
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Southern Cross



Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 49

Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Between Hitler becoming Reichskanzler and the Ermächtigungsgesetz there were other important dates like the 1th of February when the Reichstag was abolished or the Reichstagsbrandverordnung from the 28th of February.

From a practical point of view I found the chart from the 30th of january working really well like World War II started under Tr. Uranus in conjunction with the AC and the end of the war happened when Tr. Pluto was in opposition to saturn.
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