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What do the Moon's Nodes mean?
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:47 am    Post subject: What do the Moon's Nodes mean? Reply with quote

What do the Moon's Nodes mean?

I know the stock phrases you read, that they are about life direction and the North node is good to follow and the South node drags you back.

I have also read that the Moon's nodes are about connections and relationships.

I read that in Indian astrology, both Rahu and Ketu are considered evil or malefic.

I have read astrologers saying that the South node indicates past lives. And karma, which is bit too vague to mean much.

Yet I haven't ever read anything that draws these disparate interpretations together in any meaningful way. And I haven't noticed any difference between the effects of the North and South nodes, they seem to be the same. Indian astrologers may be onto something, as I feel the Moon's Nodes are about duality and being incarnated into an impure, evil-mixed world?
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Jupiterhead



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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most commonly used name for the north node of the Moon is Rahu, “the seizer,” in his role as seizing the Sun and Moon during the time of eclipse. Rahu is considered to especially enjoy eclipsing the Moon and is thus Vidhumtuda, “moon troubler;” Rahu eclipsing the Moon will cause more trouble than will Ketu eclipsing the Moon, all other factors equal.

Rahu has no actual form that reflects light and is thus known as Agus, “without rays” and as Tama, “darkness, gloom,” which also refers to his nature of indicating that of which we are ignorant. Rahu also has some less desirable names, two of which are Ghata, “destruction” and Pata, “falling.” Rahu is very capable of bringing about both of these if he is poorly placed in the horoscope.

He can destroy that which is desired and have us fall from position,
fall from grace or fall into despair. Pata also means, “descending,”
and Rahu also indicates that for which we must descend to Earth.


The most commonly used name of the south node of the Moon is Ketu, “flag.” Another or its names, Dhvaja, means the same. A flag is used to mark one’s territory. Ketu is the flag in the horoscope that marks the “territory” that one has been most involved in in their recent past life.

Like Rahu, Ketu has not physical form and thus he does not reflect light as do the embodied Grahas, but, he is not considered to have quite the darkening effect of Rahu and thus he is only called Dhuma, “smoky, misty” and Dhumra, “smoky, dim,” as compared to Rahu’s dark names.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Saturnhead, that was a really interesting answer.

I think for me this question came to the boil as the currently transiting Pluto, Uranus and Moon's nodes are exactly and hard aspecting my natal Moon's nodes, and the argument with somebody close to me felt unbearably painful. I don't think it is going to heal quickly, though I tried. I don't know how to heal it. Natally both Pluto and Neptune aspect my Moon's Nodes, and nothing else, so it is unconscious stuff without any kind of hooks into the material world.
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Donna Chang



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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In medieval astrology the nodes signified increase (north) and decrease (south).
Thus they could be benefics or malefics depending on what planets they were aspecting.

www.bendykes.com/articles/nodes.php
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Fleur



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Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donna Chang wrote:
In medieval astrology the nodes signified increase (north) and decrease (south).
Thus they could be benefics or malefics depending on what planets they were aspecting.

www.bendykes.com/articles/nodes.php


Thanks. From what I have studied, there doesn't seem to be any difference between the two nodes, and a square to the nodes affects both of them.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fleur,

I think you have raised an interesting question in this thread that many astrologiers wonder about. Your quite right that a lot of the astrological ideas are contradictory. I guess nodes has to join the long list of astrological topics where there is no consensus.

I doubt we can really reach some kind of fudged compromise between all these views myself. Hence we need to make a choice.

In particular there are three fundamental takes:

1 The north and south node (although part of an axis) have distinct and separate astrological effects ( ancient, medieval and Indian + many moderns)

2 The north and south nodes operate exclusively as an axis without a separate effect at either node. (Some modern astrologers e.g.Noel Tyl)

3 The Nodes have no discernable astrological effect whatever. ( in practical terms many modern astrologers!)

Fleur wrote:

Quote:
Thanks. From what I have studied, there doesn't seem to be any difference between the two nodes, and a square to the nodes affects both of them.


Clearly the nodes form an axis. So planets squaring the nodes are powerful. Plus when we look at transiting nodes both points are moving through the charts. Modern teachers like Noel Tyl see the nodes in this unified way which you seem to prefer. Like many modern astrologers he attributes them to important contacts with people.

Both Ptolemy and Vettius Valens (2nd century CE) discuss this planets squaring the nodes as significant. To be more specific the Moon in relation to nodes. Valens actually thought the north node was more malefic than the south node.

