"What Caused Our Failure?" Retrospective Practice

1
http://i59.tinypic.com/333xx91.jpg

The querent posed the question, "What Caused Our Failure?" about a past event. It looks like a valid chart, based on the close correspondence of the chart with real-life events.

Twenty three Capricorn rises. The querent is represented by Saturn in the tenth, the quesited is Moon in the fourth. The question concerns a potential love relationship that was never realized. In a retrospective question, we look at the separating aspects of the Moon in her current sign.

The querent has been writing a book about the quesited. There has been much speculation about why the two never got together or married prior to the death of the quesited seventeen years ago.

I'm posting this as a practice chart for those who would like to make an attempt. I will be following up within the week with the real-life details that correspond with the indications of the chart.

Best,

Sprilhelix
Last edited by spirlhelix on Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

More Clues

4
I think it's fair to give a little more background. The quesited was a singer-songwriter; the querent had just gone through a bitter divorce. The contact between the two had been extremely limited during her thirteen-year marriage.

The fixed stars have useful information in this chart.

Knowledge of decumbiture is also helpful here.
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

5
Hello, spirlhelix!

This is a bit upside-down situation :) - I'm used to mystery Natal charts in which we try to get as many info about the person's life from the planetary positions and Horary charts for Questions with known background in which we try to nail down the most probable outcome. Here, we basically have no background (were both of them single, what was their age at the time, what is his profession etc. ), which makes it a bit trickier but, I'll share some of my impressions.
One thing that I would like to know, 'tho, is whether the Querent started writing the book after they separated or did the unconsumed relationship begging while she was writing the book.

The Moon in this chart is very non-receptive, I'm not surprised to find out that the question investigates an impossible relationship.
The distribution of the main rulers is problematic even without a bad mutual reception. I'm never happy when I see that a couple is ruled by Moon and Saturn- these two energies just doesn't mix well. And, whilst they could make a great tandem in some other life situations, in relationships where people need to be able to reach a certain level of equality and balance, they're hardly capable of achieving that kind of balance. It's like touching a piece of harsh, black leather fabric and hoping to see and feel gentle, pure white silk in it.
A similar thing often happens with the other luminary, as well, Sun/Saturn don't look like the ultimate example of a happy couple although, I'd put more money on them.

Saturn is cold and unapproachable. He is strict, his manners are not very gentle and he doesn't act in the moment - rather, he needs time, experience and age. The Moon is gentle and can be easily hurt which is why contacts with Saturnian nature are always on the edge of frustration.
Another thing that i don't like about this combination in love questions is that, Moon-Saturn aspects, even when they're harmonious, usually suggest some kind of coldness, rejection, distance, alienation. And, in order for a couple represented by these two planets to establish a relationship, we need to see their planets brought together by an aspect. So, everything starts from a trouble. :)

To summarize, it looks as if there was a huge dis-balance between the two of them to begin with.

Now, obviously, one of the potential reasons for a doomed relationship can be a complete non-interest of one of the parties for the opposite sex but, that kind of reason I would not dare looking for in a Horary chart.

Furthermore, their rulers are placed along the 4/10 axis which is clearly suggesting that it is exactly the symbolism of this axis that brought them together however, it may have also separated them (as the planets are forming an opposition). This is exactly why I asked about the time when the book was written. Namely, the shape of the 10th cusp is pretty descriptive of the Querent's activity and focus- her ruler went onto MC (profession, public life etc.), it is conjunct venus-L9 (literature) and Sun (the ruler of the intercepted 7th - partnerships, marriages, men in her life).
The Sun on such an important spot alone carries a very strong message, obviously.

The two planets are separating from an opposition; the Moon is beautifully placed where it is, essentially and accidentally strong and well received by Saturn. However, unable to greet Saturn in his own home as Saturn went into the sign where the Moon cannot offer a hand- she was standing in an unfruitful terrain all along.
She was also, probably, much stronger than him. The houses in which their rulers are hiding are potentially indicating that either home or professional life acted as one of the main prohibitors but the intercepted sign and planets inside the 7th that connects both planets with squares has to be important. Was any of them occupied at the time they met?

The Poet and the Muse

6
Hi, Agayla

I think you hit on some strong points. The meeting of these two individuals is not reflected, as far as I can see, on this chart. Rather, this chart reflects their eventual separation. The Moon Void of Course reflects the backward-looking action of this question.

This question is being asked seventeen years after the death of the quesited.

Here, Moon VOC does not mean, "Nothing will happen," but rather, "The action is in the past." We can look at the most recent separating aspect for the most recent action, backing up to the previous separating aspect, etc.

More background:

They met at college about twenty three years prior to his death. She married someone else, he pined for her (reflected indirectly in his songwriting). The marriage was abusive, probably leaving her with a case of PTSD--possibly suggested by Mars in her twelfth. Her reception for Mars is great; for him, very little.

She was a sign language interpreter at the time of his death, and he was a successful singer-songwriter.

