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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Astrology is psychologically dangerous
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AstroChuck



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 1
Location: NY

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:34 pm    Post subject: Astrology is psychologically dangerous Reply with quote

And here is why I make that statement.

When I first got into it, I read up about my sign. I have a Virgo Sun and Virgo rising. Typically, I am an outgoing person. But reading the description of my sign made me feel like I'm supposed to be this reserved, shy, neat freak, yet intelligent and analytical. I started dabbling deeper, and accepting the idea that maybe I am supposed to be this way. I started behaving more Virgo like, and cerebral.

It wasn't until later on that I discovered Western Sidereal astrology. I read some of Ken Bowser's material and was pretty intrigued to find out that I was no longer an uptight Virgo, but an outgoing and confident Leo. Guess what? This felt more natural to me, and I started BEHAVING more outgoing and confident and lost the whole cerebral act.

My point? This stuff can act like a self fulfilling prophecy if you believe it. Even reading about my Virgo sign on this site left me with the impression that all I am good for, is being a slave to other people.....and cleaning.

It's mentally dangerous and irresponsible to tell people who they are, or should be, based on some myths that nobody even understands how it even works in the first place.

This post is not meant to offend anyone, and I am only taking of my own experience.
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jventura



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 291
Location: Portugal

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Chuck,

sorry, but we usually don't infer much from the Sun alone, and the rising sign is just one element of analysis. The sign, house and nature of the ruler of the rising sign, for instance, provides a little more insight. Finally, there's another assessment called "Temperament" where you can get even more information.

But I agree partially with one of your conclusions: It is mentally dangerous and irresponsible to tell people (or yourself) anything, specially when you don't understand much about what you are doing..


Joćo Ventura
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My point? This stuff can act like a self fulfilling prophecy if you believe it. Even reading about my Virgo sign on this site left me with the impression that all I am good for, is being a slave to other people.....and cleaning.


I don't believe you, because there is nothing on this site that WOULD leave you with that impression. The forum is created for exchange of opinion between people with a sincere interest in astrology, and since I don't believe the sincerity of your post I am disabling your ability to post until you email me references for the material you have read on this site that leaves you with the impression that all Virgos are good for is being slaves to other people or cleaning.
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ModWasp



Joined: 21 Mar 2014
Posts: 617
Location: England

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When I first got into it, I read up about my sign. I have a Virgo Sun and Virgo rising. Typically, I am an outgoing person. But reading the description of my sign made me feel like I'm supposed to be this reserved, shy, neat freak, yet intelligent and analytical.


That's what happens when one is not selective with their reading material - most of it is complete dross. It's surprising you didn't work that one out already, being a Virgo and all that.
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Barbara



Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 5
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Astrology is psychologically dangerous Reply with quote

AstroChuck wrote:
...

My point? This stuff can act like a self fulfilling prophecy if you believe it. ...

It's mentally dangerous and irresponsible to tell people who they are, or should be, based on some myths that nobody even understands how it even works in the first place.


The responsibility is with you, AstroChuck, to listen to astrologers with discrimination. If you already know that astrology is based on myths and that nobody understand how it works, then it's up to you to accept or reject anything you read here or elsewhere.

I do think that you have raised some valid points though. What I did, is try to tackle the" understand(ing) of how it works" before letting myself be too influenced by anything I read. I found that Tropical Astrology, being based on the seasons, actually has a vaguely rational basis in Seasonal Biology - please see the recent breakthroughs in scientific research in biological clocks, for example

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101205202510.htm

whereas Sidereal Astrology does not have any such rational basis, because the idea that stars (Sidus=star) apart from our Sun have a direct effect on our personalities does not stand up to the reality of scientific testing. Also, when used by Vedic astrologers in India, Sidereal astrology
can be very damaging, in my opinion, because it is so much part of that country's culture, with little room to question its use until recently.

And the need for discrimination and a possible rational explanation becomes even more relevant if we are considering a whole horoscope, not just Sun signs .