The medieval view is that the north node brings an influx of energy and the South Node a depletion of energy. These sources often took the view that this meant a general malefic like Mars or Saturn were less damaging at the South Node since their destructive potential was reduced. At the same time benefics like Jupiter and Venus were also weakened at the south node so their benign potential was reduced.

The great 17th century astrologer William Lilly disagreed with this medieval perspective since his experience was the influence of the south node was always malefic regardless of which planets were involved. I must say I am more on Lilly's side in that debate.

I am also rather attracted to the Indian take on the nodes. While they see both points as malefics the North Node is if anything perceived as more dangerous. That is because they believe the North node (Rahu) can delude and entrap a person in a cycle of material dependency and attachment. The South Node (Ketu) brings material loss. However, that is usually when we are most open to spiritual insights about life.

You also need to appreciate that in Indian astrology the nodes are not just a point in the natal chart or the lunar mansions. Indian astrology also has a system of predictive periods (dashas) ruled over by each node. So Indian astrologers might look at a chart and state a person is in their Rahu or Ketu dasha/Time lord period.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice summation mark. thanks. i suppose ebertin / cosmobiologists could be lumped in with tyl's viewpoint as well.. he probably adopted if from them would be my guess.

fleur, for a good book on the nodes check out judith hills work. she has a lot of worthwhile insights worth considering. she has an interesting mix of astrological styles which will be enough to force an astrologer to work it out for themselves via a deeper consideration of charts with inclusion of the moons nodal axis..
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
nice summation mark. thanks. i suppose ebertin / cosmobiologists could be lumped in with tyl's viewpoint as well.. he probably adopted if from them would be my guess.


Noel Tyl mentions Ebertin a lot as one of his major influences so I strongly suspect you are spot on about him being his source for this. So was Ebertin the originator of this ‘holistic’ approach to the nodes do you think?

James_M wrote:
Quote:
fleur, for a good book on the nodes check out judith hills work. she has a lot of worthwhile insights worth considering. she has an interesting mix of astrological styles which will be enough to force an astrologer to work it out for themselves via a deeper consideration of charts with inclusion of the moons nodal axis.


Yes I got that book a few years back and think its one of the best books around in modern western astrology. After reading book after book rambling on about past life mumbo jumbo it was refreshingly different!

Not that I have a problem with the idea of reincarnation. Its just these ideas about the nodes are far too limited for me. Interestingly, Indian astrology never traditionally fixated on the nodes in this way. It seems to be a product of theosophy/esoteric astrology.

Mark
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Fleur



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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark and James, thanks for the very interesting replies that give me a lot to think about.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks fleur. happy to participate.

mark, i think you are correct in that insight in your last comment about the heavy focus on reincarnation..

it is my understanding tyl is way over-rated in a cult of tyl sort of way.. he reminds me like another one of those wizard of oz types hiding behind a screen afraid to come out.. maybe he does some good astro, but only for a """price""" can others see it, lol.. same deal with his 'solar arc' theory which is essentially taken from ebertins work as i understand it. i forget. maybe he says this somewhere clearly if one is willing to rifle through a few thousand pages of his pontificating, but i am not willing to!

now as to where the approach on not differentiating the north from the south end of the nodal axis, ebertin suggested connections to the axis has to do with 'connections' but i never read it being broken down more then that. any conjunction with the north node is an opposition to the other, so maybe that was the thinking.. the square would be most problematic as you get 2 squares instead of one, lol.. i am sorry i don't know more on the history of this and can't really i say i know that much of cosmobiology either.. alfred witte seems to be the inspiration for much of ebertin, but i do think ebertin and others also pushed the development of a particular strain of ideas down the road further..
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it is my understanding tyl is way over-rated in a cult of tyl sort of way.. he reminds me like another one of those wizard of oz types hiding behind a screen afraid to come out.. maybe he does some good astro, but only for a """price""" can others see it, lol.. same deal with his 'solar arc' theory which is essentially taken from ebertins work as i understand it.


I'm going to stick up for Noel a little bit. At the zenith of his influence he did have, and perhaps still does, a cult-like following. He does try to insulate his students. His ideas are not entirely mainstream modern astrology though. His strongest points are the fact that he has a system based on a psychological philosophy. He approaches the chart systematically, too. Whether anyone wishes to accept his system or philosophy is up to them.