She began writing eleven years after his death, and the book was published thirteen years following his death. She is now engaged in writing a sequel to the initial book, which is about his creative process.

I'm curious to know why you find her (Saturn in Scorpio) stronger than him (Moon in Taurus). Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Very brave of you.

Best,

Spirlhelix
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"

7
Hi, again!

Thanks for the update. Oh, what a story, aye?! Great loves are always sad! :-cry

Before I answer your questions, I'd like to share a comment of a technical nature:
Here, Moon VOC does not mean, "Nothing will happen," but rather, "The action is in the past." We can look at the most recent separating aspect for the most recent action, backing up to the previous separating aspect, etc.
That's exactly why I don't think such charts are always a good choice. A few years ago, my ex boyfriend whom I dated throughout my university years (and later), contacted me, said that he was visiting my hometown and asked if I wanted to see him. I had not seen him in years before that and, our separation had left a very bitter taste in my mouth. No matter how much time had passed since then, he was just not someone I would enjoy talking to over a cup of coffee. I initially turned him down but, then I started negotiating with myself. 4 days later, I still didn't know if I should see him. So, I cast a chart. Only to find out absolutely nothing. :) I didn't know which aspect represents my current attitude, which one describes our past relationship (if any, given the time passed), which one suggests that it would be a good or a bad idea...
To this day, i don't know how to read it. I'm not even sure if it is readable.

It is very logical that, when the only person who can provide some answers to your questions passes away, you seek to find them in another place. Only, I'm not sure if Horary is capable of delivering them. In addition, even the most experienced Horary astrologers just don't see such charts often enough to approach them securely and courageously.

Ok, now, onto the second part:
I'm curious to know why you find her (Saturn in Scorpio) stronger than him (Moon in Taurus)
I never, ever, do this but, I'll have to quote myself here :lol: :
It's like touching a piece of harsh, black leather fabric and hoping to see and feel gentle, pure white silk in it.
See, this is exactly why- because the energies are just so drastically different. I have to say that, what actually attracted me in this case, was the fact that the male party gets the Moon; it's not uncommon and I've seen such charts but this distribution of rulers always appeals to me.
He was the poet, not her although we usually instantly assume that poetic approach to life is reserved for women and expect he Moon to rule them. (Moon in the rulership of Venus is a lovely ruler for a poet)!

He wrote songs to, for and about her....what more can a woman ask for?! Oh, wait, there one thing that's by far better than being someone's muse - marrying a jerk who beats the hell out of you! How non-romantic! She picked the harsher version of the future - that's a Saturn ruled style. She didn't start drowning in his lyrics- instead, she thought that belonged into a more Saturnian surroundings.
At the time, she probably picked what she thought was a safer and more serious option - the trouble is that she picked the wrong man.

What you're mentioning, 'tho, explains the crowdy 4th/10th cusps to bits. Moon inside the rulership of Venus writes songs and turns it into a profession (his derived MC) about a woman (his dispositor) whom he is separated from (ooposition). The fact that this very Venus is conjunct the planet of popularity on the radical MC as well as the fact that her ruler is there also make a lot of sense.

possibly suggested by Mars in her twelfth. Her reception for Mars is great; for him, very little.
tTrue. Moreover, Mars and Saturn are in a mutual reception by rulerships which could be a part of the story about her abusive domestic life. However, i'm still pretty sure that the interception inside the 7th (another man), and the planet sitting there (Jupiter) have a huge role in this as well. She is receiving a square from him (abusiveness) but so is L7 (another man steals his woman and doesn't treat her well).

So, in a nutshell- it is expected that the person ruled by Saturn (especially if well dignified) gets more votes in terms of strictness, seriousness...and, yes, coldness. in addition, his soft lyrics may have sounded a bit too non-masculine for a person described by this planet. She wanted a Popeye. Unfortunately, she gets Bluto instead.

I also mentioned the time and age- her being ruled by Saturn is also very indicative of the time that needed to pass before she actually opened this topic. She has had a lifetime to go back to this man but she never did. Instead, almost 2 decades after his death, she wants to find out "What went wrong?". She needed to reach a mature age and to be able to look back at the whole relationship and start asking questions. Yet another reason why Moon and Saturn don't make a good couple- as harsh as it may sound - Moon can die waiting for Saturn to make up her mind.

Thanks for a very intriguing chart, btw!

Aglaya

The Poet and the Muse

8
Thanks for sharing your perspectives, Agyala!

You have come up with some interesting ideas from the chart. I'm still leaving it up, though, for a couple more days before I post my final answer in case a few more brave souls decide to chime in.

Still left to explore: Fixed stars (very significant) and essential dignities. How does this man really feel about her? What motivates him? What do the dignities say?

Also, what is the most significant thing we know about this couple's failure?
In the end, he died. Are there any signs of his death on the chart? A separating aspect of the Moon, for example? Which one--or is there more than one?

This is where decumbiture rules come in handy.

Best,

Pam
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"