The 9th house and the father, etc.

1
Valens (II.16 in Pingree?s edition, transl. Riley p. 30) gives these significations for six of the places or houses (in addition to some of the lots and the midheaven):

The God (9th house): the father
The Goddess (3rd house): the mother

The Good Daimon (11th house): children
The Good Fortune (5th house): marriage

The Bad Daimon (12th house): diseases
The Bad Fortune (6th house): injuries

These are obviously related to the joys of the lights, the benefics and the malefics, respectively, and at least one of them ? that of the 9th house for the father ? seems to have survived the transmission into India. But is this list, or elements of it, found elsewhere in the Greek astrological corpus, or only in Valens?
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

4
Martin Gansten wrote:I don't think so, no. And I doubt Valens was Jewish. :)
:shock:

Was there any Saudi arabia during Valens' time and how did the Greeks drive their cars without the oil :?

I meant, if there was similar concept of Godfather during the older greek period as well.

Anyways,changing the subject completely :
Something got lost in translation somewhere.

Greeks use Saturn and Sun for the lot of father and when Saturn is combust by sun( ie the lot would't move much) they used two very different signifactors- Jupiter and mars.

Whereas, the arabs later only substituted Saturn with Jupiter and kept the sun as such.
Maybe, the Greek idea of lots was very different and hence also the whole concept of astrology was different.


http://www.astro.com/astrology/in_fortune_e.htmLot of the Father
Day Lot = Asc. + Sa - Su
Night Lot = Asc. + Su - Sa

If Saturn is within 17 degrees of the Sun use this formula according to the Greek sources.

Day or Night Lot = Asc. + Ju - Ma

When Saturn is within 17 degrees of the Sun, Arabic sources used a different formula.

Day Lot = Asc. + Ju - Su
Night Lot = Asc. + Su - Ju

I don't know what happens if both Jupiter and Saturn are within 17 degrees of the Sun, but otherwise I prefer the Arabic formula when Saturn is close to the Sun.

5
No doubt many things have been lost, both in translation and otherwise. What interests me here, though, is something that apparently wasn't lost (at least not in the eastern transmission), namely, the idea of the 9th house signifying the father. I haven't seen it in other Greek sources than Valens, but I doubt he made it up.

As for the Arabs, I don't think their concept of astrology was fundamentally different from that of the Greeks. Arabic-language authors synthesized ideas derived from Persian, Byzantine, Syrian and Indian astrologers; but most of those ideas can be traced to Greek-language authors in the centuries around the beginning of the Common Era.
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

8
Yes, Martin, I only ever saw it referenced in Jaimini Upadesa Sutras and Brihat Parasara Hora Sastra.

I just rate the Sanskrit texts as superior, and feel that the later the texts, the more diluted they become - especially when it comes to what the houses are supposed to represent.
If it's not astronomically true, it's not astrologically true.

9
Hi Martin,

this passage of Valens seems to be unique in Hellenistic, or say, Western astrological literature. The father is, however, universally associated with the Sun, which is in turn rejoices in the 9th place. A peculiar feature of this passage (which otherwise sounds genuine, at least two manuscripts of different branches agree in the text) is exactly that first it lists the topical places that are the joys of the planets: the 9th > the Sun > the father, the 3rd > the Moon > the mother, the 11th > Jupiter > children, the 5th > Venus > marriage, the 12th > Saturn > illnesses, the 6th > Mars > injuries, and finally the 1st > Mercury > life and wealth, which is also associated with the lot of fortune.

But I would be cautious to assume without hesitation that this very passage or its source/derived text was transmitted to India, since it may be due to independent development. Moreover, this passage can also be an interpolation as, although some parallels are found here and there, it doesn't really match with 2.4-15 (the chapters immediately preceding) or 4.12 (the description of the 12 places), and certain pieces of information, like this aforementioned association of the 9th place with the father, are used nowhere.

10
Thank you, Levente. The passage in question may well have been interpolated into Valens' text (although internal consistency is not exactly Valens' signature feature!), but someone wrote it, in Greek, presumably quite early on.

An independent Indian development is of course possible, but offhand I can't think of any other instance of Indian authors reassigning a signification to a different place/house -- and the father is a major signification. The Indians typically stay quite close to the standard lists of correspondences that we know from Greek sources, although they naturally adapt them to the Indian cultural context. There would seem to be no cultural reason to reassign the father to the 9th rather than the 4th, so I do think it more likely that this stray doctrine somehow made it to India (while it was forgotten in the 'west').
https://astrology.martingansten.com/

12
Yes, I agree that Valens is notoriously not consistent, so the passage can be genuine as well. Yet the Anthologies is apparently interpolated anyway.

I think the other important question is which the earliest Indian source for this idea is. I've checked the Yavanaj?taka and Var?hamihira's B?hajj?taka, but I don't see it there. Do you have any ideas?