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Skyscript Astrology Forum

What do the Moon's Nodes mean?
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We do seem to have got caught up in an astrological cul de sac in all this discussion on Noel Tyl. Its not as if he is the only modern astrologer to write on the nodes!

One modern astrologer I generally enjoy reading is Celeste Teal. While I dont share her use of modern rulerships I think her ideas are generally well set out and level headed.

Below is a short piece by Celeste Teal which delineates the nodes by planetary contact. This can be used for both natal and the transiting nodes. Teal's interpretation of the nodes effect is actually fairly traditional.

One interesting addition though is the consideration of transiting nodes. Although this is increasingly common in western natal astrology I think this technique probably originated with Indian astrology. I dont recall seeing this in western traditional literature. Planetary contact with the transiting nodes is certainly one of the more practical ways you can assess the influence of nodes. I have looked at it quite a bit for mundane events.

http://www.moonvalleyastrologer.com/the-moons-nodes/

Mark
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Location: San Francisco

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Celeste Teal too and have found her nodes transit interpretations useful.

Speaking of astrological cul de sacs, "karmic" and "mother knot" delineations of the nodes leave me going round in circles. I see them as untestable, culture bound, and the latter, in particular, sexist. But even without that view, the attributes of increase and decrease are so elegantly simple and tangible! A great place to start, in my opinion.
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Fleur



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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donna, I think that "mother knot" idea was somebody grappling with a very difficult fundamental concept, that we are born into this world of duality of good and evil. Hats off to anyone who attempts to describe this, without trotting out the esoteric astrology North node good, South node bad.

I can understand the Indian idea of the North node being materialistic in a way that isn't good for the soul, and the South node showing material loss in a way that is good for the soul. But I can't relate these ideas to the way that the Nodes represent contacts with significant people. This I have noticed in many ways with Indian astrology, I respect its validity but it doesn't relate to how I use astrology. It is something separate that I would need to study in great depth. I find the new age, esoteric astrology idea that the North node is good and South node bad to be totally unfounded in anything I have observed. From my personal observations they are an axis that works as a unity, though in a totally unrelated way I accept the Indian way of looking at them too, but as something that needs a lot of study in its own right.

The effect of the Nodes can be stunningly measurable, especially when they are transiting. And I have found that overwhelmingly it is the Mean Node which is significant, not the "True" Node.
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Fleur



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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The history of these ideas is interesting. I have used the Solar Arcs, and find them absolutely essential, so that if you don't have a birth time so can't do Solar Arcs from the chart angles to the planets, you are missing an essential piece of the puzzle. I never knew before where these ideas came from.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fleur wrote:
Quote:
The effect of the Nodes can be stunningly measurable, especially when they are transiting. And I have found that overwhelmingly it is the Mean Node which is significant, not the "True" Node.

It's interesting that Celeste Teal writes in her book:

So in both cases the positions of the [mean and true] nodes are generally somewhat of an approximation, and they are never far apart from one another, within a degree or so. Due to their consistent retrograde motion, the mean lunar nodes are most relevant for a study of karmic and spiritual implications in a natal chart. When used as a timing device in progressions, it is also the mean nodes that appear to be most accurate.

You can read more of this excerpt on Amazon's "Look Inside" option. (Lunar Nodes, Discover Your Soul's Karmic Mission by Celeste Teal.)
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Astrovedas



Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion: does anyone know when the now-ubiquitous 'karmic' interpretation of the nodes (ie, N. Node for future evolution, S.Node for the unassimilated past) first appeared in Western astrology? Isabel Hickey popularized this approach in the 70s, but I'm guessing it originally came out of Theosophy. Can anyone pinpoint an author or source? Thanks.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrovedas wrote:
Quote:
Interesting discussion: does anyone know when the now-ubiquitous 'karmic' interpretation of the nodes (ie, N. Node for future evolution, S.Node for the unassimilated past) first appeared in Western astrology? Isabel Hickey popularized this approach in the 70s, but I'm guessing it originally came out of Theosophy. Can anyone pinpoint an author or source? Thanks.


Welcome to the Skyscript forum!

You raise a really intriguing question. Of course this being Skyscript that interpretation of the nodes is certainly not ubiquitous. Traditional Perso-Arabic, European and Indian astrology have quite different perspectives. But I certainly accept that this interpretation of the nodes has become almost viral in modern astrology.

It is sometimes suggested that kind of Karmic association with the nodes is Indian in origin. But I have never found any support for that view. Many aspects of the chart can be seen as Karma or reflecting past life influence in Indian astrology.

So I think you are spot on in linking these ideas to Theosophy. But like you I dont know who originated these ideas. Maybe we should start our search at the beginning with Alan Leo and work forward?

I confess I haven't read much by Leo but he seems the logical prime suspect. He even published a book 'Esoteric Astrology' which may(?) cover the Karmic association of the nodes???