Before the breakthroughs in Seasonal Biology even Tropical astrology suffered from this irrationality, but at least was given a big boost in the last century by the introduction of a Humanist approach - for example Dane Rhudyar. Nowadays, modern "Psychological" astrology, as taught by Robert Hand and Liz Greene have overcome much of the old fatalistic element through the incorporation of free will and spiritual alchemy. Reading though the description of Sun sign Virgo at this site,

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/virgo.html

I do see a mixture of quasi psychological and traditional descriptions ("temporal humour, dryness etc) but, as per 99% of descriptions like this, for any sign, whether in a book, magazine or internet, there is very rarely a rational argument for how these descriptions were derived, only the argument from authority, from being old or from occult sources (history, mystery and fame).

So even though everyone is ultimately responsible for what they let into their minds, astrologers could avoid future criticisms like yours, in my opinion, if we prefaced our descriptions with some sort of rational explanation of how astrology could work.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 872
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a lot of pop-schlock astrology out there, and it can be hard for a newbie to distinguish high-quality character delineations from poor-quality ones.

Just to bridge the gap slightly between traditional and modern western astrology, I think it is most helpful to understand signs as belonging to elements and modalities/qualities, and having ruling planets.

Virgo is an earth sign. Its primary orientation is material and practical.

Virgo is a mutable sign. It tends to be adaptive and flexible.

Virgo is ruled by Mercury. He rules the intellect and the hands, linking Virgo to practical knowledge and crafts.

The sign Virgo was named for the constellation Virgo. Anciently she was variously linked to the goddesses Hygeia, Astraea, Ceres/Demeter, and even the Virgin Mary. Some astrologers historically have taken meanings of the sign from the nature of these deities. For example, Ceres was the Roman goddess of grain, and Virgo today rules grain stores. Astraea had a vision of purity and goodness that caused her to flee the wickedness of the earth, contributing to the image of sun-Virgo people as concerned with perfectionism.

There is more to get to about Virgo if one explores traditional astrology's categorizations of the various signs, but I hope you get the idea that it makes more sense to understand how a sign operates than to learn a bunch of seemingly random and unpalatable static personality traits.

From Virgo's material orientation, adaptability, and quest for improvement, we can get a sense of sun-Virgo's desire to be helpful to people in practical ways. From Mercury we get a sense of discernment. This has nothing to do with slavishness: slaves are a 6th house matter, and signs are not identical with houses.

The problem with pop-schlock astrology is that it doesn't acknowledge how a Virgo sun might be modified by other chart factors.

There is always a danger of people trying to model themselves after their sun-sign as it is described in magazines and printed on coffee mugs. But a mature person has a stronger sense of self than to accept these character lampoons at face value.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 872
Location: Canada

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally, I did pick up the following from the article on Virgo posted at: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/virgo.html

"Virgos move through their environment effortlessly rearranging, organising, and bringing order to chaos. From the Virgoan housewife who passes through a room picking up the clutter as she goes...."

"Virgos are unhappy with slack standards and being predisposed to working long and hard themselves it is to be expected that they will urge others likewise."

"...they are rarely driven by the accumulation of power or wealth and for the most part take full satisfaction in providing the wind beneath the wings of other high-fliers."

"...Too often dismissed as ideal 'secretarial material', Virgos can and do excel in managerial positions, but usually within the directives of a large corporate identity where there are established procedures and a higher level of authority to defer to."
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2637
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

people believe what they want to believe.. it works the same way whether you are sane or crazy.. the crazy person might believe it a bit more passionately and act on it though, lol.. accepting you might be a bit crazy is the beginning of some sanity.. astrology is neither dangerous or un-dangerous.. it's the person who gets into it that tells us whether it is dangerous or not.. a stove is dangerous too if you don't know enough not to stick your hand on a live element!

this isn't about astrology.. it's about a persons mind and whether they're gullible enough to believe or not what they read without question.. question everything including my comments lol.. don't think you know so much.. as the funny little man from long ago said 'the further you go, the less you know'.. if you go even farther, you'll know next to nothing! keep going!!! - real freedom, lol...
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 445
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, every sign and planet covers a wide range of possible manifestations, from the most problematic to highly sophisticated ones.

Of course, a Virgo can be slavish. As much as an Aries may be dictatorial, a Scorpio scheming, a Pisces addictive etc.

The OP's false assumption was that Virgo's expression in terms of character traits would be limited to servility, which is absurd, of course.