He claims to have taken his solar arc theory from a famous German astrologer, Thomas Ring (1892-1983). To my knowledge, Ring doesn't claim to have invented the technique, but he did reference it in his papers and perhaps did not publish anything about it. Aspects seem to be the be all end all for modern astrologers and solar arcs keep the aspects as they are in the nativity throughout the life. Our own "Dr. H" liked them as support for directing through the bounds in mundane astrology.

As for Tyl hiding, he just turned 78 and I'm sure age is doing to him what it does to everyone else.

If anyone is seriously interested in Tyl on the nodes, I think I can locate a volume that will give us that information. It will take some digging on my part, so if there is no interest beyond idle curiosity, let it drop
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The criticism of having or developing a cult-like following could be applied to many well known astrologers. I don't know enough about Tyl's work to critique it, but I have heard him give engaging lectures and I can think of two times in my life when he acted very generously and supportively of my work, even though I was virtually unknown and our types of astrology could be considered to be very different. He was the first well known astrologer to contact me and encourage me to keep doing what I was doing. This was years ago - we had never corresponded or had any dealings with each other, but he telephoned me from the US out of the blue, just to say he had read one of my articles and was very impressed with it. There was no other reason for the call. So I have a different impression of him - there was no profit or price in him doing something like that, but it was priceless to me at that time. I think it shows he has a generous spirit and a genuine commitment to astrology and other astrologers.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom/deb

i hesitated to say what i said, but it was my experience of him and i stand by it. i appreciate your taking a different approach to help balance mine!

it is funny how individuals will show one side to one person that they don't show to another.. i guess it is human nature.. my only experience is on his forum where i was rightly viewed as a nobody in the astrological community.. perhaps if i was a different person who was starting to stand out in the astrological world community it would be different, but it wasn't and that ain't me..

i am telling you how i experienced him thru the forum he oversees. pompous and full of himself is how i saw him.. he treated those who had a different viewpoint that himself in an unfriendly and hostile manner, or his fleet of women admirers/groupies/students would essentially try to correct anyone who veered from his esteemed viewpoint. that was my experience. thanks for saying something positive on him. i am sure there are some good sides to him too!
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no doubt Noel Tyl has a large personality. Anyone who has attended one of his workshops would attest to that.

Because of that he often generates strong reactions in people either positive or negative. As we say here in the UK he is a bit like Marmite.

About 12 years ago my own Association came close to splitting up over divisions between us over those who strongly liked Tyl and wanted more workshops with him and those who couldn't abide him. So you will understand if I am rather guarded in what I say on this subject!

There is sometimes a problem that some astrologers assume a guru like status amongst many of their pupils. I can think of at least one traditional astrologer this might apply to. But is that really their fault or their students?

I have noticed that some personality types want to be spoon fed all the answers from one source. When they come across a strong , charismatic teacher they find it easy to become a ''true believer'' with a very narrow approach. So I do wonder if this isn't really more a problem of people being intellectually lazy and not willing to continue to examine and explore the answers for themselves. I think we all have a responsibility to keep asking questions, and testing ideas out in practice for ourselves. Plus there are a myriad of astrological approaches out there to learn from. Its not as if we live in an astrological North Korea where one astrologer controls all the media, bookshops and internet!

Getting back to the astrology (at last!) one thing I would say in favour of Tyl is that he teaches his students a system which they can verify with charts. So the assumption of some traditional astrologers that modern astrology is very vague at times doesn't really fit with Tyl's approach. I may personally not concur with him on many areas but there is no denying he has brought astrology alive for many people who have otherwise really struggled to interpret charts training with other schools.

I think we should be able to discuss Tyl's ideas here without getting into a debate on what we make of Tyl's personality. As someone who has attended a workshop on solar arcs with Tyl and own his book on the subject I really cannot agree with James that Tyl takes credit for inventing the technique! He cites many other sources in his book such as Naibod! Still, Tyl is no historian. As I recall his book cites German sources but rather bizarrely neglects the English astrologers like Vivian Robson and Charles Carter that really promoted this as the 'Radix technique' in the early 20th century. I do think that is a significant omission for a book that serves as an astrological door stopper on the subject.

Anyway, anyone for some lunar nodes?

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
If anyone is seriously interested in Tyl on the nodes, I think I can locate a volume that will give us that information. It will take some digging on my part, so if there is no interest beyond idle curiosity, let it drop


Hi Tom,

Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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