For anyone interested I would like to share an article by Martin Gansten (an astrologer and academic in Religious Studies).

''Reshaping karma: an Indic metaphysical paradigm in traditional and modern astrology''.

In the article Martin Gansten touches on how the Theosophists appropriated and altered Indian ideas like Karma.

http://www.martingansten.com/pdf/ReshapingKarma2011.pdf

It seems the strongly positivistic/evolutionary view of karma and rebirth found in the New age movement today had its origin in Theosophy. Its understanding of the terms karma and/or rebirth contrasts with the teachings of Indian religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

To quote Gansten:
Quote:
I have already said that in Indian thought, saṃsāra or the cycle of transmigration is a closed, beginningless system fuelled by karman. In Buddhism and Jainism this transmigratory existence is seen as a fundamental fact in itself, in no need of any further, underlying cause. In Hinduism, the world is typically considered as created by or emanating from God or the Absolute (brahman); but brahmanical theologians are also clear that the world is eternal, and its ‘emanation’ an ontological rather than a temporal relationship. The notion that creation serves some purpose is explicitly rejected; it is divine ‘play alone’.


Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you believe that the moon has something to do with the past, then it is a pretty quick jump to make an association with the moons nodes and karma.. karma has everything to do with the past.. i am not saying what i believe in any of it, but i am just saying the symbolic connection seems pretty obvious to me..
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M
Quote:
if you believe that the moon has something to do with the past, then it is a pretty quick jump to make an association with the moons nodes and karma.. karma has everything to do with the past.. i am not saying what i believe in any of it, but i am just saying the symbolic connection seems pretty obvious to me..



Hi James,

Your right of course that the Moon has associations with our past. But your rather missing the point that in modern astrology only the South Node is given that connection. The North Node is connected to future potentiality or if you prefer Karma.

Also I question your understanding of the word Karma. Its literally means 'action'. In Jain philosophy that is quite literal and gives equal weight to physical or mental action whether intended or not. In Buddhism priority is given to our thoughts and intentions. Karma can refer to our past, present and future in Indian thought. If you accept that concept we all carry our previous karma, create fresh karma in each moment and store up karmic seeds for our future. So in temporal terms its a misconception to think of Karma as just referring to the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Jainism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Buddhism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Hinduism

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

thanks.. i am aware of the more nuanced use of the word karma but thanks for going into it in more detail for anyone who might not be.. and you're correct to point out it is only the south node in modern astro 101 that offers this viewnd not the nodal axis more generally or the north node in particular..
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote

Quote:
mark,

thanks.. i am aware of the more nuanced use of the word karma but thanks for going into it in more detail for anyone who might not be.. and you're correct to point out it is only the south node in modern astro 101 that offers this viewnd not the nodal axis more generally or the north node in particular..


This focus in modern astrology on the South /North Node as our past and future Karma rather reminds me of the use of the lot of Fortune and Spirit in ancient astrology. The former represents our fated destiny and was associated with the Moon while the Lot of Spirit was more about how we exercise free will in our life and was connected to the Sun. Hence the Lot of Fortune was connected to the body like the Moon while while Lot of Spirit was more reflective of spiritual and higher intellectual matters like the Sun.

However, these points move much faster in a chart than the nodes so they were arguably far more personalised horoscopic indicators. I suppose the philosophical dillemma I have with the lot of Spirit is how can our free choices or spiritual development be plotted out in a birth chart? You could say this is even more the case for the slow moving North Node.

Mark
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naomibennett9



Joined: 04 Nov 2011
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:30 pm    Post subject: Lunar Nodes Paris Bombing Reply with quote

Extensive work was done on the lunar nodes and eclipses by Carl Payne Tobey. In the 1930's he did statistical research on fires with US national data. He didn't find a patter until he only used fires with loss of life. The the eclipses and lunar bending (lunar nodes sq the Sun) popped up. Also, Charles Jayne specialized in eclipse periods. See Bill Meridian's book on eclipses sold by the AFA.

Tobey found no difference between the north or south nodes. He did coin the term Moon Wobbles to indicate the exact aspects of Sun to the lunar nodes in conj, opposition and squares. He called them periods of 'human instability'. People act irrationally and make mistakes hence the loss of life factor.

Please note that the November 2015 Paris bombing occurred with tMars conj the lunar nodes. Planets like Mars and Uranus on the lunar create mundane events. I have an old article on my website, www.LearnAstrologyNow.com on moon wobbles and I discuss them in my book, Foundations of Astrology on Amazon. I have a long article on nodes that I have not posted since it needs revision. ( ps. My revised website is not perfect yet and is still missing images with it's third conversion.)

So the modern take is that lunar nodes with hard aspects to the Sun, Mars or Uranus create major events and are worth tracking. There seems to be no difference between the north and south node by characteristics.
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