Among its other rather difficult manifestations, Virgo expresses itself in an overly critical yet biased attitude - which I think the OP is exemplifying perfectly. No offence... Wink
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Barbara



Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 5
Location: Los Angeles

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Sternbach wrote:
Well, every sign and planet covers a wide range of possible manifestations, from the most problematic to highly sophisticated ones.

Of course, a Virgo can be slavish. As much as an Aries may be dictatorial, a Scorpio scheming, a Pisces addictive etc.

The OP's false assumption was that Virgo's expression in terms of character traits would be limited to servility, which is absurd, of course.

Among its other rather difficult manifestations, Virgo expresses itself in an overly critical yet biased attitude - which I think the OP is exemplifying perfectly. No offence... Wink


I also thought that the OP' was trying to emphasize that we can get different impressions of astrology depending on whether we read Tropical or Sidereal interpretations, and that for a novice this could be damaging.

Anyway, I thought it was a bit harsh for Ms. Houlding to disable the OP's forum membership because she felt that he/she was insincere. As cited above, the Skyscript article about Virgo does actually mention picking up clutter, albeit in a very broad and balanced manner, and I thought the dismissal sent a message of control ("you'd better post what we like or we'll disablee you") rather than open, polite discussion as I have seen on other astrology forums.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2637
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barbara,

i don't think deb's response is anywhere near as harsh as the attitude reflected in the person who started this thread fwiw..
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have virgo rising and when I read the extracts quoted by Waybread I thought the HR dept at work had leaked my last annual assessment

They can call me servile if they like. They pay £22.5K pa and I am not overly critical of that

Smile

Matthew
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astrocorreia



Joined: 29 Mar 2015
Posts: 87

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barbara wrote:
Michael Sternbach wrote:
Well, every sign and planet covers a wide range of possible manifestations, from the most problematic to highly sophisticated ones.

Of course, a Virgo can be slavish. As much as an Aries may be dictatorial, a Scorpio scheming, a Pisces addictive etc.

The OP's false assumption was that Virgo's expression in terms of character traits would be limited to servility, which is absurd, of course.

Among its other rather difficult manifestations, Virgo expresses itself in an overly critical yet biased attitude - which I think the OP is exemplifying perfectly. No offence... Wink


I also thought that the OP' was trying to emphasize that we can get different impressions of astrology depending on whether we read Tropical or Sidereal interpretations, and that for a novice this could be damaging.

Anyway, I thought it was a bit harsh for Ms. Houlding to disable the OP's forum membership because she felt that he/she was insincere. As cited above, the Skyscript article about Virgo does actually mention picking up clutter, albeit in a very broad and balanced manner, and I thought the dismissal sent a message of control ("you'd better post what we like or we'll disablee you") rather than open, polite discussion as I have seen on other astrology forums.


I agree.Disabling membership smacks of insecurity
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 355

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I thought it was a bit harsh, too. The contributor is surely right that anything which we choose to believe can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and his remarks about the Virgo delineation on Skyscript were really just exaggerating, for a bit of rhetorical effect, what the text does say.

One thing I like about the Skyscript homepage is that it points you first at houses, planets and dignities, you have to root around in the articles section to find sign delineations. But when, as people will, you just go to "your sign", it really isn't clear whether this delineation is supposed to be if the Sun is there, or the ascendant, or perhaps the midheaven, the Moon or a stellium.

I find it fair enough that the contributor came away a bit irritated, especially if they'd just heard about sidereal, and weren't sure which zodiac (or both) all this was referring to.

Graham
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Kent - England

Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I can understand Deb's reasoning and she only stopped his ability to post on a temporary basis.
Is someone wants to express their freedom to say anything they like there are plenty of places on the web to do so but how about those who do not want to listen to them. The word discriminate used to mean to distinguish between good and bad

I have spent most of my adult life working and have never asked to be a manager. If I go to an astrologer with a documented birth time and she tells me that I am a Virgo and Virgo's do not seek management jobs then the assertion is true

If she tells me that I am Schrodingers cat then then the assertion is false

If she tells me that I am earthy and mutable I tick the "dont know" box as I do not have a scooby wot she is on about

The only potential psychological problem with astrology I could face is depression caused the fact that my fellows do not understand what querent means and what it implies
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